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back to article Viviane Reding says imitate US and form FEDERAL EUROPE

Viviane Reding, VP of the European Commission, has published an open letter calling for a Federal Europe, modelled on the USA, claiming the only way out of the financial crisis is consolidation of all the participating countries into a single administration. The letter, published on the same day that European leaders are meeting …

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I Fully support the Federalization of the EU, it's something I have wanted to see for a long time.

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Re: Nights_are_Long

So, after they f*ck up the finances the first time round by ignoring their own rules and letting walking-wounded economies like Greece in, all in the name of "euro-sociallism", and then even Fwance and Germany breaking their own borrowing rules (http://www.channel4.com/news/france-and-germany-have-broken-borrowing-rules), now they want to make an end play for total control? Yeah, I'm very enthusiastic - NOT!

If you fully-support it you must be working in a competing economy.

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Here's hoping for your sake

that it goes better than the federalization of the US did.

I'm also amused to see that everyone's acting like this is a new idea or something, rather than yet another universalist export from the United States. Yep, folks, the EU -- and the increased consolidation of same now being mooted -- is entirely a European idea, hatched de novo in Brussels without any influence from what is still the world's most meddlesome progressive empire, if no longer the world's most powerful empire of any stripe -- and the Bolsheviks came up with it all on their own, too, and certainly weren't following after the best American progressive thinkers.

Sure.

(And if you don't believe there can be any such thing as "progressive empire" -- well, enjoy the Kool-Aid, I guess.)

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Re: Nights_are_Long

Matt I live and work in the UK, I work for one of the largest Employer in Liverpool who is one of the most profitable company's in the UK, so please don't make assumptions.

I am a Federalist as it is the only way forward, we have a great past but now we are a small wet rock of the Coast of Europe and the way forward is unification or we stand alone and fall.

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Unification as the only way forward

Talk of making assumptions -- where the hell do you get that idea? Star Trek?

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Re: Nights_are_Long

".....I work for one of the largest Employer in Liverpool...." Must ignore the chance to make cheap dig about Liverpool and employment!

"....I am a Federalist....." What a surprise! You're from Liverpool, home of the Militant Tendancy, so I'm not surprised you'd be falling for a socialist fairytale masquerading as an economic plan.

"....we are a small wet rock of the Coast of Europe...." Us and the other wet rock (Denmark), plus a certain snow-clad one (Switzerland) seem to be doing a lot better out of the Euro than those in it. Apart from Germany, they're all struggling, even the Fwench are fiddling their accounts to the tune of 10Bn Euros to try and get their Triple-A rating back. There is no reason whatsoever that a common market like the EU should be forced into a common bank UNLESS you are Germany and want to dominate all the members of the group. Being outside the Euro but in the Common Market gives us much more flexibility.

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Anonymous Coward

So... who do they let into the new Federation? Clearly the Euro folks weren't quite picky enough about who got to join the single currency, and now look at the mess that's in.

Seems like there is limited incentive for the folk with the actual money (eg. Germany) to shackle themselves to a few hundred million debt ridden would-be citizens.

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Pint

I for one welcome...

Closer integration is the core reason behind the EU and the Euro and it still makes sense. I do think a more stream lined governance model is needed to realise it. I'm a republican so that seems a natural model to me, but that republic needs to be less of a warm body democracy because otherwise we'll end up with two many factions to make any decision possible. National sovereignty doesn't mean much in an interconnected world.

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'Republican' my ass

You're a Communist internationalist, is what you are, and moreover one who's too ignorant to know the origins of his own received political wisdom. (You know -- just like all the rest of 'em.)

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Re: Here's hoping for your sake

I was under the impression that the first person to suggest a "United States of Europe", was Napoleon Bonaparte while exiled to St Helina

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Re: Nights_are_Long

The recent experience of a much smaller wetter rock (Iceland) would suggest otherwise.

Unlike Greece or Ireland they didn't have the EU to look after them so when they found themselves in real trouble they didn't have the prospect of being bailed out. So they defaulted, spent a year in the shit and have now returned to 4% growth.

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Re: Nights_are_Long

Your statements are nonsensical and provide no rational argument for the opinion you express.

"I am a Federalist as it is the only way forward"

Forward to what, to what destination are you heading? I am a Nationalist, and the purpose of a National government is to run it's National services. I see no reason why the individual governments of the nations of Europe are in any way disadvantaged at achieving that task due to their present size.

"we have a great past but now we are a small wet rock of the Coast of Europe"

Insults aside, I assume your point is that our economic position in the world is declining, because other world economies are catching up with our level of development? Well so is the relative economic position of the whole of Europe for the same reason. What does this matter? Provided we maintain a healthy per-capita standard of living and keep out of debt, I have no problem with the rest of the world catching up. The EU will make no difference to this.

"and the way forward is unification or we stand alone and fall."

How is standing alone, i.e. independence not a "way forward"? How is a world of independent nations representing the different wishes of different peoples not a workable model for the future of the world? How will preserving national governments which bring democracy closer to us as individuals cause us to "fall" in any way? Smaller democracies make it easier for us as individuals to effect change. To effect change in a large country like the US you need lots of money. A small country like Iceland, can quickly throw out a corporate-controlled government by one which says to the global bankers "no we will not take on your private debts as out national debt".

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Anonymous Coward

Re: 'Republican' my ass

Joe McCarthy would be so proud of you. Tell him he's Un-American now as well, yeah?

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Devil

Federalization of the EU

It's the least worst option.. but it might already be too late.

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Anonymous Coward

Well the Yanks let Nevada and Tennesee in ;) Which Euro countries match those? What I mean is, I am sure some do ;)

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"So... who do they let into the new Federation?"

Well, I imagine it'll be similar to the Euro, where criteria were drawn up, then whittled down to a point where a few members could just about achieve it 'legitimately', and the rest could cheat to balance the books for a year - such as Italy's selling gold reserves and taxing the proceeds or France's sale of France Telecom.

A United States of Europe is unlikely to succeed - there is too much historical baggage, differences in culture, differences in economic cycles and good old fashioned rivalry. The USA succeeded because of a largely common heritage and language, as well as a short history with little baggage between the participants. Oh, and the economy of the world (let alone the colonies) was much less complex.

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Re: Nights_are_Long

No, it is never the right thing to do, unification is bad mm'kay. I'd rather have the current system over a single egg box thank you :P

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"Joe McCarthy would be proud"

"Un-American?" Why not? His words reveal him to be an internationalist, which means by definition that he has no use for the notion of nations, the US of A emphatically included. What could be more "un-American" than that?

And don't think you're going to upset me with a comparison to McCarthy, either -- Tailgunner Joe may have been a drunk with no more chance than Quixote vs. the windmill, but he did make life hard for a lot of rich Hollywood Reds for a while, and I have to say that doesn't exactly move me to shed any tears.

If you're going to try to shut me up, here's a helpful hint: I am not a progressive, and methods which would generally work to shut up a progressive will not likely work well on me. Try making an argument instead. And if you do, then for pity's sake grow a pair and put at least a nickname next to it, rather than hiding behind the rich boy's affectation? I'd hate to think I was wasting my time arguing with an adolescent.

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Re: Nights_are_Long

There is no reason whatsoever that a common market like the EU should be forced into a common bank UNLESS you are Germany and want to dominate all the members of the group. Being outside the Euro but in the Common Market gives us much more flexibility.

Flexibility to monetize your debt. Remind me not to hold any of your currency, ok?

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How much Euro-failure would it take to convince you that Federalization is a bad idea? Given the EU has been staggering from one miserable decision to another for almost 2 decades, surely giving them even more power has to be a bad idea?

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Re: the first person to suggest a "United States of Europe"

Napoleon, eh? That could only be because Julius Caesar didn't have a word for "state".

But I don't support either of them had a democratic entity in mind and I think that's quite enough of a difference to disqualify their claims to precedent. If done right it would be no worse that a United Kingdom of various off-shore islands.

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I am an enthusiastic European and a passionate democrat.

So this is the theoretical right answer.

But it will fail because there are few Europeans around. A recent Newsnight discussion centred on what will be best for Britain, not what is best for Europe which happens to be the very best for Britain. And in consequence of creating this great continent wide superstructure by stealth few care for the continent and its people. We have no pan Europe culture, no common newspapers or tv. There are strange outcrops of European culture as a song contest, a footie competition and F1.

Who cares.

It won't work.

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Re: 'Republican' my ass

"You're a Communist internationalist"

Would it be drawing a long bow to suggest that you might be an American?

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Big Brother

You're not the only one "wanting to see it for a long time" ...

'During a meeting on 5 August 1943, Monnet declared to the Committee:

"There will be no peace in Europe, if the states are reconstituted on the basis of national sovereignty... The countries of Europe are too small to guarantee their peoples the necessary prosperity and social development. The European states must constitute themselves into a federation..." ... As the head of France's General Planning Commission, Monnet was the real author of what has become known as the 1950 Schuman Plan to create the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC), forerunner of the Common Market.' : -- Wikipedia

And the Common Market was, of course, the forerunner of the EU. This is a very long-term scheme that is now rapidly coming to a carefully planned and manipulated fruition. The current 'economic crisis' is a vital, and deliberately engineered part of that plan - forcing all the eurozone states into subservience to the real rulers of the EU. Now that that has been accomplished, their 'front men' can risk openly calling for a central EU government, and Reding is not the only one currently taking part in that carefully orchestrated brainwashing campaign. Not long ago such calls would have been greeted with derision or horror; but not now. Like greedy, stupid pheasants that have been led into a trap with a trail of free handout food, the Eurozone countries have nowhere else to go.

The real concern of these states should be that such a disparate mess as the EU is unlikely to work unless it is centrally governed by those who cannot be disobeyed; whatever label they hang on themselves. And the EU has been clever enough to effectively demonstrate that, with its cynically engineered economic crisis, which only it can resolve by taking more power from the states. Well, fancy that.

With the EU's appalling track record on democracy, the people of the Eurozone should be very worried. But hey, they won't have to change their money.

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Re: 'Republican' my ass

I'm an American Jacobite. I'll wait until you've finished laughing -- actually, I get that reaction about two times in ten, the rest being roughly seven and a half blank stares and say two-thirds of a punch in the mouth, on average. It is an utterly ridiculous thing to say in any case, but I've got a great sense of humor so that's okay by me.

I would note, if it's necessary, that I don't use 'republican' here in the capital-R sense common in the States, notwithstanding its presence at the start of a title I wrote; I use it in the same sense as the Red to whom I responded, that is, one who considers the republic an ideal, or at least a highly desirable, form of government. For any other imprecise or erroneous usage I claim entire culpability.

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Big Brother

To be honest about the USA succeeding, (and the CSA not.) was less to do with common heritage or language was that the USA could put more farmboys with more weapons in the on the battlefield that their southern counterparts and have a bigger navy.

The good lady has her terminology mixed up as Europe is somewhat of a federal system now, (how loose you could argue about for hours). What she wants is a Centralized system with the 'right' sort of people running it with plenty of avenues for Democracy but none of its spirit.

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Re: "Joe McCarthy would be proud"

indeed, after the reds had accused everyone not jumping on the war band wagon of being in bed with Hitler or one of the Mitford Sisters depending on your preference.

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WTF?

Re: 'Republican' my ass

You're unhappy with the parliaments interferance in rights of royal sucession?

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Re: Nights_are_Long

Finland and Austria seem to be doing all right as well. I'm still with your sentiment that the UK should stay the hell out.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: 'Republican' my ass

You do know that Bonnie Prince Charlie was a Catholic born in Rome,who spent a lot of time in Rome and Bologna, who wanted the French Royalist Army to invade Protestant Britain? He failed, escaped on a French ship and then had a merry time chasing the wives of nobility in France. Then he was buried in the Vatican. Nice work if you can get it. I believe at no point did he paint his face blue and shout "Freedom" like some folks think William Wallace did, unless, possibly, in French or Latin. The blue face paint would have messed up his "Macaroni" style bouffant wig in any case.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: 'Republican' my ass

And possibly actually afraid of a centre-right Euro Federation, which looks like what the banks and this lady are pushing. Maybe because it would be direct competition?

Maybe that's why he is pretending everyone is a Red?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: 'Republican' my ass

Apparently the Brownshirts used to get the Jews to sing the "Internationale" at gunpoint, that is, whether or not they knew the words ....

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Re: Re: Nights_are_Long

"....Flexibility to monetize your debt....." I'd much rather monetize the UK's debt than have to pay for that AND the massive debts built up by over-spending, head-in-the-sand, spend-it-like-there's-no-tomorrow socialist governmets of Greece, Spain, etc, etc.

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Re: 'Bonnie Prince Charlie'

Delightful coward! -- straight to character assassination, in the very best leveller tradition. Don't you ever change.

For the record, 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' is dead, and even a Jacobite would scruple at the thought of restoring a corpse to the throne. And, in any case, it's really not your place or mine to be deciding on precisely this king or that king, is it? Parliament going into that business seems to me to be quite where the present trouble started, and the whole point of calling myself a Jacobite is to make clear that I'm in favor of restoring professional government, not just to the Emerald Isle herself but to her wayward colonies as well. Who am I to tell someone, whose profession I do not share, whom in his field would best do a given job? To have the kind of knowledge I'd need to even attempt to choose wisely, I'd need to be a professional in the same field myself.

I know, I know, some half-baked argument about appeal to authority is just rushing to your lips -- but hold off canting at me just a minute and give a little thought to what I'm saying, and you may just find it makes a lot more sense than you're comfortable giving it credit for.

For example: Many of us here are systems administrators. Of those who are -- I'll ask for a show of hands -- how many administer our servers and network equipment by popular vote? Make decisions on equipment upgrades by public acclamation? Anyone? I didn't think so. Hell, most of us won't even let the helpdesk into our server rooms, and for Goddamned good reason!

Why is this? Because we are professionals, trained and experienced in our field, and that training and experience gives us the ability to better understand how to give our users what they need than our users do themselves. That is our job -- it's why, professionally speaking, we exist; if administering a datacenter was simple enough that any ordinary slob could do it, any ordinary slob would do it, and there'd be no more need for us. But it isn't that simple, and so we persist.

Now, tell me truly: Do you really think that governing a polity of willful human beings is less complicated than keeping a room full of computers fed and cared for?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: 'Bonnie Prince Charlie'

Which Emerald Isle colonies were you thinking of exactly? Do tell.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: 'Bonnie Prince Charlie'

Isle of Man maybe? ;)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: 'Republican' my ass

Which King James do you want to restore then, I think we'ŗe out of those at the moment.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "Joe McCarthy would be proud"

Don't see anyone else interested in his private life .... and the only Progressives people talk about in these parts are Genesis and Floyd.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: 'Bonnie Prince Charlie'

Do you wave the Saltire at the St Patrick Day Parades as well? Free Speech, why not.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: 'Republican' my ass

It might be a wild stab in the dark, but perhaps you will have hit your mark. Popinjay. ;)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: 'Bonnie Prince Charlie'

Or Iona ... Staffa might be a good bet in the past ..... ;)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I for one welcome...

"Closer integration is the core reason behind the EU and the Euro and it still makes sense."

Santayana: "Those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them." Thos whole concept of the European union arose from The Schumann plan. In spite of the name, M. Schumann was a French man. His plan of combining the heavy industries - coal and iron and steel - of France and Germany was a wheeze to ensure that France was able to reap the profits from German productivity.

developments along this line led to the European Union and the CAP in which a French peasant with half an acre and a cow would receive subsidies comparable with farmers in other "European" countries with their 15,000 hectares, not producing crops to avoid the notorious food mountains.

The whole idea of Eurpean union is merely an extension of the dream of Napoleon for a united Europe under French domination.

Sadly, the lessons of history were not learned, so we have the mish-mash of the current EU ruled by unelected officials with no accountancy to anyone - least of all the populations of the countries ensnared. "They're the common people - they don't understand the dream of Europe!"

Close integration merely means a Federal States of Europe - fine if we had a Congress and Senate elected but the European peoples, but this won't happen; it will all be decided by "them at the top" and tough luck to all the proles who actually provide the income.

Sory to post anon. but even Europe has its black helicopters in a quieter less obtrusive manifestation.

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'Popinjay' indeed!

I don't dress that well.

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Re: 'Republican' my ass

Yeah, but his son was officially deaclared as "Henry the Ninth Cardinal Duke of York" - never made it into the Stuart Line of succession but became a priest and eventually achieved the Red Hat.

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Re: "Joe McCarthy would be proud"

That wouldn't be Keith Floyd the great cook, would it?

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Re: You're not the only one "wanting to see it for a long time" ...

interesting theory, it could be right.

I recall that I attended a very small, not elite, political meeting three years ago and I posed the question "What will happen when twenty-five million people within the Euro zone are unemployed ?"

No-one was able to answer, indeed no-one thought it a question that needed serious consideration. Now if I could see this then surely the arch schemers were able to see it too, even if their construction was notionally ideal.

So, SleepyJohn, with total respect, what is your evidence ?

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Re: You're not the only one "wanting to see it for a long time" ...

I don't need evidence. As you imply yourself, commonsense tells me the answer.

Either the combined might of the EU's highly-trained, expert economists was unable to foresee the result of throwing endless free handouts and promises of cheap loans at the aspiring Eurozone countries whose only purpose in applying was to get endless free handouts and unrealistic cheap loans, or the whole thing was set up specifically to fail so that lots of thusly bribed countries would end up totally subservient to the political control of the empire-building EU bosses.

Consider this: the moment Germany agrees to the issuing of eurobonds the economic euro crisis will disappear, along with the political independence of every single country in the Eurozone. A country is not independent if another controls its economy. Please do not expect me to believe that the political elites who have constructed the EU did not know exactly that, long before they even proposed the euro. Monnet clearly knew it back in 1943.

These people are building an economic and military super-state to dominate the world, and they don't give a toss about the destruction of democracy or peasants' lives. They may smarm around in drab grey suits looking sombre and respectable, but they have the aspirations, and the morals of Third World dictators. Unlike those crazies, however, they are clever enough to beat the populace into submission with bureaucracy and bullshit rather than bullets and bombs - the former are cheaper, harder to fight against, and don't destroy the infrastructure.

We don't need evidence for any of this, just the eyes of a small boy who does not see the fancy new clothes his elders tell him the Emperor is wearing.

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Joke

I want to be like America...

Yes please, America is like totally the best place in the world ever... Please can we be like them and their coolness?

I want to be able to own a gun, drive a big truck and supersize my deepfriedmeal(C). Also, I quite like the Idea of their politics being so truly democratic. Makes me all warm inside!

Or, let's not eh?

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Headmaster

Re: I want to be like America...

It's a republic, not a democracy. Even if you're trying to joke (but failing), at least TRY not to mislead the idiots who continue to confuse the two.

How lucky for you, that the USA is pushing toward becoming more European. Universal coverage, here we come!

/vomit

For the icon to qualify, I suppose that I'll criticize your "deepfriedmeal" reference.

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Re: I want to be like America...

Aye because there's nae European country famed for feep frying everything from Mars Bars to Pizza! :-)

Well put. I just got a serious headache reading the supreme courts verdict on Obamacare, impressive to see Roberts vote for it rather than follow the conservative line.

A federal europe will have a serious issue, most European countries have a top down form of government, whereas the US states devolved certain powers to a federal government, leaving that federal power often having to fight or bribe states to get laws supported. I can see an equally messy future in Europe. A Federal Europe is not a fix, it just masks the problem for a while. They need to actually fix the problems first then perhaps it may work.

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