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back to article Scotland considers dishing out more iPads to schoolkids

The Scottish government has announced plans to "explore" the option of rolling out more mobile devices to education institutions in the country. Education Secretary Michael Russell revealed the plans on a visit to a primary school in Edinburgh, which is already using technology such as iPads. He said that the government will …

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Anonymous Coward

"... primary school in Edinburgh, which is already using technology such as iPads."

More public money being wasted! Really? Explain why they could not be issued a cheaper tablet? Why the way to expensive for what it is iPad?

Sorry, there is NO justification. The kids would learn just as much with any other tablet.

(Why are people so gay for Apple?)

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Black Helicopters

Why are people so gay for apple?

More accurately why are politicians and BBC presenters "gay" for apple.

Simple answer would be they all have soft science degrees and don't understand technology and have bought into the hype - similar to wind farms whose power output raises and falls on a cubic scale, rather than a controllable linear scale.

Stuck in the belief that if they have a degree from Oxbridge they are qualified to make decisions on anything (see all government IT projects for examples of not understanding tech)

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How about because

People buy computer hardware only as a means of running software. If the software and content you want isn't available on the cheaper tablet then it will sit in a drawer and gather dust, in which case you really have wasted money.

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Re: How about because

because of course millions of school children needing the apps wouldn't create a market for them....

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MGJ
Joke

Re: Why are people so gay for apple?

Of course you need a computing degree to make sweeping generalisations with authority

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Re: How about because

So you want to buy a million tablets (costing what? £200 million for something robust and with a decent spec?) hoping that this will encourage developers to write software that will be ready, tested and approved in a year or two. At the same time the developers know there's a market more than 50 times that size where they are less likely to get pirated.

Good luck with that.

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Why give a primary school kid a tablet at all.

You can't trust em to not smash the TV remote to pieces, let alone 100's of pounds of fruity tablet.

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Re: How about because

And which school-oriented (suitable for GB schools, anyway) applications you have on an iPad?

Or do they need to learn how to use Microsoft Office package? In which case, you can definitely go cheaper than an iPad.

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Stop

Re: How about because

You are kidding right? There are currently just shy of 29,000 apps in the app store under the education category. You should be able to locate a few that are suitable.

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It was good enough for us

What's the obsession with mobile devices for schools. All computer use in schools should be in computer rooms that are monitored and controlled. There should be no need for kids to even own a computer themselves, nevermind requiring something like an iPad.

I know it's not "cool" but it's a he'll of a lot harder to sell them on ebay

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Joke

"You can't trust em to not smash the TV remote to pieces, let alone 100's of pounds of fruity tablet"

Right, better do like those guys in Manchester and give 'em a few pounds of potatoes instead.

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As I recall ...

Edinburgh has about 45,000 Macs in education. It is the natural choice for them.

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Why waste money on tablets at all?

Schools already have too many computers and put kids in front of screens too much of the time. Mandatory reading for LEAs should include Cliff Stoll's High-Tech Heretic and Silicon Snake Oil.

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JDX
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Re: Why waste money on tablets at all?

In primary school it's important to teach the basics of computers as much as it is writing.

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Re: Why waste money on tablets at all?

Using a tablet won't teach you the basics of computers. It will teach you the basics of using a tablet which is as hard as putting your finger on the screen.

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Re: Why waste money on tablets at all?

Oh, and spend the money on books and real lab equipment instead. (And yes, that includes science equipment for primary school, just a different sort.)

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Anonymous Coward

@JDX

What utter crap! Tablets are designed to allow complete morons to use them so there's no educational benefit in using them over real books.

Providing student with real books that they need to read (not cut&paste from) to work is far better.

Try looking at those educational systems in the world that actually produce well educated students.

Almost all are from the far east, and almost none of them play with toys.

Look at a Chinese or Japanese schools and you will typically find computers only where they are specifically necessary for the work (such as Computing, Sciences and in Libraries). Everywhere else there will be Black-boards, Text Books and Exercise books.

The benefits being:

No need for constant power (so its better for the environment).

No need to work in the dark so the overhead projector can be seen.

The teacher has to actually do some work rather than providing death by power point lessons.

The teacher has properly demonstrate how to use basic tools like rulers, compasses,... rather than playing with graphical toys.

The students have to do their own homework (or at the very least read what someone else did for them), so at least they get to practice hand writing.

Student learn the basic skills of using basic tools such as pens, pencils, rulers,...

The other basic need for the UK (and other western countries) is to stop making excuses for the lazy ignorant students. The typical one being the nonsense about Oxbridge taking more kids from private schools that public, the reason is obvious to anyone who is not a moron or a politician.

Kids in private schools are sent there by parents who believe an education is worth getting, as such they will encourage the offspring to work hard and do their home work.

Kids in public education will include whose parents just cannot afford private schooling, these kids usually do OK, thouogh they could often do better in a streamed environment.

The others have parents who don't give a toss, and allow their kids to bunk off, not do home work, take them on holidays in term time, use them help raise the younger siblings or any number of excuses. But it's not their fault they cannot read, do basic maths or get a job; no it's because they were hard done by and they were not given the chances.

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Re: @JDX. I fear greatly for Western kids because of declining educational standards.

I went through the primary and secondary education system without computers and only encountered them in the first year of tertiary education--and even then it was only student batch programming on a mainframe.

Going on what many are posting to El Reg about the need for computers in primary and secondary schools etc., I really wonder how I learned anything at all without them. Right, I actually learned to read and write, do maths including trig identities and calculus, physics, chemistry, history, French etc., etc.--ALL SANS COMPUTERS. TRULY AMAZING!

For a poofteenth of a second my head swelled with a genius feeling then instantly exploded--as most of the student body did just the same! Funny that.

Knowing that I was addicted to the punch card room in my uni days, and seeing the utter addiction that the iPhone/smartphone has brought to millions of naïve and undisciplined users, I hate to think what learning disasters would have befallen me if I'd had a smartphone or computer in primary school days--even the thought of it is horrific. (In another El Reg post today, I referred to the iPhone/smartphone as "totally legal electronic heroin".)

The fact is that much of learning and education requires the student to do imaginative thinking and develop cognitive skills, and for many, these cannot be acquired in an environment full of distractions--and multitudes of 'distractions' are essentially the whole raison d'être behind "electronic heroin".

You're right, what's needed are good teachers, good teaching and a good teaching environment AND books--books don't distract either, in fact they focus mind.

Sure, there are bright ones who've discipline, strong willpower and concentration but they're in the minority--the rest of us would only suffer in such a disruptive environment. Frankly, the combination of computers, bad teaching, ineffective discipline and a curriculum that's based on the parable of 'The Man and the Donkey'--try to please all and you'll please none--is a postmodernist time-bomb awaiting to explode.

I fear greatly for the future of Western kids with the decline in educational standards. Not only can we no longer discipline them at school or home but also they've so many distractions it's a wonder how they can concentrate on something for a few minutes let alone the many hundreds of hours required to acquire even pretty basic skills. The situation's tragic.

As the saying goes "no pain, no gain". And, if you remember the moral from 'Sparky's Magic Piano', you don't acquire skills without lots of hard work either!

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@JDX

There you go again...espousing YOUR opinions before the world audience. But that's OK...because YOUR opinion is the one that matters...right? No one else dare post their thoughts, if they differ from yours. Bullocks.

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Re: @ItsNotMe

Errr! This is a forum. Isn't the idea to express your own opinions and views?

Maybe I'm wrong and it's only YOUR opinion that counts.

I wish I could put in 2 icons, in which case I would put in a double Fail.

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Linux

What are the kids going to learn from these iPads that they could not learn from some cheap desktops or laptops in a computer room?

I wouldn't want to hold the schools back, but I don't think new technology should be shoehorned in just for the sake of it either, and iPads are expensive, less versatile, less upgradeable and will become outdated much faster than a traditional computer would.

The cynical part of me wonders if Apple are pushing this for the same reason MacDonalds sell happy meals - get them familiar young and they will come back as adults.

Tux because it's the closest icon we have to a baby duck. Can we have a baby duck icon please?

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Anonymous Coward

What are the kids going to learn from these iPads that they could not learn from A BOOK?

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Linux

Missing the point

A book is a valid learning tool, but they need to be able use other forms as well.

This obsession with technology is good but *very* misguided. The gov/education service will consider ipads as IT learning. Which it isn't. Yes web is now an important tool but doing it on a fondleslab misses some key things. You can't learn to touch type of a tablet! They are also hideously expensive and subject to getting broken by careless kids (as all kids are btw!). Now apple will no doubt flog them to schools at a knock down price (catch em while they are young) but think about this

HDMI monitor ~£80, Raspberry Pi ~ £25, keyboard and mouse ~ £15, HDMI cable ~ £2, Power Supply and SD card £10

So for £140 quid you can have some kit that will teach them a lot more and stil 'surf the web' etc. And best of all, at £25 I'd be willing to let the little buggers take them home at the weekend!

We are really missing some important things, kids today are (on the whole) shit at computing. They are very good consumers (I watch my 6yr old daughter on my Xoom, Mac, phone etc) and she can navigate her way around like a true pro. But they are amazed at the fact that I can type without looking and 'program' the thing. They even think its quite "cool" that I wrote some software for my phone. What chance have they got of doing that kind of thing if I don't teach them.

My wife is a teacher and has zero interest in computers. Likes her phone for facebook and her PC for a bit of surfing but beyond that doesn't see the point. One of her friends works in a school where they [teachers] have all been issued an ipad. It strikes her [the teacher with said ipad] that its only because the head wanted one and didn't want to buy her own. But they have limited work value.

Problem is MP's think they are the answer, schools think they are the answer but people who work in tech know they are a tool, but not the answer to getting kids doing real computing. This is a huge vanity roll out which will have little to no benefit but a large cost.

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JDX
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>>What are the kids going to learn from these iPads that they could not learn from some cheap desktops or laptops in a computer room?

It said PRIMARY school. Kids can get to grips (no pun) with a touch interface much more intuitive than mouse+keyboard... a 2-3 year old can learn how to navigate an iPad to find which video they want to watch (a friend's kid had an obsession with Toy Story and Cars).

Kind of scary to see a toddler able to do this, but also very interesting.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Missing the point

> HDMI monitor ~£80, Raspberry Pi ~ £25, keyboard and mouse ~ £15, HDMI cable ~ £2, Power Supply and SD card £10

If this setup is intended for a primary school, you'll need to buy a case. Kids can be amazingly creative in destroying stuff

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@JDX

Touch interfaces may be more intuitive for them, but school is not about giving them the easiest thing, it's about teaching them, so they are prepared for adult life and work when they get there. I'm not saying that means we have to make things difficult for the sake of making them difficult, I'm saying they can learn more from using a desktop computer, and then there are the other benefits I listed in my original post too. Primary school kids CAN use desktop computers. They have been doing it for years. When I was at school, we had a mixture BBC Micros and RISC OS. I'm sure kids since then have also managed fine too.

If tablets are so intuitive, then they don't need to be taught how to use them: they will figure it out themselves as and when they come across them. On the other hand, if we teach them from the start that this is what computing is, then we're going to have employers in 20 years time complaining the folk they just took straight out of university can't type, etc. But I suppose that won't matter because they'll be able to find the video they want to watch. Very useful.

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"It said PRIMARY school. Kids can get to grips (no pun) with a touch interface much more intuitive than mouse+keyboard... a 2-3 year old can learn how to navigate an iPad to find which video they want to watch (a friend's kid had an obsession with Toy Story and Cars)."

If I really wanted my kids to use a tablet, I could buy one for 1/3rd the price of the base iPad they could play with, e.g. Archos Child Pad or EasyPad etc. That way when it gets covered in yoghurt or goes smashing to the floor (as it will) I won't feel so mad about it.

I also don't see what the problem is with letting them learn on a computer. My eldest kid is six. He has no problem using a mouse, keyboard and even the web. He begun using the computer at the age of 3 with software such as Learning Ladder.

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Anonymous Coward

Confused.

The titles says iPads, the body of the article says "mobile devices".

Come on.. Lets not play that game.

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(Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

Re: Confused.

iPads is shorter.

C.

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Eh??

I can understand maybe a few iPads if there is a general teaching need that they are well fitted to, but not if the aim is to prepare the children with skills for the outside world. There they will rarely get to use one - the most likely platform for them will be a laptop/desktop.

Let's see cheaper more standard kit in schools, not shininess.

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JDX
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the most likely platform for them will be a laptop/desktop

Possibly not by the time they leave school.

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Meh

Re: Possibly not by the time they leave school.

Well perhaps a broom or spatula, then.

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Headmaster

Do we have addresses for these schools?

I have a "friend" who's interested in sending their "child" there, probably via a closed window in the dark of night but possibly via the opportunist route and simply walk in and out with what they want.

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Schools don't need hardware

I'm sure this arts graduate likes his iPad, that's nice for him, but what schools need is teachers who don't regard computers with superstitious fear born of abject ignorance.

IPads are an especially bad choice, the whole point is that it is a playback device, you play games, access sites and watch movies, basically a 21st century DVD player.

Exactly what can you learn about IT from a DVD player ?

Yes, I know some Reg readers can hack the embedded s/w on a player, but realistically you can't use it for learning about computers, ditto the iPad. I've typed code onto a fondleslab and it was literally painful as well as slow.

So give it a keyboard and to stop them being nicked you tie them to a desk and err what you have is an underpowered PC at twice the cost.

At 500 quid a go, you're talking about 15,000 per class, given the bashing they'll get expect attrition of at least 25% per year, so that's 3,500, fo that money you could train and attract competent IT teachers, but that wouldn't get you in the Guardian would it ?

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JDX
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Exactly what can you learn about IT from a DVD player ?

What? Most iPad usage is for web-browsing or playing games, not simply watching video content.

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Re: What?

But I thought it was for "learning the basics of computing..."

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Anonymous Coward

Oh f**k

Local authorities are really not ready to deal with all this.

Will the minister be making funds available to develop the infrastructure to support all these new toys?

I thought not.

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Nice idea...

...but they should not be using iPads. That's as bad as locking the kids into MS by teaching them how to use Word and calling it "ICT".

Basic Android tablets would be 1) Cheaper and 2) Not locked-in.

Of course, I'd much rather they spent the money on books and lab equipment, rather than trendy-Wendy bullcrap.

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Fandroids are out in force in here...

Seriously, why pass over cheap Android tablets that are "not-relavent tech"? It's more likely that these kids will be using iPads in the future, so teaching using the most popular tech will achieve the better results.

It's the same as using Microsoft products. Okay, they're not cheap, but they're relavent where most of the desktop PCs are using this stuff.

@Dominic Connor, Quant Headhunter: "IPads are an especially bad choice, the whole point is that it is a playback device, you play games, access sites and watch movies, basically a 21st century DVD player.

Exactly what can you learn about IT from a DVD player ?"

Please get your head out of the sand and actually understand it does more than regurgitate data if you use them properly.

Again though, I'd still rather see this money go towards other useful long-term resources or teachers being able to teach a better quality lesson.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Fandroids are out in force in here...

"It's more likely that these kids will be using iPads in the future, so teaching using the most popular tech will achieve the better results."

This is a school - the point is that there is little if anything to suggest that iPads will be de-rigueur in the workplace in the future, so what exactly are you teaching them? If they are using iPads in the future it will be most likely that they have gone to PC World and bought one for home use.

You could say that you are increasing creativity - however a set of paints and paper costs a couple of quid - an iPad costs around £500.

This seems like bandwagon jumping to me.

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Re: Fandroids are out in force in here...

It's not about teaching kids how to use iPads. It's about teaching kids. Tablets in the classroom, including iPads, offer teachers a new way to teach in an interactive environment. Think of it this way: would you rather listen to a lecture or get involved with an interactive learning activity? Until now interactivity in the classroom has been limited to one or two kids at the chalkboard/whiteboard/smartboard at the front of the room. With tablets you get that vital interaction to the whole class at the same time.

I've seen these things used in classrooms with my own eyes and I was amazed. Some teachers use them well and some not so well, but trust me the kids who have them are benefitting.

The argument about using Android instead of iPads because of cost is a valid one. To me, working in a school district that's about to adopt iPads, it seems as though Apple is aggressively targetting schools. They have a very nice sales pitch (yes, I had grains of salt a-plenty as I listened to it) that targets schools specifically. I've not seen anything like that from any Android vendor. Samsung, Motorolla, and Acer (and maybe a few others) are all big enough to offer the same kind of pitch and incentives, but they seem to be either oblivious to the educational market or content to let Apple have it.

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Anonymous Coward

@sisk

Well this would seem to suggest what most people have suspected for a while - teachers, heads, boards of governors, lEAs etc are really fairly dumb. As long as a sales rep from the current hyped up company comes along then the money needs to be wasted on them.

An excuse such as - no other vendor came along so we had to buy the iPADs. What a load of rubbish, how about putting out to tender, doing self research or sticking with the tried and trusted.

What on earth would be wrong with laptops? Cheaper, more useful tools for the future, have myriads of opportunities for teaching including guide, one to one, one to many etc.

Oh, I forgot ... "but..but.. Apple, they told us we needed them". Of course, yes, that'll be worth a TCO, ROI report with a rock solid business case detailing the alternatives and have factual proven results - oh no, it's not a company who has to analyse costs, it's public money.

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Re: @AC

That's a rather ignorant view you've got there. Let's put it this way: you have two companies with very similar products. One of them is just slightly more expensive and is aggressively courting you as a client. The other can't be bothered to send a sales rep to talk to you and sends you the same brochure they send everyone else, aimed at businesses not at all like your own. Which are you going to go with? I agree that they should have considered other vendors (and, in fact, was practically screaming as much to deaf ears while the program was being considered), but to call them dumb for not doing so isn't really fair.

As for laptops, they could do the job well enough, but they are not cheaper. Decent laptops that can withstand the kind of rough use that machines owned by a school district inevitably take cost at a minimum double what iPads do. We've tried less expensive ones and they just don't hold up. We end up spending more money repairing/replacing them that what we spend when we just buy a $1200 laptop to begin with. Also, they would be a horrible, horrible choice of machine for digital textbooks. I'm not sure your argument about them being better tools for the future really has any relevance. We're still going to teach them how to use a PC and we still have our Mac labs for classes in fields where Macs are the standard equipment (like journalism and design). We're not getting rid of our labs or cancelling our computer classes just because the kids have tablets. The graduating class of 2017 will be just as PC literate with their iPads in hand as the class of 2012 is without them (which is pretty good since this district has always been ahead of the curve with technology in the classroom). That being the case, isn't it better to add a tool to their arsenal rather than just giving them more of what they already have?

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It doesn't matter about the cost...

...because England will be paying.

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Re: It doesn't matter about the cost...

@mahatma coat

ABSOLUTE NONSENSE! Scotland MORE than pays its way in this so called union.

in fact if you look at the Scottish economy as taken separately from the UK then Scotland is actually in SURPLUS.. admittedly only by just under 2 billion per year but surplus nonetheless .

Scotland contributes more than 120 billions per year all told to the so called union and gt barely 30 billions back......

Have a read of the McCrone Report you muppet and you'll see why it's been Scotland and it's natural resources that have kept England out the kak for years... say thank you for the M25 and many other such capital projects. And with the masses more oil and gas reserves now available to Scotland due to new reserves discovered, new techniques to further extract present reserves and the expected continual price hike with minimal fluctuation to lower prices.... Scotland's future looks rosy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCrone_report

so tell me Einstein... how is it England pays??.. let me tell you.. it doesn't..

Point to note, i live in Edinburgh, my daughter and son go to one of the schools in the trial and they have Android devices.

but the desktop machines they have are apple... this is due to the VERY big educational establishment discount that apple gives.

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Re: It doesn't matter about the cost...

@Pax681

I seem to recall that the McCrone Report said that Scotland would be better off if it had all the north Sea oil revenue. Guess what? North Sea oil is a United Kingdom resource.

If I had a million quid I'd be richer than I am now. Guess what?

I suggest you look out for a BBC Scotland programme from a couple of years ago where the sums were recalculated at the current values. Same thing. Scotland would only be better off if it kept the oil revenue from the rest of the UK.

Tell me something: Alex Salmond's Arc of Prosperity consisting of Iceland, Ireland and Scotland...how's that going?

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Re: It doesn't matter about the cost...

i suggest that when Scotland becomes independent you check up a tad on what will happen to that so called "UK resource".

even now the claim is made "on behalf of Scotland" by Westminster.. remember under the articles of the union Scotland retained it's territorial waters, it's own legal system and all that hence the claim baing made on "behalf of Scotland"

As for the arc of prosperity.... Iceland you say.. well i notice you missed out Norway all together.. funny that.. however here is a pierce written by an Icelander about it

"ICELAND. No news from Iceland?… why? How come we hear everything that happens in Egypt but no news about what’s happening in Iceland:

In Iceland, the people has made the government resign, the primary banks have been nationalized, it was decided to not pay the debt that these created with Great Britain and Holland due to their bad financial politics and a public assembly has been created to rewrite the constitution.

And all of this in a peaceful way. A whole revolution against the powers that have created the current global crisis. This is why there hasn’t been any publicity during the last two years: What would happen if the rest of the EU citizens took this as an example? What would happen if the US citizens took this as an example.

This is a summary of the facts:

2008. The main bank of the country is nationalized.

The Krona, the currency of Iceland devaluates and the stock market stops. The country is in bankruptcy

2008. The citizens protest in front of parliament and manage to get new elections that make the resignation of the prime minister and his whole government.

The country is in bad economic situation.

A law proposes paying back the debt to Great Britain and Holland through the payment of 3,500 million euros, which will be paid by the people of Iceland monthly during the next 15 years, with a 5.5% interest.

2010. The people go out in the streets and demand a referendum. In January 2010 the president denies the approval and announces a popular meeting.

In March the referendum and the denial of payment is voted in by 93%. Meanwhile the government has initiated an investigation to bring to justice those responsible for the crisis, and many high level executives and bankers are arrested. The Interpol dictates an order that make all the implicated parties leave the country.

In this crisis an assembly is elected to rewrite a new Constitution which can include the lessons learned from this, and which will substitute the current one (a copy of the Danish Constitution).

25 citizens are chosen, with no political affiliation, out of the 522 candidates. For candidacy all that was needed was to be an adult and have the support of 30 people. The constitutional assembly starts in February of 2011 to present the ‘carta magna’ from the recommendations given by the different assemblies happening throughout the country. It must be approved by the current Parliament and by the one constituted through the next legislative elections.

So in summary of the Icelandic revolution:

-resignation of the whole government

-nationalization of the bank.

-referendum so that the people can decide over the economic decisions.

-incarcerating the responsible parties

-rewriting of the constitution by its people

Have we been informed of this through the media?

Has any political program in radio or TV commented on this?

No! The Icelandic people have been able to show that there is a way to beat the system and has given a democracy lesson to the world "

Iceland have not only been the only place to ACTUALLY PUNISH the bankers but also replaced their givt, as you can see above.....

As i said.... Scotland is IN SURPLUS... this is FACT.. as part of the uk we are 16th in the rich nations league.. .. Independent we would be 6th....

so yeah that arc of prosperity looks great.

Ireland... well they are waiting things out to see what happens.. it's not long i reckon before the euro crumples as Greece and france have just elected govts who are anti austerity and Portugal is pretty much heading the same was , as is Spain....

So tell me.. how does it feel to try and bring up subject matter to use as ammunition whilst knowing now so much about it? feel good?.. i rather think not

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Re: It doesn't matter about the cost...

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Anonymous Coward

i suggest that when Scotland becomes independent

<yawn> I'm longing for the day the Scots stop bellyaching, get off their arses and put their money where their very loud mouths are.

My god, England might then get itself a parliament... hopefully devoid of the MacMafia,

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Re: It doesn't matter about the cost...

aye typical matatma coat.. when shown that you have no clue what you are talking about .. you come out with a non reply....

bawbag

Alba gu Brath!

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