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back to article PayPal is bleeding market share and it's all eBay's fault

Six years ago, PayPal could claim a 91 per cent market share in the US. Today it's struggling to claim long-term relevance in the surging online payments market, the market it helped to create. The problem isn't really a matter of functionality, it's a matter of focus and being able to sell its new services clearly and concisely …

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That and...

That and ebay/paypal are greedy bastards who double dip you.

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Re: That and...

Indeed.

Personally, I'd love to see the 'revenue' and 'registered users' graphs with markers for everytime they added to or bumped the pricing model in ebay. I'd put real money down that they showed a decrease every time.

They really do take the piss now.

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Re: That and...

Agreed. eBay grabs 9% and then PayPal grabs another 2.9% plus a $0.30 service charge. On top of that, eBay facilitates buyer's committing fraud via their "Buyers Assurance" program whereby the buyer claims the item was not described properly, gets an instant refund (yet the seller still has to pay all of the fees) and the buyer ships an empty box back (since eBay wants a tracking number). You the seller are then down basically 112% since you are out the money. fees and the item.

It's small wonder PayPal's association with eBay is causing it to lose market share.

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Joke

Re: That and...

A measly 12%? Sheesh, you guys should use iTunes.

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Re: That and...

no one, ever, in the whole world, should use that

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Re: That and...

or with tax 10% + 3.4% (+20p or $0.30)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: That and...

We need some rather clever people or a heavyweight in the industry (Google, MickeySoft) to provide some competition. Not to kill them off but lower the costs somewhat.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: That and...

I suppose they should do it for free then? What about Estate Agents?

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Re: That and...

They're greedy, but they charge what the market is willing to pay.

I hate paying their fees, but it's still worth using ebay because of the high prices that customers are willing to pay for my listings. Whats the alternative - Gumtree? Cash Converters? You will make far less money on either of these options even when fees are considered.

What we really need is some true competition for ebay.

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Anonymous Coward

Scammers

Are absolutely killing paypal, and the morons in charge couldn't give a f**k.

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Re: That and...

I'd say they triple dip you, Listing fee, Final Value Fee, and Paypal Fee (which eBay force you to use). Fuckers they are and if there was decent competition I'd jump ship in a heartbeat.

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Anonymous Coward

The main reason I don't use eBay...

...is the enforced PayPal tie-in. PayPal's idea of customer service is as palatable as Bob Diamond's idea of his own entitlement. Horrible company.

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Re: The main reason I don't use eBay...

"...is the enforced PayPal tie-in. PayPal's idea of customer service is as palatable as Bob Diamond's idea of his own entitlement. Horrible company."

Paypal support employs monkeys. There isn't anyone there with common sense or authority to do anything useful. Had a payment go to the wrong email address (typo) and I didn't want to cancel the payment and make the customer do it again. Rang paypal. They can't help me as I have to either cancel or make the account and then transfer to the right account.

I make the account. Can't transfer, have to verify the account by linking to a bank account even though I want it to go to the right paypal account and not the bank account.

I link the bank account and verify it. Still can't transfer it. Have to send copies of my driver's licence, utility bills, DNA, shoe size and favorite sexual position to prove who I can before I can transfer to a paypal account that I had already done that.

Six weeks later I make the one transfer and delete the wrong account. Yes the typo was my fault but my god did Paypal make it hard to fix the mistake. Their support was totally useless and unhelpful.

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Re: That and...

Google started to, but backed off when Ebay dropped all their advertising.

Ebay is one of their biggest buyers of adwords and they will take the bird in the hand every time.

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Anonymous Coward

No, the real failure is that PayPal screws you over

I've lost count of the number of buyers, businesses and charitiable organisations that have been screwed over by the PayPal "dispute resolution" system.

They have a habit of just taking all the money away (not just the disputed amount) for an indeterminate amount of time, with no apparent care for what that means to their customers. On top of that it seems well-nigh impossible to determine what happened and what needs to be done to sort it out.

As knowledge of the way that PayPal's dispute resolution operates has spread, is it any surprise that people do not want to do business with them any more?

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And THAT is why PayPal will never be a bank. I don't give a flying monkey's that they signed a charter, a bank operating under the law cannot prevent you from accessing YOUR money without a court order.

PayPal deems itself above the law and that is simply not acceptable.

Personally I don't care either about Ebay or about PayPal. Ebay was a great idea and had a wonderful start before the suits wrecked it, but it may yet have some use left. PayPal, on the other hand, should simply die, and it is a good thing that the competition is starting in the online payment arena because Lord knows it needs it.

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all the other solutions mentioned in the article are USA only. No good for the UK let alone other European countries. Only Google checkout and PayPal work outside of the USA which is the fundamental flaw in this article.

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Moneybookers (now skrill) are UK based and offer the same functions as Paypal do and no merchant account needed so great for small businesses. If you use Prestashop open source cart then you get a preferential rate as well (cheaper than paypal). Only problem i have found since setting them up on a few websites is that their customer services can take ages to reply to questions send through their merchant support and they hold a reserve for 30 days to cover chargebacks

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What's all the fuss about?

Bank giro transfers are easy, secure and cheap in the SEPA (Single European Payment Area).

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Re: What's all the fuss about?

All the cheapest stuff is in the US and other non-EU places though. I restore pinball machines in my spare time, even after customs and shipping it's often far cheaper to buy parts from the US. All those US companies and 'mom n pop' type supplies accept Paypal.

Paypal is 'too big to fail' at this point, not sure how much time analysts spend in the real world.

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WTF?

@Charlie Clark, Re: SEPA

Bank fee for IBAN transfer of 12EURos from Ukraine to SEPA is 15EUR. And they say PayPal is greedy?

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Thats funny

because I stopped using eBay because they insisted on using PayPal for pretty much all transactions, and as mentioned above, PayPal are a double dipping bunch of bastards who make full use of the fact that they aren't regulated as heavily as a bank.

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Re: Thats funny

With you on the bit about PayPal being useless overcharging gits, but I thought a judge or someone else important had decreed that they were a de facto bank and as such had to register as one and be regulated?

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Re: Thats funny

Possibly, but once I blacklist a company, they don't tend to get off the list because I stop paying any attention to them, they could be the paragon of virtue right now and I wouldn't have a clue.

Beside, the blacklist is there for 2 things

1) to protect myself against people who've proven they can't be trusted

2) punishment

With regard to 2, the punishment isn't about trying to make them change their behaviour, and so it's not about to be lifted even if they started behaving well, it's about giving the money they may have earned from me to their competition until such time as their competition do something stupid as well.

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Re: Thats funny

In some places PayPal is a bank, in some places it isn't. The European arm is "licenced as a Luxembourg credit institution" according to

https://www.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/about-outside

possibly for the same reason that casinos are located on Native American reservations.

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Re: de facto bank

Bank, schmank. If the average punter can't be assured of his cash flow in a timely manner because the arbitration and/or legal process takes too long, he bags the service. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. And it doesn't matter how cool, hip, or trendy the back-end tech wonkery behind it is.

As far as I've been able to tell, Paypal's sole raison de tre was to allow kiddies who can't be issued credit cards a way to pay for online purchases. Visa, Mastercard, Discover, Amex, etc. and their various subsidiaries work for just about everybody else.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: de facto bank

No. It allows you to carry out financial transactions but prevents your credit card number being sent to smaller, and possibly dubious, firms or their employees.

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Re: Thats funny

They are registered with the Luxembourg FSA as an electronic money issuer. That isn't quite the same thing as a bank. They have some regulation, but not as much.

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Pint

Re: Thats funny

It's nice to know I'm not the only one who maintains a blacklist of companies to never do business with.

Here, have one on me.

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ebay final value cap almost doubled on 10th July

Well, ebay obviously feel comfortable enough to double the cap on the final value fee.

Before 10th July: £1000 sale, ebay get 10% of £400 = £40

After 10th July: ebay get 10% of £750 = £75

Plus, the paypal double dip of 3.4%

Plus the risk that paypal do not investigate a seller complaint properly, and take the whole lot

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Another thing I found to my cost on one occasion when a sale was voided and item returned, that when the vendor refunded my money paypal took another commission on that! Can that be legal anywhere in the world?

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That will be because the buyer made a second payment, rather than use the proper refund mechanism. Returned payments do not incur a fee.

Paypal are generally gits; but in this case it is user error.

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MJI
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Returned payments

They do charge you - not much but they do

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Anonymous Coward

greedy

eBay and PayPal are greedy rip off merchants, I was really into eBaying a few years back but due to thier total rip off fee's an eBay business didnt work out so folded that one

I've also noticed that they make you accept PayPal and make out its all about 'helping' and all that - no its not, do you think we're thick? Its about maximising profits at the expense of screwing everyone over.

can't wait till ebay and paypal get their comeupance

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MJI
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Re: greedy

I cannot afford to sell cheap things now.

I stick them on Greencycle or charity bags, not worth the effort now due to fees

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Stop

The problem is PayPal itself.

The problem isn't really a matter of functionality, it's a matter of PayPal and eBay being greedy and unethical in their business practices.

When eBay stopped allowing money orders as an acceptable form of payment and forced PayPal or local pickup as the only options for individuals, I stopped using eBay.

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Re: The problem is PayPal itself.

eBay stopped taking money orders after miscreants discovered a way to FAKE them.

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Anonymous Coward

You found the problem

If it was Amazon buying paypal, they would do couple of "it is easier this way" type tricks but they would never, ever remove other options like ebay did. It is because Amazon should only care about selling stuff and paypal should still compete with others to convince them.

That is why Amazon is Amazon and ebay is ebay.

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800,000 programmers?

"At its founding, X.commerce had a builtin audience of nearly 800,000 programmers, derived from counting eBay, Magento, and PayPal developers."

So more than 1 in 10,000 of the entire human race is now an e-commerce programmer?

I think the 1980s just called and Douglas Adams wants his telephone sanitation engineers back.

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Re: 800,000 programmers?

That joke only has two arguments, not three.

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Re: 800,000 programmers?

Perhaps. Think of it as three jokes in one.

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eBay/PayPal Fees = Rip Off

Each year it seems eBay increases its fees for making a sale and force users to pay again via the utilisation of PayPal - given they are the same company in reality they charge you twice for the same service.

As for the 'supposed' buyer protection, another ripoff, if anything goes wrong either the buyer or seller have to wait weeks before anything is done and then pay more fees.

Best thing is to put a listing on eBay and remove it before the end of the listing period and arrange a private sale with one of the higher bidders if your actual required price has been achieved - indeed, by cutting out eBay both sides if its quite expensive can save about £100 between them - you can use PayPal in the UK to send a gift payment for zero, or better still, take cash only via a personal collection.

I. like many eBay users feel ripped off by their service, the fees are way too high - they and PayPal are money grabbing bastards full stop - I hope they fail in time!!!!

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Re: eBay/PayPal Fees = Rip Off

Not that I disagree with anything said against eBay or PayPal, but if I was that bidder I wouldn't trust that private sale.

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Anonymous Coward

horrific support

I tried integrating with x-commerce and the level of support is abysmal ... they have a java library which doesn't actually work and there are no plans to fix it ... way to go paypal :)

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"a sort of e-commerce operating system" ... using that metaphor doesn't help to elucidate what developers are supposed to do with X.commerce.

Oh come on, of course it does. We can leverage it to empower user communities with real-time transactions through a crowdsourced social networking meta-service.

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Pint

Buzz word heaven!

Sir,

That takes the prize for PR gibberish of the week. It should get 100%, but you failed to include the words 'stakeholders' and 'outcomes'.

Have one on me!

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No alternative to PayPal here

Outside of the USA and UK it's PayPal for small online business or nothing. Here in France Google Checkout has never been available for merchants. As for the rest...

Crap as PayPal frequently are, at least they could be bothered to see beyond their own national borders and set up a proper international system that, by and large, seems to work most of the time. Where I live there's simply no viable alternative.

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Re: No alternative to PayPal here

Quite right - for small businesses wanting to dabble in a bit of online trading Paypal is hard to beat. Easy to set up, no annual fees, no set-up fees, quite reasonable transaction charges (especially for charities). Beats the hell out of Worldpay etc.

Disputes are a bit of an issue - one client recently had a payment reversed when the customer said they'd never actually bought anything from my client - after giving details of the IP address, date, time etc, and a phone call to discuss it all the outcome was the customer saying"Oh, did I buy those from you? I thought they came from someone else." - It then took over two months to get the money credited again, but, according to Paypal, that's because the Credit Card companies flatly refuse to cough up again for 75 days, even when the customer admits it's actually all kosher.

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Re: No alternative to PayPal here

Moneybookers and Dalpay can help you outside USA/UK and their prices didn't compare too badly with PayPal the last time I checked. I have helped a few people set up both systems and as far as I know all of them are quite happy.

There are probably a few other payment processors that aren't too expensive, it's just a question of finding them.

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