back to article Bury council defends iPads for binmen

Bury council has defended its decision to spend £9,000 on iPads for its fleet of refuse trucks, saying the devices will allow it to provide a real time bin collection service. The council has come under severe criticism for purchasing 22 of the touchscreen devices, which retail at around £400 each, just months after unveiling …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cor Blimey Guvnor!

    Ohhhhhh.....

    My old man's a dustman,

    He's got a new iPad,

    He says the Council's barmy,

    And the man who bought it mad.

    He looks a proper nana,

    As he Wi-Fi's on his rounds,

    It's covered in detritus,

    What a waste of Council pounds.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Can we also have some hard facts?

      @Bit Fiddler: "What a waste of Council pounds."

      First up - great verse, made my day. I almost hummed the tune aloud.

      But on a serious note, I can't be so dismissive of equipment purchases. If we always made decisions solely on the basis of the capital cost, we would also send them out to collect waste with wheelbarrows. If this bit of kit saves them a lot of wasted time and miles driving back for missed bins, they might well stand to save money.

      I'd like to see some hard figures - it's to easy to be dismissive of council decisions when you don't have the full picture.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      9K huh?

      Did anyone consider the alternative of telling their staff to do there job propperly or they will lose it.

      If they can do that then they can tell those pesky people who woke up too late to put the bin out on time that its tuff luck, move it yourself or wait for 2 weeks till the next pick up

      Im sorry thats a complete waste of money when there is a much simplier solution, you will also need to factor in the time needed for training, tech support, damaged units and finally WHY did they have to go for the most expensive product on the market when a 2003 model PDA would and does do the same job that they would be using it for!!

      Insanity.

  2. Si 1
    Big Brother

    "We need to urgently improve our recycling rates"

    Is it me, or does recycling have absolutely nothing to do with this? It's supposedly all about making sure the "Waste Management Officers" or binmen as I like to call them, don't miss anyone's bins.

    Suddenly they're talking about landfill costs and recycling. Is the real reason for buying iPads so the little Hitlers in the local council can track who is and isn't doing any recycling?

    1. A J Stiles
      FAIL

      Well .....

      If some lazy, selfish waste of oxygen is putting recyclables in their "residual waste" bin, then the local council not only aren't getting the money that they would have raised by selling them to a recycling merchant, but also they have to pay to bury them in landfill. Meaning, honest people's council tax goes up.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Thumb Down

        pay to bury them in landfill...

        Not quite, pay a 'tax' imposed by central government if buried in landfill.

        To avoid that, they 'recycle': pay for a long obcure paper trail to disguise the fact that it ends up in a landfill on the other side of the world.

        1. Robert E A Harvey

          No

          Yes, there is a landfil tax.

          But the hole in the ground is usually owned by some faceless company who will charge for that too.

          I am afraid councils pay quite a lot for landfill.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    Is this the reason Apple is selling so many iPads?

    I'm sure there were touchscreens before the iPad... How come they were not used before? Too expensive? Too difficult to code for? Or is it simply that people only realized now how useful it was?

    1. Test Man
      Thumb Up

      Yes there was.

      Yep, there was tablets years before the iPad (Windows XP Tablet Edition, one example of the OS on one), however, they were cubmersome and lumbered with XP, which isn't exactly tablet friendly, even the special version made for it.

      1. Danny 14

        waste

        for a generic app any of crap would do. Even a CE powered touchpad

    2. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      This is exactly why Apple sell iPad.

      They were told by Apple that it would revolutionise everything people do, including collecting bins. The world is full of idiots that believe everything Apple/Microsoft tell them...

      1. Yet Another Commentard

        Re: This is exactly why Apple sell iPad.

        Indeed.

        This is true - at work we have been tasked with thinking of things you could use an iPad for that are work related. A client wants to buy some, but does not know why.

        Also - I travel by train a lot. I see a lot of iPads. Typical use is Angry Birds, then read <newspaper> then put away, get out <laptop of whatever flavour including macbooks> to do work.

        On the subject of this, as I recall one of the problems with paper was it got wet. Which is clearly not a problem for delicate electronics, them being well regarded in the waterproof department.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        FAIL

        Re: This is exactly why Apple sell iPad.

        Soon, the binmen will be sitting in the cab doing that stupid swipe gesture at the bins through the window and wondering why they don't go and empty themselves at the back of the vehicle. That's the future, people!

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      iPAQ

      I know other local authority services that needed real time job updates used to use iPAQ handhelds for this.

      An iPad is probably superior in terms of battery life and the larger screen easier to work on and code for - the TCO won't be greatly different, so if it works there's no reason not to buy an Apple just because they are fashionable.

      I might be concerned about the robustness perhaps and how well suited they are to people who wear gloves most of the time.

      1. Yet Another Commentard

        Re: An iPad is probably superior in terms of battery life

        Most vehicles have a big battery continually recharged by the engine, and a cigarette lighter socket you could use to power whatever device you have.

  4. Tom 7

    Brilliant

    Next person who shows me how amazing it is that their IPad can behave exactly like a computer will be referred to as an IBinPerson.

    Shame BuryTC wasted about £7000 on the hardware though.

    1. Giles Jones Gold badge

      Alternatives?

      What should they have bought instead? Cheap Advent devices from PC world?

      That would be good, bin men parked up by the side of the road running "cyanogenmod" and messing about with the tablet to get it to "do what they want".

      1. Chris Miller
        Stop

        messing about with the tablet to get it to "do what they want"

        Err, isn't that the job of the IT (sorry, ITC, we're dealing with local government after all) dept? (Assuming it hasn't been outsourced to Crapita.)

        Every parcels van is now accompanied by a hand-held on which you can sign for delivery. I don't see many of them using iPhones or iPads, instead they prefer something more rugged that will last longer than a week. But then, they have to operate in the commercial world, rather than the rarefied atmosphere of spending other people's money.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @Chris Miller

          What you fail to realise though is that parcel delivery companies revolutionised the hand-held device idea. They were the ones to first buy into the idea that immediate tracking up to the point of delivery (including signature) was a good thing to eliminate as many as possible complaints about missed deliveries, delayed deliveries, deliveries to neighbours etc...

          With the lowest-spec 3G iPad, Bury Council can not only lock down what gets put onto an iPad (app restrictions mean no App Store, no Angry Birds, and only the apps that they've wanted you to have), but with the right software, are able to push down immediate notifications about missed bins on a route instead of having to wait until, as the moany MP put it, the paper clipboards with the maps return to the depot.

          That *does* save money, especially if the 'missed bin' is at the outskirts of the bin depot's region to collect in, and at £1.40/litre *minimum* in diesel cost, it's a good cost saving over a year.

          Provided the iPad is installed in a good cradle that protects the device, there's no reason to believe that this is a waste.

          1. Chris Miller

            @SP

            And all that can only be achieved on a 10" 1024x768 colour screen, right? Even though every logistics operation in the world seems to be of a different opinion.

            Let me guess, you work in the public sector, don't you.

      2. 1Rafayal
        FAIL

        @Giles Jones

        No, the alternative is simply not to waste money on iPads for binmen in the first place...

      3. Neil 23

        Well...

        Why not some decent little netbooks for less than half the cost? Or they have these things now called mobile phones...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Imagine you're a dustman driving a large truck.

          Then answer your own question.

          1. Graham Marsden
            Boffin

            @Imagine you're a dustman driving a large truck

            ... at a speed of about three miles an hour, stopping every fifty feet or so...

      4. Naughtyhorse

        mobile fucking phone maybe??

        thats all

  5. Morteus
    FAIL

    What a coincidence...

    A couple of days ago, a chap from the council turned up at my door to fit a new bath. When I reported the fault they said I'd get a call to let me know when they were coming (which never happened). As I was going out I told him he'd have to arange another time.

    "No problem!" he says, and whips out an HTC. The next 10 minutes where spent on the door step while he continualy apologised and tried to get a connection to the database. In the end he scribbled some notes on a piece of paper and said he'd update it when he could get a connection.

    Apparently, all the workmen had been issued with these phones and they were all cursing about them. "Was better when we had a list" he grumbled.

    1. Miek

      Blame Network

      See title...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @morteus

      Sorry to be a pain - but you have Council workers fitting your bath? This probably means you're living in a Council house? If so - get a job you lazy bugger and stop spending your time on thereg. If you have a job - get out of that house and start renting you thieving git.

      Sorry - but a pet peeve of mine. Council houses should not to be given to everyone - only people in desperate need.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        WTF?

        Eh?

        What makes you think he doesn't have a job?

        Because he rents his house?

        It's a bit of a stretch don't you think?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @skelband

          Try re-reading that rant maybe?

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Alert

    Could do with more detail

    As I still can't see how the iPads are gonna help. What part of the process does the iPad take on? Sounds like another Local Authority that hasn't thought this out properly and entrusted it to some middle manager (who probably isn't qualified to be a manager) and made them the Project Manager (again will not be qualified for this either).

    There are a lot of Local Authority employees that work hard and do a good job, unfortunately they are usually outnumbered by middle management twats that ruin all the good work and waste budgets on daft ideas.

    AC cause I have one of those middle managers.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Alien

    Revisit

    >revealed that there were 4,228 reports of missed bins last year. Costing £40 each to revisit

    Wouldn't it be cheaper to tell the complainants that their bin was at a slight angle to the road and in order to prevent injury to the refuse engineer's back from twisting said bin they were unable to collect it. Oh, and by the way, there will be a fine in the next post.

  8. Dirk Vandenheuvel
    Holmes

    What?

    What are these guys thinking? There are industrial devices for this that will survive a lot more abuse. Those iPads will be all dead in a year.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      WTF?

      A year ? A week more like.

      I worked for a company that had to make deliveries of gas cylinders. We *trialled* the drivers with proper ruggedized tablet devices, and most got broken within the first month. Nothing malicious, just knocks and scrapes and bangs.

      It's pretty obvious this is a stunt to use up any surplus budget, to avoid losing it next year. I really don't see how dishing some fancy office-candy around a heavy industrial environment can be the result of a carefully planned project to improve bin collections.

      I bet a FOI request this time next year will find that >50% of the iPads purchased "can't be located". I also predict a random swoop on refuse collectors residences would reveal an iPad.

      1. Steve Todd

        Knocks and scrapes and bangs

        when it's nailed to the dashboard in a protective mount? That would have to be malicious.

        I'm assuming that the council are buying the base 3G model ('cause the WiFi version doesn't have GPS to start with), they would become large satnav systems with popup messages from base telling them to go back to number 53 etc.

        The main objection seems to be that it's Apple kit (which is priced about the same as competitors), not that it won't solve the problem.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          FAIL

          you clearly

          haven't worked anywhere near heavy manual labour. Binmen have to wear hi-vis jackets which have metal straps and buckles - so they will swing around on entry/exit to the cab.

          Then they wear heavy riggers gloves, which make delicate control difficult, so the screen is more at risk (because the council knows any directive which is going to require the drivers to remove/replace their gloves every minute will be an issue. Especially in my LA which had to spunk extra tens of thousands to the dust cart manufacturers for controls to be workable wearing gloves). Then there are the big boots which get swung around ... and the hard hats.

          However, I am pleased this story ran. Because it is plainly obvious that if an LA can plurge £9K on such a totally inappropriate use of technology, then clearly their council tax payers are getting *very* good value for money.

          By the way, this *isn't* a rant at refuse collectors. They work damn hard (I wouldn't do it) and I feel sorry for them having this frippery foisted upon them.

          FFS even the little smartpad we used in Debenhams to compile our wedding list was built for life in a coal mine. When I queried it, the girl said they had tried 7 different models, and none had lasted for more than a month.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            AFAIK

            The driver doesn't wear gloves. I did it as a fill-in job for a couple of weeks and there was a dedicated driver (me) and a couple of guys to feed the bins into the back of the truck. Again, as far as I know, this is a pretty standard setup...the driver as a rule doesn't do much in the way of moving stuff; the driver's job is to put the vehicle in the right place to make the jobs of the loaders as easy as possible.

            In theory all that would be needed would be a live map with the bin lorry's location (and maybe route, thus making life easier for new/relief drivers too) on it; a view of a few adjacent streets with uncollected bins in (marked by -say- flashing dots). The driver could then efficiently plan the extra missions...all without needing to touch the screen except to turn it on & off at the beginning & end of each shift. I can see how it could work.

            Of course, being a council, I doubt if it'll work like that in practice.

          2. Ivan Headache

            And you clearly

            haven't seen my binmen.

            They wear hi-vis tabards with no metal straps or buckles that swing (if they had those they would be a H&S hazard in their own right).

            The driver never leaves his seat - therefore does not wear any gloves. None of them wear hard-hats (why should they? the sky isn't likely to fall on their heads) and the majority (there's only 2 bin-men per truck (plus the diver)) appear to wear trainers or 'normal-looking' footware (possibly the safety sort) though).

            I can't say I've noticed that they wear heavy riggers gloves, and in any case they don't apear to press anything while doing my street. They just move the bins to the back of the truck and the automation does the rest.

            Thinking about your post, your LA must have tried really hard if they bought dustcarts with controls that couldn't be operated with gloves. Ours have levers with knobs the size of golf-balls and push-button emergency things the size of tennis balls.

          3. Steve Todd
            FAIL

            @AC 14:32 - The DRIVER has to wear heavy gloves?

            Pull the other one. He sits in a nice warm cab while the rest of the crew scurry around outside with the gloves on. I've also yet to see these swinging buckles of which you speak. If, even for one moment we took your claims seriously you seem to be working under the assumption that the screen needs to be permanently accessible and uncovered by something like a polycarbonate flap.

            You seem to be under the impression that a device fixed in a case will suffer the same abuse as a shared mobile one. Think again for your comparisons.

  9. David Dawson
    Meh

    Council does what?

    As far as I'm concerned, the councils job is to collect the bins, repair the roads and educate the kids.

    Anything else is secondary.

    Based on that, they should be spending my money on collecting my crap each week, on roads that don't have potholes and pay the teachers.

    This fits with my philosophy. Investing in an essential service doesn't strike me as a bad idea. If it really does what they say it does (ie, save money). If it doesn't then that would be a problem. tbh though, in the context of a council budget, £9k is not that big a problem to have go horribly wrong.

    Imagine if they tried implementing SAP and got it wrong, causing all of their suppliers to be paid a year after invoice for ages; there by damaging local business who tried to work with the council, until they finally tamed the beast!

    Oh, we laughed. (I'm looking at you Manchester)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @David Dawson

      Not just Manchester - this blog details some of the cock ups further south

      http://www.liddellgrainger.org.uk/ian/MOGGTHEBLOG.html

    2. Graham Dawson Silver badge

      even that much?

      When the councils were set up, they had one, single job and were called local water authorities. The one thing they did ws manage water quality and supplies in that order. Everything else was handled by parishes, incorporated towns and all the little councils that have been slowly but surely erased. Perhaps we should go back to that instead? One advantage is, they wouldn't have a big enough budget to splurge surplus on iToys. They'd also have to be more responsive to local problems rather than spending all their budget on follies and bridges named after the council leader.

      also, I'm starting to think we're like the Hitchens brothers. Only more sane.

    3. Vic

      Re: Council does what?

      > the councils job is to collect the bins, repair the roads and educate the kids.

      Not so, according to my local Councillor.

      He bashed my door the other day and asked if there was anything I'd like to speak to him about. Well, the fact that our bins have been emptied once in 9 weeks and we now have a rat infestation in the street was somewhat to the front of my mind.

      The Council charge for bin collections. But, apparently, bin collections are a "discretionary" service. Which means that, even though they've charged for collecting them, they apparently have no duty whatsoever actually to fulfill that service.

      The twats.

      Vic.

      1. TonyG

        @Vic

        I suggest that you mention the "Environmental Protection Act 1990" to your local Councillor.

        The collection of green waste, for example, can be classed as discretionary as it's above and beyond the legal requirements of the council but the collection of general waste is covered by the above act.

        (Granted there's a lot of get out clauses but in general your councillor is likely talking bollocks).

        1. Vic

          @TonyG...

          > Your councillor is likely talking bollocks

          No change there then.

          Vic.

  10. Joe Montana
    Go

    Encouraging recycling...

    If you want to encourage recycling and reduce landfill use...

    Bring back the old bottle fees, where an extra 10p is added to the price of anything in a bottle, and you get it refunded when you return the bottle. I believe they actually still do this in Holland. Do the same with other types of packaging.

    Also when recycling glass bottles, don't smash them up and melt them down... Just clean them and reuse them.

    Reduce packaging, especially horrible types of packaging like blister packs, back in the days stuff used to come in biodegradable brown paper bags... There is no need for fancy packaging, its whats inside that counts and if companies are concerned that generic packaging will prevent their product from standing out, then institute a blanket ban so everyone is in the same boat. You can also have promotional material on the shelves rather than the packaging. 99% of my household waste is unnecessary packaging.

    Reduce plastic packaging, use paper or card whenever possible... Plastic is mostly only really needed for holding liquids, and then the bottles can be reused as above.

    Treat biodegradable waste separately, that can be rotted down.

    Have convicts and the long term unemployed sort rubbish according to its type, so it can be more easily recycled. Make working a condition of receiving any benefits, if you don't find a better job this is what you do.

    There really isn't a whole lot that needs to go into landfill, most can be recycled or rotted down (i.e. natural recycling)...

    1. bob 46

      ^Agreed. And also..

      Many councils propose charging people who don't recycle enough. This is idiotic. It will only get people's backs up and encourage fly tipping, garden fires etc. Instead, increase council tax a bit, then use the extra to offer financial rewards for people who recycle more. See how that works? The same chavs who would be tipping their rubbish on the street or burning toxic plastic etc to avoid charges will now be actively out LOOKING for stuff to put in their recycling. Net cost exactly the same, net result much more recycling.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @bob 46

        Heh, the cynic in me says that's a bad idea!

        Why? It'll start out as you say, then the council will decide they've encouraged enough people, cut the rewards but not readjust the rates. The money will then get blown on something pointless (£9k of iPads perhaps?)

    2. mark 63 Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      spot on Joe

      Theres no purer form of recycling than straight up immediate re-use. I shudder to think of the energy and resorces that go into melting down a load of glass bottles to make - glass bottles, when just a rinse out would have done.

      Remember that coffee advert recently, where they were all smug that they'd "reduced packaging" ? The advert showed loads of people struggling to carry loose coffee in their pocket, or bra etc , hence the need for packaging . If the stupid bastards just brought a container with them we could have zero packaging!

      A similar soluton could be applied top the carrier bag epidemic

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Agreed

        Charge a bit less if you bring your own container, perhaps.

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