back to article CISPA passes House of Representatives vote

The Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act (CISPA) has been passed by the US House of Representatives, despite the threat of a possible veto by the president. The bill would allow the government to pass on information about hacking threats to commercial companies, and allow them to share their user's information with the …

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Mushroom

A bad bill

This is not the first bad bill to pass in the House. The US has two legislative, one executive and one Justice bodies for just this reason. Americans must advise their Senators that this must not pass the Senate, and we will. Even if this bill that violates the 4th Amendment of the Constitution passes the Senate, the President - a professor of constitutional law - is likely to veto it. And if all of these fail in their sworn duty to uphold the Constitution and give up their political careers to pass this bad law, the Supreme court is unlikely to uphold it.

If even that fails, only then is it time to talk about more serious action.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: A bad bill

"the President - a professor of constitutional law - is likely to veto it. "

Obama studied the Constitution, yes - but he did not study the Constitution like an art lover studies the Mona Lisa, but rather as an exterminator studies a cockroach - to better find ways to defeat it.

Moreover, considering the other acts, Executive orders, and laws that Obama has supported that increase the power of the federal government over the states and over the people, I doubt very much he will hesitate to sign this bill into law given the chance. The ONLY factor that might slow his hand would be the concern that this is too close to November, and that it might cost him votes. Then he will think about the sort of people that would hold his passage of this bill against him, and he will consider what "alternative" they have to him, and he will realize that they have no meaningful alternative (thanks to the idiocy that is the Republican Party leadership) and will sign the bill with a glad hand and heart.

Moreover, given that the main owners of the timeshare that is Obama are the *AA, and that this will be abused to enable them to continue to persecute anybody who is not being a good little consumerprole, the odds of him actually vetoing this are such that unless you happen to have a sub-meson brain, an atomic vector plotter, and a cup of really hot tea, you aren't going to see it happen.

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WTF?

Re: A bad bill

Excuse me but Obama is the one wanting to kill this thing the Republicans seem to love this sort of thing though they always shout about freedom. It also seems to me that the last president was the one that was shredding the Constitution every time you turned around.

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Big Brother

No, I won't excuse you.

> It also seems to me that the last president was the one that was shredding the Constitution every time you turned around.

It may "seem" so. But that was then

Now, when even the hard left puts out articles that the President is channeling third reich mentality from another dimension, it's time to rethink:

http://www.alternet.org/story/155045/how_obama_became_a_civil_libertarian%27s_nightmare?page=entire

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FAIL

Re: A bad bill

Go away, troll.

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Holmes

Re: A bad bill

http://original.antiwar.com/pilger/2012/04/29/you-are-all-suspects-now-what-are-you-going-to-do-about-it/

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Anonymous Coward

This is enough to piss-off-a-Pirate

How dare they limit a pirate's right to steal? What are they thinking. Pirates are entitled.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: This is enough to piss-off-a-Pirate

Don't worry, it won't make any difference to any pirate worth their salt (aargh matey) . Just everyone else. LOL. You little tit. Let me guess, you're an ideas man, more than an actual `doer`...

CISPA, SOPA, ACTA, PIPA.... all a complete waste of time and money, and won't stop anything, it'll just CHANGE the way people go about obtaining information. It also will not raise the revenue of any record label or MPAA/MAFFIA related cartel member, the reasons for which have been explained ad-nauseaum. But hey, if it makes you douches feel better, than you go for it.

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Anonymous Coward

One Anon said to another

So tell me, what do pirates "steal" again?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: This is enough to piss-off-a-Pirate

Pirates will just go to dark nets and tunnels. No problem there. It is everyone else who will suffer. If you like fishing expeditions, you will love this bill.

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Re: This is enough to piss-off-a-Pirate

29 people took the time and trouble to downvote an AC?

What lasting harm will that do?

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Childcatcher

Why?

What is this fuckery? Next they'll try to say that it defends against cyber-terrorism. That'll do the trick.

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FAIL

sigh

Just another step in the march towards fascism in the United States... good thing they'll soon go the way of the former soviet union, unable to pay the maintenance on all their expensive "toys", and be marginalised by their own economic stupidity and become irrelevant.

Don't worry boys and girls, give it a few years and these laws will be worthless.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: sigh

"another step in the march towards fascism?" No it's there already, and has been for a long time.

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Meh

Fascism?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fascism?s=t

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Fascism?

Okay, let's see what Wikipedia has to say on Fascism:

"Fascism (play /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology." Check.

"Fascism promotes political violence and war..." Check.

"...the fascist state purges forces, ideas, people, and systems..." Check.

I think I'll tick the AC box on this one.

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Big Brother

Re: Fascism?

The more far right or far left any group becomes, the more their increasing tyranny become indistinguishable from each other. Its why worrying about the definition of Fascism is such a complete distraction from why all extreme groups, left or right are a very serious danger to society.

To make sense of it, you simply have to look at it from the perspective of the psychology of what is happening. The increasing tyranny is caused by ever more narcissists dominating the group, resulting in an ever more arrogant group. So the group as a whole becomes ever more narcissistic. So whatever they claim their intentions to be, they are simply lies to gain power. Their pursuit of power over others is what really drives them and that is what their real intention is regardless of what they say, left or right, it means nothing really to them, because they want power. So don't judge them by their words, because they are liars, instead judge them by their actions, which shows up their narcissistic pursuit of power over others.

Even worse unfortunately psychology shows narcissism isn't the worst any person or group can attain. Unfortunately there are far worse people than narcissists in this world. Its how such groups can end up even killing with such callous disregard for their opponents; many of whom simply speak out against them. At which point the groups are becoming increasingly dominated by the worse of society, some of whom have truly psychopathic contempt for others.

Make no mistake, some politicians are truly psychopathic, its just they know they won't get power if they show their true intentions, so they learn to hide their truly arrogant self-interested intentions. They are masters of deceit, perfected over a lifetime of deceit, to get what they really want. Its why psychopaths can appear so charismatic and they tell you everything you want to hear so all to often we end up letting them have power over us. Its an extremely well practiced act.

That is why an ever increasing tyranny such as this law change is part of, takes us all ever closer to an ever more dangerously controlled society. The bastards in power care little or nothing for us really, they want power and some of them don't care what they have to do to get power. If you want to know what it really is to suffer hardship, then stand back and let them gain ever more power over us all. Unfortunately the alternative is very hard because it literal means we end up in a revolution against them, but it has to be done to stand against them to reset their ever accumulated self-interested power over society. They have no interest in fairness, that is just more lies, so they have to be stopped.

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Boffin

Re: Fascism?

"Fascism (play /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology." Check.

I can see where you might consider this bill authoritarian. But there are lost of authoritarian ideologies apart from fascism, so we need more.

"Fascism promotes political violence and war..." Check.

Where in the text of CISPA does it promote political violence and/or war?

"...the fascist state purges forces, ideas, people, and systems..." Check.

I like you cut just before the relevant "deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration." Since CISPA isn't about decadence or degeneration, this isn't really relevant either.

I think I'll tick the AC box on this one.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to be associated with such shoddy analysis either.

Let's look at what Wikipedia actually says about fascism. Here's para. 1 uncut:

Fascism ( /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2] Fascists seek rejuvenation of their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood through a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through discipline, indoctrination, physical education, and eugenics.[3][4] Fascism seeks to purify the nation of foreign influences that are deemed to be causing degeneration of the nation or of not fitting into the national culture.[5]

Here's how I see it applying to CISPA:

radical authoritarian nationalist -- well, as said above, we have authoriarianism, so that could certainly be a component....

one people in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood -- CISPA is not relevant to this, but let's look at the environment. Do you think the US culture is one of national identity through connections of ancestry, culture, and blood? If so, you've never been here. The US culture is almost entirely about highlighting differences of ancestry and culture, although there is quite a bit of blood when those differences are highlighted a little too sharply.

through a totalitarian single-party state -- Again some may see CISPA as a move to totalitarianism, and some may argue that the US GOP is tending towards self-destruction, but we're not s single-party state just yet. I'll put this in the "maybe" column.

that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through discipline, indoctrination, physical education, and eugenics. HA HA HAAAAAAA. No. This definitely does NOT apply to either CISPA or the US government.

Fascism seeks to purify the nation of foreign influences that are deemed to be causing degeneration of the nation or of not fitting into the national culture. -- again, this is not even in the same category as CISPA. The US government certainly has some elements that fit this description, but, as I said, the GOP is currently working very hard to destroy itself.

CISPA may be a step towards an authoritarian, totalitarian US government, and the US is certainly no paragon of honor, but fascist? Only for the most broad, inconsistent definition of the term. We have more precise terms to use (even the emotionally loaded "police state" is a closer fit than fascism) and it doesn't pay to dilute important terms by misusing them just to generate an emotional reaction.

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Silver badge

Re: Fascism?

The more far right or far left any group becomes, the more their increasing tyranny become indistinguishable from each other. Its why worrying about the definition of Fascism is such a complete distraction from why all extreme groups, left or right are a very serious danger to society.

There is no disagreement that tyranny from any source is unacceptable, and history shows that the end results of tyranny looks very much the same regardless of source. That is why getting the definitions right is so critically important, and simply complaining about the tyranny or trying to fight it without understanding it is the real distraction.

While the net result of tyranny is the same regardless of source, the methods and culture which lead to the tyranny are very different, and so are the methods necessary to fight it. Properly identifying the cause of a disease can mean the difference between a relatively inexpensive and painless regimen of therapy and pharmaceuticals, and a dangerous and expensive surgery.

Though it is important for US citizens to make their displeasure about this bill known and do everything they can to convince their elected officials to fix and/or prevent it's ultimate passage, it's equally important for us to identify the conditions causing this type of bill to be put forth with increasing frequency and to formulate a plan to resolve those issues.

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Headmaster

You want an exact definition, then use psychological profiling.

@Steve Knox: "That is why getting the definitions right is so critically important, and simply complaining about the tyranny or trying to fight it without understanding it is the real distraction."

I was defining it, specifically as a cluster B disorder known as a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. A psychological profile is far more powerful and far more precise than any political description of their ideology, ultimately because their ideology is a lie to them. They don't believe their ideology, only their deceived followers believe their ideology, because that is what the Narcissists want people to believe. Its a game to lure you in and deceive you into allowing them into power. Power is what they really want. Narcissists care little for us in any way. When they show compassion for our lives, its an act.

Some people cannot seem to grasp the idea that there are people in this world who lie relentlessly to get what they want. Therefore you cannot believe what they say, because they don't believe what they say. Only their fooled followers believe it. The Narcissists and Psychopaths (known specifically as an ASPD (i.e. Antisocial Personality Disorder)) are relentless liars. Therefore their political ideologies they wish us to believe they are following is also a lie. They are not following that ideology, they just want you to believe they have these intentions and beliefs. Its all a manipulative game to them.

Therefore you cannot judge them on their words, so you have to judge them on their actions. Frankly I think animals are often a better judge of humans than many humans because animals can only judge on how they are treated, whereas humans foolishly listen to endless lies and believe them all too often as the truth. Judge the control freaks on their actions, then you will see we are fighting to stop extreme cluster B Personality Disorders gaining positions of power over society and that has always been the problem throughout history, regardless of what they call their political parties and claim to be their intentions.

Cluster B Personality Disorders also explains why they are capable of extreme acts of contempt towards other humans, all so they can gain and hold onto power. It also shows why they are a danger to society. It also allows their actions to be predicted, because their Narcissistic power hungry self-interest dominates their thinking.

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Re: sigh

cyber-fascism, surely?

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Anonymous Coward

Argh!

The more I read about this the less I think its about Piracy and the more its about control. Luckily I know my ISP (a major US one) is relying on the "... but you dont have to..." clauses but I wonder how long it will be before they become compulsory - a small amendment down the line slipped in as a one line rider to a budget bill will unfortunately be all that is needed to do that.

Also of note that it allows information sharing between companies not just company and government - which means all those EULA/Privacy agreements you just clicked through without reading would go out the window.

@AC 03:33am GMT - this bill is nothing to do with piracy - its all to do with the umbrella of "National Security" - nothing more apparently - which is the be all and end all to doing whatever they want with the data.

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Re: Argh!

I agree - it is more about control (or at least the monitoring that is needed to enable control) than it is about piracy. Unless the bill has changed substantially from the original draft (anyone have a link to it?), it would require significant tweaking to make it support anti-piracy measures or allow information sharing between non-security companies.

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Big Brother

Re: Argh!

It is all about control. For example: "users can now only be shared with the government for investigations into ... protecting people from 'harm'"

Talk about open ended, so perfect for adding control whenever they want. For example, how long before harm is seen and defined by politicians as harm to their careers, which they seek to define as stopping public unrest and protests at their party. Against protesters this law allows the politicians far more power to control than even the Watergate era to spy on, hunt down, undermine, setup, disrupt and even destroy the lives of their political opponents.

At which point, ironically their society is primed and ready for a revolution. The control freak politicians seem hell bent on this course of action, yet ironically they won't stop a revolution by spying on everyone, they will start the revolution against their ever increasingly totalitarian control.

Its all a pursuit of power to control, but then politicians are career power seekers, so its no wonder their need for control is shown in their actions and thinking towards others and history shows some of them will do almost anything to undermine, setup and destroy opponents. The tyrants never seen to learn from history but then they refuse to hear they can be wrong, so its no wonder they never really learn they are wrong. They are always too busy thinking about themselves and not really thinking about others. But then the very act of seeking power over someone else is in itself inherently narcissistic in its unfairness. Unfortunately the vast majority of politicians have a very serious and very recognizable personality disorder and some are very dangerous indeed, but they learn to hide their true intentions over a lifetime of deceit.

Which is why societies throughout history have fought to prevent their ever increasing spying and control because they cannot be trusted. They are not interested in fairness and representing us, they are interested in control as are many climbing the hierarchies of power, who do the leaders bidding. Its why the whole lot of them cannot be trusted with such power, not just the ones at the very top. The whole power hierarchy becomes rotten to the core, filled with power seeking arrogant bastards who have an advantage over others because they are so ruthless to others. Its why they cannot be trusted and its why they have to be stopped.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Argh!

Ok, so your ISP can "choose" not to hand over your information. In doing so they also retain any legal liability they might incur as a joint party. (See whole AFACT Vs iiNet case in Australia.)

Or they can happily pipe anything and everything across to Big Brother and wipe their hands of any legal liability. Remember that lawyers and accounts run the world.

The law says to the ISPs "Here's a get out of jail free card. You don't have to take it."

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Silver badge

It actually does make sense...

It really does make sense if you think about it: content creators and IP owners have no rights on-line; why should anyone else? And now, so that no one is unfairly advantaged, or disadvantaged, or privileged, everyone will now have no on-line rights.

One can hardly call this situation unjust. Or unexpected. Or surprising.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: It actually does make sense...

I think those 10 downvotes missed the sarcasm. It was sarcasm I tasted and not resent, right?

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Coffee/keyboard

Lame excuse

'“We can’t stand by and do nothing as US companies are hemorrhaging from the cyber looting coming from nation states like China and Russia,” said the bill's sponsor Congressman Mike Rogers,...'

Fine, so remove privacy protection because systems vendors and operators are so sloppy about basic security that they leave their systems wide open to attack. How about:

"We can’t stand by and do nothing as US companies are hemorrhaging from their self-imposed exposure to SQL injection attacks and other elementary security blunders."

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Re: Lame excuse

Of course the bill does nothing to actually address the issues they claim it will address.

A thing to bear in mind for each side of this:

1) A victim of a crime is not suddenly at fault because they left their door unlocked. It was the criminal that chose to enter.

2) As with just about everything, laws exist to cover the claimed issue already. This new bill is using "cyberterrorism" as an excuse to grant the state sweeping new powers that benefit nobody but the state itself and stretch far beyond the borders of the US.

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Re: Lame excuse

In Canada, they plan on protecting us from child pornography.

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Unhappy

... received over $100,000 from companies supporting the legislation

It's a little depressing that we no longer get outraged by politicians offering themselves for sale like high priced hookers.

At least the pols back in Blighty have the grace to pretend to be ashamed of doing that - the ones here don't even pretend any more.

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Silver badge

Re: ... received over $100,000 from companies supporting the legislation

You clearly don't know Mike Rogers. He's quite happy to introduce and support legislation like this - he doesn't have to be bought to do it. Donations for the campaign fund are just icing on the cake.

Don't confuse venality with a genuine affection for increasing the power of the police state.

Donors, in turn, give money to politicians who support positions they favor.

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Anonymous Coward

Nothing to see here, or in Utah.. Move along!

No Such Agency building No Such Datacenter in Utah certainly would have nothing to do with this...

Anon for the illusion of such... No ssl for comment posting makes this irrelevant. El Reg? Please?!

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FAIL

Unconstitutional

The bill allows the government to search without a warrant, violating the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution. The US Supreme Court has already that a warrant is required for electronic eavesdropping, pretty much what this is.

Security in the form of password hacks discovered by corporations and disclosed to the government is fine, but the broad searches without warrants allowed by this bill are clearly against already decided law in the US and the congress members who voted for it should be smacked with a wet mackerel for violating their oath to support the Constitution.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Unconstitutional

So was the Patriot act. What's your point.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Unconstitutional

I am very much against this bill but I'm not sure it violates the 4th amendment. I think the constitutionality comes down to the definition of a public space and individual privacy policies. If I were to murder someone and the police suspected me but the only evidence was a gun I left in a state park I would have trouble claiming the finding of the gun was an "unreasonable search or seizure." Warranted or not, the general public has come to expect some form of anonymity on the internet (note ac). If an agreed to privacy policy states something like "we will not share your information with third parties" then yes this would violate the 4th amendment, but most of the large .web businesses avoid such definitive language

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Happy

Looking at the bigger picture

At least we have moved from the old world of "Comunists" vs "the West" and visa versa. The day we see the West doing something to try and protect its trade interests, as opposed to some "they are the bad guys "Because we said so"... is a good day in my book.

It means we are all seeing ourselves on a more level playing field.

+1 for the internet - it has opened the eyes of the world (including the West) to the fact that the people on the other side of the fence are just people, and not enemies. the people know this, even if the politicians have their heads up their buts

+1 for the ordinary people / ordinary business - we all know where we are, and we are all doing what we can to get on, regardless of what part of the planet we are on

I'm optimistic. Borders will fall to bits over the next 50 - 100 years, and people can be people rather than victims (or successes) of their geography

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Anonymous Coward

Time to get a grip

Society is not going to stand by and allow piracy to go unpunished. Get use to it. It's only going to get worse for those who chose to pirate.

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Thumb Down

Re: Time to get a grip

My guess is that even before its probably overturn as constitutionally vague and in violation of one or more of the first ten Constitutional amendments, CISPA (if indeed passed and signed into law), will have little effect on copyright infringement (the correct term for "piracy"). The major infringers will work around it successfully and a few unfortunates, perhaps, be caught and subjected to absurd punishment.

According to my recollection, one recent study had it that 60 - 80 per cent. of the unlawful downloads would go away if the owners released material for download quickly and at a reasonable price. (Sorry, cannot recall the citation.) If true, the real answer lies with the **AA and the like to rethink their business model, as the makers of buggy whips and harnesses did a centruy or so ago (those that survived).

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Coat

Re: Time to get a grip

What other use may anyone have for whips and harnesses and... Oh, wait!...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Time to get a grip

94.7% of statistics cited are made up on the spot.

If music is worth stealing then obviously it's worth paying for. Considering current prices it's a real stretch to suggest that the cost of music or movies is excessive. That's pretty absurd reasoning for theft but if you think it will work in court, give it a try.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "Stealing".

Please tell. How is it stealing?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Time to get a grip

Considering current prices of music and movies, I do consider them excessive and hence do without. I listen to music on the radio and watch movies on TV or rental from the local shop. You want to see my music collection? It consists of 17 CDs (and about another 30 with kids/baby music). But that's ok. People are allowed to have different ideas about how much something is really worth.

So from a purely personal survey of one person your argument doesn't hold up.

Please explain to me again why this means I should have my privacy violated. Yes there exist persons who engage in copyright violations, however I was under the (mistaken?) impression that I had a presumption of innocence and a right to privacy. Violating the rights of even one innocent person in the pursuit of corporate profits is athema to what we as a society are supposed to be about.

Corporate profits do not outweigh personal rights. Not ever.

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Silver badge

Re: Time to get a grip

Folks, the "piracy" AC who keeps posting in response to the CISPA articles is either a troll or a sock puppet (or just possibly a grade-A idiot who refuses to read any of the informed discussion). There's really no point in arguing with it.

CISPA isn't about "piracy". The entertainment industry is hoping to get some use out of it, but it's a surveillance bill, pure and simple.

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Flame

So to pass a bill in America all you have to do is...

So to pass a bill in America all you have to do is have a movie or music angle and it will just sail right on though.

New health bill, becomes the new health TV series protection bill.

Changes to finance, just have movie rights attached to it somewere and passed.

Need extra money for internal motorway development, just call it the Mad Max road series challange bill with traffic camera's linked to holleywoods cutter rooms -- again passed.

As long as it's in the interests of the people^H^H^H^H^H^HHollywood then it will pass.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: So to pass a bill in America all you have to do is...

If enough paid liars can profit from the legislation it will pass.

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Copyright laws are enforced in all civilized countries

These new laws are designed to make it perfectly clear what is unacceptable so that pirates have no excuses for their crimes.

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Does anyone else think people like Boris S and the Anon posters that poison every thread about "COPYRIGHT VIOLATIONS" are just paid trolls who spend time 24/7 indexing these types of posts on dozens of sites and blogs.

Actual people don't actually hold those kinds of opinions, they're paid PR slutpuppies, and nothing of value.

?

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Or just trolls

Having a LOL while they wait for their torrents to finish.

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Headmaster

Re: Or just trolls

I any case, hanging is too good for them.

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