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back to article iPlayer repeat fees threaten BBC earthquake

Is it fair to ask people to pay a second time for media they've already paid for? Or is it fair to charge people for media they never use - and send them to prison if they decline to pay? Of these two injustices, which is the greater? Last week, PaidContent UK revealed a few details on plans by the BBC to charge for repeats …

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Anonymous Coward

One flaw

The BBC broadcasts so many repeats and has such few decent series, it just leaves the wildlife documentaries that are of any interest. Eight whole new episodes of Top gear a year, before being repeated endlessly. Have I got old news for you and mock the week again do not even make sense repeating them 6 months later due to the topic being recent news.

The odd missed episode may be useful for some. Makes me wonder if cable customers that have the iPlayer will be expected to pay too.

I refuse to pay the licence for many reasons and am able to watch the catchup tv without needing one as it is not a live broadcast. Guess it makes me a freetard!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: One flaw

Well, that's one way the BBC can generate some revenue - require a TV licence to watch iPlayer.

The AC's other point is valid though. There are free repeats on TV, DVD sets to buy, and now paid-for repeats online. A confusing proposition. And if I'm paying for repeats, do I need a licence?

Once the BBC starts charging pay-per-view for repeats, it seriously undermines the case for the TV licence. I pay my licence but only watch a couple of programs a week. Maybe I'd be better off on a pay-per-view model - but then the BBC loses my licence income. So, the BBC might be better off to consider the licence a subscription. It doesn't have to be all-you-can-eat. It might be that you get x hours per week of downloads.

Oh, I dunno. My head hurts. The tyranny of choice again.

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Re: One flaw

The documentaries will be made by someone else anyway. These being the ONLY good thing BBC have produced in decades [literally, not a hyperbolic flippancy but quite legitimate] and there are some of equal quality in production by others now.

Same for the licence, I resent paying for it, and don't, not that I ever watch anything the BBC produces outside of some Blu-Rays anyway.

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Bronze badge

Re: One flaw

I watch BBC for precisely five programmes. Not Going Out. Anything by David Attenborough (3D-junk aside). Russel Howard's Good News. Mock The Week. QI. My girlfriend watches those and Inspector Montalbano (but she's Italian, so that's understandable purely because it's the only Italian programme on British TV).

And, you know what? Waiting for new content on those outweighs actually being able to watch ANY of them. Averaged over the year, none of those programmes show a new edition more than once every six months. I don't watch the repeats of those programmes at all. So turning on the TV in the hope of catching something new from those programmes means that I'll almost certainly be disappointed.

I do what I think everyone else does now - I bought the boxset on DVD and watch them at my own convenience if I want to watch repeats and use the TV only for "new-new" stuff. Why would I wait for them to appear, come up on iPlayer or anything else? I had two years without a TV. Can't say I missed it at all. We bought a license for an old-fashioned CRT TV we rescued from the scrapheap. It gets watched a couple of hours in the evening if it's lucky and usually for junk. I'm not entirely sure it's worth it at all.

The BBC used to be great. iPlayer was a world-leader. But if they have nothing to show, there's nothing worth watching. Repeats are there to fill time on 24-7 channels that have nothing else to show. They should *NOT* make up the majority of live or online content. There's something to be said for "catch-up TV" and historical archives of shows, sure, but if it's historical content I'm after, I'll pop over to 4oD for some Whose Line Is It Anyway (though I see the BBC have poached Dan Patterson and almost the exact format of that show now, 20 years later) or stick a DVD of something good in.

The BBC's greatest strength was it's ability to broadcast well. But the content is now sadly lacking and the best shows are "vintage". It's not the only provider to fall into the trap of accessibility taking place over actual new content. Hell, I just bought The Two Of Us on DVD because I wanted to watch something actually FUNNY and ITV don't show that any more, and Rough Science, because I remember it being quite interesting when I watched it first time around (and it features Italy in the first series), and there's nothing "new" to watch. There are a few gems on TV now, but an enormous amount of dross (anything that involves a phone-in or viewer-voting) and repeat. Dross I avoid. Repeats I have sitting on DVD if they are any good. In the absence of new programmes, I'd rather find something on DVD that I haven't seen and nobody currently broadcasts.

The point of Have I Got News For You, Mock The Week, Russell Howard's Good News, etc. was that they were funny, current, and different. Hell, even Drop The Dead Donkey was tied into current affairs. If you want people to watch it, either admit it's archive and charge accordingly (i.e. no more than it would take to buy a DVD with that episode on it divided by the number of episodes on that DVD) for permanent access, or make it new and current and have enough of it to keep me wanting to watch.

I was invited to a filming of The King Is Dead a year or so ago. New BBC "comedy" show that was offered to me because I missed a place in the QI audience. I can safely say that I was embarrassed to sit through it. The funniest bit was the comments in between filming (which never made it into the episode) and the unheard-of warm-up comedian. The BBC aren't content producers any more, they're archive managers. And they do that badly. I'll just stick to my DVD's of stuff they could be bothered to license out.

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Re: One flaw

Is 'being stingy scrounging bastard' one of the reasons on your list?

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HMB

Re: One flaw

I think it's fair comment that there have been a shocking number of repeats recently, but I still love new Horizon episodes I watch a bit of Top Gear too, but other than that there's not really that much I want to watch. The license fee is kind of steep for just two shows I want to watch.

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Stop

Re: One flaw

Er, you do have to have a TV license to watch iPlayer, or rather, you are supposed to have one.

(Personally I'm happy to pay my quarter share of our house's telly license. 6Music is worth it all on it's own to me.)

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FAIL

Re: One flaw

This article is BS. Sure, the BBC wants to launch an iTunes like store for paid downloads - so what?

You already have to pay for BBC shows from iTunes et al, or if you want a DVD copy. One thing you won't pay for is repeats of BBC shows on the iPlayer for a week or so after broadcast, so, no change there then. I wonder if Andrew O. will allow comments again - he doesn't usually.

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Terminator

Re: One flaw

Look at the source article - the proposal isn't a subscription model, or pay-per-view. It is "download to own".

Just like buying a DVD without the physical disk.

Nothing wrong with that, but I'd probably expect a "long-tail" mechanism, where older and less popular content starts to drop in price.

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Silver badge

Re: One flaw

@ phuzz the BBC say its only needed for program's as broadcast. BBC news stream does, I player catchup doesn't.

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Thumb Down

Wrong.

"Er, you do have to have a TV license to watch iPlayer, or rather, you are supposed to have one."

No you don't. You only need a licence if what you watch is a live stream.

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Silver badge

Re: One flaw

BBC wildlife documentaries are NOT made by someone else, they are made by BBC Bristol. As far as I know, the filming and post-production work is all done by BBC employees (one of whom is a drinking buddy, so I do have a vague idea what I am talking about). This is one of the few worthwhile things that the licence fee is spent on.

Also, I heard that programmes like Top Gear actually bring in more money than they cost to make, because they are sold on to broadcasters in other countries. If this is the case (and it IS hearsay), then surely this undermines the case for the licence fee, as there is no reason the BBC cannot be a self-sustaining entity that makes its money selling profitable programmes overseas, to repeats channels like Dave, and on DVDs. Charging for stuff on iPlayer would further undermine the case for having the licence fee at all. Quite frankly, my opinion is that it is long past the time it went.

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FAIL

Re: One flaw

Fail doubleplus

http://iplayerhelp.external.bbc.co.uk/help/playing_tv_progs/tvlicence

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Re: Very Wrong.

Good luck arguing THAT point to the inspectors if they come knocking. It doesn't have to be a live stream, it just needs to have the capability to watch BBC channels, which the BBC website provides this too (News24) so owning a computer with an internet connection now requires you to have a TV licence.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: One flaw

Top Gear doesn't bring money in to the BBC, because the rights to the show's 'concept/format' are owned by Clarkson, so the money goes to him for selling overseas.

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Re: One flaw

If the BBC was funded on sales outwith the UK, then it wouldn't be the British Broadcasting Corporation anymore, would it?

In fact, the BBC makes a tiny sum from overseas sales. It probably should do more, but that's never going to fund the whole shebang.

It makes sense for the Beeb to dip into as many different funding methods as possible, rather than rely on just one (which could disappear, overnight).

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Re: Just like buying a DVD without the physical disk.

The trouble is, buying a DVD without the physical disk is nothing like buying a DVD.

You can't give it as a gift, lend it to a friend, sell it or give it to Oxfam when you are fed up with it. And if you happen across it in X years time and decide you would like to watch it again, you will probably find the latest hardware/software won't play it.

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Re: Very Wrong.

"owning a computer with an internet connection now requires you to have a TV licence"

Utterly false. Stop spreading stupid ill-informed urban myths and actually try doing some research to learn the truth.

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FAIL

Re: Very Wrong.

http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/technology--devices-and-online-top8/

You muppet. Don't fall for the BS that Crapita feed you. You do not need a license to use a computer. You don't need a license to watch catch-up tv. If they can scare you into paying they will.

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Anonymous Coward

Anyone for the facts?

As others have said - you only need a TV licence in the UK for viewing/recording live to near live TV programmes whatever method or device is used. You do not need a TV licence just because you own a TV or a PC or a VCR/DVD-R if you do not view or record live or nearly live TV programmes. Nor do you need one for Radio even if listened to via a TV.

Secondly Clarkson does not own all rights to Top Gear - He owns 30% of the company that has the rights to the Top Gear Brand and distribution rights (Andy Wilman the producer has 20%) and BBC Worldwide have 50%.

BBC Worldwide's biggest earners are Top Gear and Doctor Who.

The Licence fee generates about £3.6 Billion and BBC Worldwide contributes £160Million on Sales of £1.1 Billion. The profit from BBC Worldwide returning to the BBC - offsetting some costs to the licence payer.

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Re: Very Wrong.

Thumbs down all you like, but you could still get molested by 'the man'. In fact, as is pointed out in that link above:

"Anyone in the UK watching or recording television as it's being broadcast or simulcast on any device - including mobiles, laptops and PCs - must, by law, be covered by a valid TV licence.

A 'live' TV programme is a programme, which is watched or recorded at the same time (or virtually the same time) as it is being broadcast or otherwise distributed to members of the public. As a general rule, if a person is watching a programme on a computer or other device at the same time as it is being shown on TV then the programme is 'live'. This is sometimes known as simulcasting.

It is a criminal offence to watch 'live' television without a TV licence or to possess or control a device which you know or reasonably believe will be used to watch 'live' TV without a TV licence. You could be prosecuted and fined up to £1000 (plus be ordered to pay legal costs) for these offences."

Which means that by owning a computer with access to the internet it's 'reasonable' for the licensing officers to assume that it will be used to watch a simulcast such as BBCNews24 or individual programmes like Question Time. It may not seem fair, but I know a few people who have absolutely no TV equipment (or computer equipment... yes, they do exist!) and never have who find themselves constantly harassed by TV licensing because there is no record of a license for their address. It's generally assumed that you WILL watch some live TV in one form or another.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Very Wrong.

Harassed is one thing - you stated that

1) " it just needs to have the capability to watch BBC channels"

2) "owning a computer with an internet connection now REQUIRES you to have a TV licence"

Neither of which are true.

If an inspector comes knocking, tell him to sod off and that you are withdrawing any implicit rights for him to come on to your property and any further breach by them or their company will be trespass.

Any letters you receive just ignore and throw away.

Unless you do watch or record live/nearly live TV on any device, in which case pay up and buy a licence.

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FAIL

Re: Very Wrong.

Very, very wrong. You don't need a license to own a computer, or a TV for that matter. You need a licence to use them in order to watch material as it is broadcast, nothing else.

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FAIL

Re: One flaw

You only need a TV licence if you watch TV content as it's being broadcast. No need at all if you are only watching stuff later on iPlayer - though that is not the impression the TVLA drones will give when they phone you if you don't have a TV licence.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Very Wrong.

Yes you do, if that device is connected in such as way that it CAN receive a broadcast.

You could own a PVR but no TV and you would still need a licence if you had it connected to an aerial and power supply. The only way around this is to not have your devices connected if inspectors knocked on your door.

The BBC simulcast through their website (which is where the iPlayer is also hosted) a number of their channels - BBC1, BBC2, BBC3, BBC4, BBC News, BBC Parliament, CBBC, CBeebies. These require you to have a TV licence.

http://iplayerhelp.external.bbc.co.uk/help/prog_availability/what_simul

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Anonymous Coward

Re: One flaw

"You only need a TV licence if you watch TV content as it's being broadcast. No need at all if you are only watching stuff later on iPlayer"

But the iPlayer also hosts TV content as it's being broadcast.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Anyone for the facts?

Another nice fact about Top Gear that the licence fee payers should know - Clarkson's salary for making between 6 and 10 programmes in a season? About 2 million quid, plus free holidays to all the places where he decides they should film 'specials'.

He also earns around a third of all the income from selling the programme that we've paid to be made around the world. Oh, and Clarkson lives on the Isle of Man, so he pays no income tax from those earnings into the UK system despite the fact that the UK population supports his license fee-subsidised production.

So if you ever get to meet him, punch him very hard in the testicles while shouting 'POWER!' in a Mexican accent. I'm sure he'll see the funny side of it.

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Bronze badge

@AC 09:18 Re: Very Wrong.

No you do not - have you read the above posts - look at the one entitled "Anyone for the facts?"

The fact is, you do not need a TV licence unless you are watching or recording live or nearly live TV. Doesn't matter what equipment you have or what it is capable of. Doesn't matter what the BBC or TV Licensing try to tell you. End of story.

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Unhappy

Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

That's how the BBC's pro licence ads went, isn't it?

With commercial stations, the model is as follows:- We make programmes, you pay to watch them (or watch ads).

With the BBC the model is as follows:- You give us licence money. We use that money to commission / make programmes. You watch those programmes.

The difference is that unlike programmes made by commercial broadcasters, we, the licence fee payers pay, up front, for the programmes to be made, so for the BBC to attempt to charge us again for those same programmes is unacceptable.

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Re: Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

Spot on,

Its not a business trying to leverage the max profit out of everything.

For the £10-15 we chip in a month they provide us with a huge amount of content. Simple as that.

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Re: Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

Agree entirely. However, I do think that it's quite reasonable for the BBC to charge those in other countries, who haven't paid the licence fee, for iPlayer content.

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Megaphone

Re: Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

"With commercial stations, the model is as follows:- We make programmes, you pay to watch them (or watch ads)."

That's a somewhat over-simplified view. The current model as practiced by the likes of Sky, Virgin, and to a much lesser extent BT seems to be more along the lines of...

"We make a few programs, get exclusive distribution rights for a few more, and buy a lot more off the shelf. You pay a price dictated by a not-particularly transparent charging structure which makes what you pay variable according to whether you're a new or existing customer, what other services you buy from us, and whether you can convince the people on our retention team that you're going to walk unless we give you a better deal and/or throw in a few shiny toys as a sweetener. In exchange we grant you access to a bundle of channels most of which you don't want and will never watch but which make whatever it is we're charging you for the stuff you do want to watch look like better value. We then expect you to watch ads as well.

To be honest it's the bundling (and hence at least the perception of poor value for money for the specific channels I'd want) both of channels level and additional services ('phone, broadband, mobile, VoD etc) and general lack of transparency in the pricing which has put me off signing up for Sky (we're not served by Bransonvision) and leaves me deeply suspicious of the machinations of Big Media in general, and, BT vision subscription aside, keeps me happy in the comforting embrace of Aunty Beeb with a lot of boxed DVD sets, and a few dodgy torrents and of the stuff I can't get any other way...

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Re: Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

One of the few sensible answers here.

For the scrounging, whining, complaining refusnik-bastards who seem to forget that the £10 - £15 per month that the BBC get from us legitimate viewers / listeners also pays for Radio 1, 2, 3, 4, 4 extra, 5, 5 extra, 6, local, regional, national and international news reporting, regional BBC radio stations, regional BBC television stations, BBC World Service, iPlayer and much much more...

And to those idiots who don't realise it - if you watch BBC catchup (i.e. iPlayer) you DO need a TV licence.

Stop complaining about the price of 3 beers a month, pay up and enjoy the ad-free content.

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xyz
Bronze badge

Re: Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

No you DON'T need a licence if you're just watching iPlayer, you only need a licence to view "live" broadcasts, i.e. stuff that is being sent out to the gen pop at the same time as you are viewing it; read your licence before you type.

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FAIL

Re: Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

Perhaps before you go on your rant against 'idiots' who think you dont need a license to watch iPlayer... they are actually correct, and you are wrong.

As has already been mentioned, and can be confirmed with a quick look at the TV licensing site, you only need a license to watch live streams. Catchup TV is exempt.

Better luck next time.

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Thumb Up

Re: Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

Watching TV on the internet You need to be covered by a licence if you watch TV online at the same time as it's being broadcast on conventional TV in the UK or the Channel Islands.

Video recorders and digital recorders like Sky+ You need a licence if you record TV as it's broadcast, whether that's on a conventional video recorder or digital box.

Mobile phones A licence covers you to watch TV as it's broadcast on a mobile phone, whether you're at home or out and about.

P.S. I think this is ANY Television broadcast, not just stuff from the BBC. I think in the olden days that you needed a TV licence if you "had a device capable of recieiving a television signal)

The law states that you need to be covered by a TV Licence if you watch or record television programmes, on any device, as they're being shown on TV. This includes TVs, computers, mobile phones, games consoles, digital boxes and Blu-ray/DVD/VHS recorders.

You don't need a licence if you don't use any of these devices to watch or record television programmes as they're being shown on TV - for example, if you use your TV only to watch DVDs or play video games, or you only watch ‘catch up’ services like BBC iPlayer or 4oD.

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Bronze badge

Re: Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

From the horses mouth: http://iplayerhelp.external.bbc.co.uk/help/playing_tv_progs/tvlicence

Quote: 'Catch-up

You do not need a television licence to catch-up on television programmes in BBC iPlayer, only when you watch or record at the same time (or virtually the same time) as it is being broadcast or otherwise distributed to the public. In BBC iPlayer, this is through the Watch Live simulcast option.'

So, licence NOT NEEDED to watch iPlayer, unless you select the Live option.

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Thumb Down

Re: Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

'And to those idiots who don't realise it - if you watch BBC catchup (i.e. iPlayer) you DO need a TV licence.'

Before accusing others of being idiots it helps to check your facts as you end up coming across as a bit less of a fuckwit.

---

Taken from 'http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/how-to-tell-us-you-dont-watch-tv-top12/'

You don't need a licence if you don't use any of these devices to watch or record television programmes as they're being shown on TV - for example, if you use your TV only to watch DVDs or play video games, or you only watch ‘catch up’ services like BBC iPlayer or 4oD.

---

I cancelled my TV licence after realising there was nothing I had found that I wanted to watch on TV in the last 2 years. I don't even watch catch-up TV. If the BBC produces a world class ducumentary series that I want then I buy the bloody box set on blu-ray.

What some people seem to forget is that the BBC also funds itself with plenty of advertising on it's international channels and it's website when viewed from outside the UK as well as it's many cd, dvd, blu-ray sales via it's online store, amazon, etc. However anyone watching live TV in the UK must pay the licence fee or face court appearances and fines even if they never watch or listen to a single BBC channel. The unique way the BBC is funded is extortion.

The only reason people seem to feel this is OK is because it has been this way since the beginning of TV usage in Britain. Imagine if TV usage in the UK had just started with multiple companies competing for viewing figures. Every company attempts to produce programmes to win viewers and make money via advertising or pay per view services except one. That company istead forces you to pay whether you use it's services or not, it threatens people with fines and has detector vans driving around looking for houses with TV's that have not paid. I don't believe for one moment that such a company would be permitted to operate in that way.

If the BBC want to advertise or offer pay-per-view services for IPlayer that makes perfect sense but the licence fee is an outdated and deeply unfair system.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

"With the BBC the model is as follows:- You give us licence money. We use that money to commission / make programmes. You watch those programmes."

The commissioning part is the source of the problem. The BBC (that's us) pays the full cost of the commissioned production, yet the <b>independent producer keeps the copyright</b>. We're paying for lots of TV and someone else ends up owning it. If the BBC fixes this absurd anomaly they won't have a problem reshowing the TV we paid for on iPlayer.

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Flame

Re: Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

Why do I have to pay when I don't actually watch or listen to the 'huge amount of content' they allegedly provide? (Because it demonises the community I am part of and I am in effect paying to have my self denigrated).

Because if you don't you can end up in jail (if you don't cough up the fine) for watching TV, even if it's not anything the BBC produced.

So yes I hate it, but have to it, unless I opt for a Taliban style visual entrainment black out.

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Pint

Re: Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

Currently iPlayer doesn't work for me because I'm not in the UK.

I'd be happy to pay to watch some programmes.

(An ex-pat living in Canada).

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

You DO need a TV licence to watch some sections of the iPlayer as has also been mentioned. Catchup TV may be exempt, but the iPlayer as a whole is not.

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Re: Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

"If you only watch catch-up services online, then you don’t need a licence. For example, you don’t need one to use BBC iPlayer, or ITV player, to catch up on programmes after they have been shown on TV."

http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/technology--devices-and-online-top8/

"You do not need a television licence to catch-up on television programmes in BBC iPlayer"

http://iplayerhelp.external.bbc.co.uk/help/playing_tv_progs/tvlicence

If the both the BBC and the TV Licensing authority for the UK, say that you don't need a licence to watch catch-up on iPlayer then they could be right. If you want to watch the simulcast option, you do need a licence.

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Happy

Re: Because of the unique way the BBC is funded.....

Now here's a revenue opportunity. Seems to me that when out of the UK, if you want to watch iplayer other than the worldwide stuff, people should be able to pay for the privilege...register up as non UK watcher, pay a licence fee to watch abroad - make sure that the system uses the download app to ensure registration details. What could go wrong?

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Anonymous Coward

Auntie is hardly giving it away

when you factor in the cost of the tv licence. Time to tie in access to iPlayer via the tv licence number, and if you dont hold a licence then you either pay-per-view or pirate it. The only time I might use iPlayer is if somebody at work raves about a program I've missed, then I'll give it a look to see if it appeals to me, but I certainly wouldn't be doing that if I were to be charged twice and I would be hauling ass towards a torrent/nzb solution. I have absolutely no qualms about freeloading a previously aired tv program as there is no loss to the broadcaster in me doing so.

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Re: Auntie is hardly giving it away

" Time to tie in access to iPlayer via the tv licence number"

Completely agree with that.

iPlayer programmes should be free for license fee payers, pay-per-view for everyone else.

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Silver badge

Re: Auntie is hardly giving it away

"I have absolutely no qualms about freeloading a previously aired tv program as there is no loss to the broadcaster in me doing so."

And what about the original content creator?

Rather than commit copyright infringement, why no get behind other models of delivery. Ones that respect you as a consumer and not treat you like a cash cow/criminal. vo.do is one example (they are probably others).

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IT Angle

How soon before TV licences are pirated, then?

I see news of MS Windows volume license (US spelling) product keys pilfered and key-generated and so-on fairly routinely. If the Beeb iPlayer was tied into the UK's TV licence system somehow, it wouldn't be long before these licence numbers got pirated.

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Silver badge

And what about the original content creator?

What about the original content creator? They've most likely been paid a shed load of money already.

If I download an episode of Up Pompeii, how exactly are the people I'm paying money to going to be able to pass the cash along to Frankie Howard?

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Facepalm

Re: How soon before TV licences are pirated, then?

It's also illegal to rob banks and mug people. However I'm still allowed to walk into banks and down the street on the assumption that I'm innocent until proved guilty.

Criminals will find their way around most things. The complying majority will play by the rules

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