back to article UK Cops 'duped' into arresting wrong LulzSec suspect

The 19-year-old Scotsman fingered Wednesday as a central figure of the LulzSec hacking crew is a fall guy who was framed to take the heat off the real culprit, according to unconfirmed claims from a rival group. “We believe MET Police got the wrong guy and it happens because of lot of disinformation floating on the web,” a …

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Anonymous Coward

I'm guessing the cops are in the process of

erm, "discovering" some pictures of a compromising nature?

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Hum, a couple of questions...

1. whats the broadband speed in the suspects area?

2. if he is released, do the police transport him back/pay for his fare?

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Ru
Big Brother

"do the police transport him back"

Haha! As if. There's a recession on you know, they can't spend money on frivolous stuff like that. Besides, he's bound to have done something, otherwise he wouldn't have come to their attention, right? They just need to hold him long enough to find out what it is.

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Anonymous Coward

RE: "do the police transport him back"

"Everyone is guilty of something, if you look hard enough"

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Silver badge

on point 2

nO the bastards wont

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Pirate

raising enough questions to block any conviction?

Don't know the standards and practices of law on your side of the pond, but could they create enough reasonable doubt around the identification that nobody can be convicted?

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Holmes

Handle identity might not matter

I'm not sure about the UK laws, but if it's akin to the Yanks, suppose the claims are correct, and the scot in question is not the hacker wanted. But they have his computer and a warrant to inspect it. And if they find a smoking gun for some other crime there, prosecution will happen, even if it wasn't for the LulzSec incident.

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Handle identity might not matter

"...But they have his computer and a warrant to inspect it. And if they find a smoking gun for some other crime there, prosecution will happen, even if it wasn't for the LulzSec incident."

It's definately a possibility.

Much in the same way that if they want your DNA, all they have to do is damage your car/property and wait for you to call the police. The police will then send the forensics round.

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Even if they don't find anything...

...I'm sure they'll manage to find some kiddy-porn or similar to justify collaring him. They'll certainly never admit to grabbing the wrong bloke.

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Devil

So who would want to drop dox on LulzSec members?

I mean, what's the motivation here? Paid by Scientology? Moles, Snitches and Canaries like Lamo? What??

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Tit..

A lot of people, The Jester for one.

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FAIL

Themselves for disinfo

I thought web ninjas was made up by sabu to spread disinfo.

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Trollface

Non-story

If the Met have enough evidence to prosecute the person they have in custody they will do so. If they don't, they won't. Smoke and mirrors isn't going to make them suddenly go "hold on lads, we better check the evidence *even more closely*"

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Anonymous Coward

@darren

Really?

You're saying the Met have no history of making-up charges as required?

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RE: Non-story

I think you meant "If they don't [have enough evidence to prosecute], they'll magically "find" some "child porn" and ruin his life anyway.".

I tend to agree that the various attempts at casting doubt on his identity won't make much difference though.

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Megaphone

Ha

Or taking gifts in brown envelops in exchange for "inside info".

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Terminator

The plods

Good job he's a Scottish hacker and not a Brazilian electrician then....

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Anonymous Coward

Really?

I think Annoynmous, LulzSec and Wikileaks are government organisations set up as both a pre-emptive strike and also as honeypots.

Also, with an additional goal of creating an excuse to enforce greater regulation of the internet.

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Sir

I don't believe these shadowy organisations work like that anymore. They tend towards agent provocateurs (sp?) to push the usual suspects into more extreme acts than they would otherwise.

The net effect would be the same however. The internet war has been going on for a while now. The fact that the man in the street may have heard of Anonymous just goes to show how far along it is. Sixteen years ago when I was trying to educate my friends as to this new thing called the internet they were like 'what the hell is it and what's it for?'.

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Unhappy

Damn! You worked it out!

I was there, in Area 51, when we planned the entire thing. We were on the sound stage where we faked the Apollo landings.

But it was The Aliens who suggested it...

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Anonymous Coward

Title

>"I don't believe these shadowy organisations work like that anymore. They tend towards agent provocateurs (sp?) to push the usual suspects into more extreme acts than they would otherwise."

Agreed. Hence my post above.

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Anonymous Coward

herp

facepalm.jpg

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Anonymous Coward

Scots Law

Surely transporting him to London for questioning is illegal, the crime would have been commited in Scotland and therefore covered by Scottish law.

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Anonymous Coward

Rendition flight?

Northern Constabulary is claiming no involvement in this arrest - (via twitter http://twitter.com/#!/northernPolice )

So something's iffy.

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Anonymous Coward

Err...

As I understand it, non-grographic crimes tend to be investigated by the Met, beit Scotland, Ireland, Wales of England. Suspects are transported to the areas where the crimes are being investigated.

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Stop

Try not to make too much out of it

If one of the alleged crimes was being involved with the attack on the SOCA website, he can be sent to the local police force area for questioning and further investigations as necessary.

Also the Met have UK-wide powers of arrest and questioning.

In any case, he is only being held under arrest for questioning and is innocent until proven guilty. He has not been charged with any crime yet, so whether any subsequent charges are tried under English or Scots law is a bit moot.

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FAIL

Re: Scots Law

He's wanted for questioning in the jurisdiction where the damage was done. That would be like Gary McKinnon, Adil Nasir, Carlos the Jackal [...].

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FAIL

Why the heck...

...would they take him all the way from Scotland to bloody *London* to question him? What an utter waste of time and resources. Are there really no cop shops between Shetland and London?

Better, haven't they heard of Skype?

Mike

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Skype?

With the state of broadband to most of the Scottish Islands it's doubtful they'd be able to get a stable enough connection (I know of someone who has to schedule meetings based on the tide - at high tide his internet connection drops).

I agree it's a waste of time and resources but as I understand it the SOP is for the investigating force to perform the questioning - so it's either send him down to London or send a team of police to the Shetlands.

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Re: Why the heck...

"Better, haven't they heard of Skype?"

Skype does not give full data on non verbal behaviour, thus is not very informative where a suspect is dissimulating. The other face of the coin is to be found in PACE, in which police forces are compelled to video record in such a way that the behaviour of interviewers can be assessed for threatening behaviour, as well as the behaviour of suspects.

There is also the small matter of keeping the suspect in jurisdiction so that information pertinent to the offence can be served up in real time for interview purposes, plus the need for interviewers to understand the local culture when interviewing. This informs interview techniques, including ways of tripping up an interviewee, knowing how valid their responses are, and so on.

This use Skype thing that occurs each time Assange and others are mentioned is a natural response amongst people who believe that electronic crimes can be investigated electronically, but it really does fall flat on its face as far as policing, forensic psychology and forensic psychiatry are concerned.

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Ru
Holmes

Extraordinary rendition is all the rage these days

You find someone causing a bit of trouble, and you arrange to have them flown away to some godforsaken morally bankrupt police state where the local law enforcement officials have a reputation for getting what they want out of their suspects and a bit of tendency to shoot people.

As with any other outsourcing deal, results may be mixed but are quite justifiable to management.

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Anonymous Coward

@Ru

It's not Extraordinary Rendition, it's perfectly normal Ordinary Rendition. The suspect has been rendered to the investigating Police Authority in a perfectly normal legal manner.

The whole Extraordinary bit in Extraordinary Rendition is that it is extra to (that is, outside of) the ordinary, ie: Not the normal way of doing things.

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FAIL

You mention falling?

"but it really does fall flat on its face as far as policing, forensic psychology and forensic psychiatry are concerned."

Plus, it lacks a staircase..

But.. they could have just taken him to Glasgow central police station; according to Billy Connolly it has a fine staircase that many people have spontaneously thrown themselves down.

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FAIL

Re: You mention falling?

Childish, but that roughly what I've come to expect from that side of the debate. In responding you took the comments completely out of context, which was the importance of conducting interviews in meat space. Billy Connolly? Things have changed a lot since since he flowered. Police officers even go to prison for perverting the course of justice, and more will in the near future. Just watch the NoTW debate, which will become even more torrid.

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Anonymous Coward

come on guys

if you want a handle call yourself the or smith or a or user. gedit?

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Boffin

Anonymous

You're only anonymous if NOBODY knows who you are. The principle of the internet group of that name ought to be that nobody knows anyone else's real identity, so that if any member is "doxed" (=documented, real identity revealed) he can't dox anyone else.

This, however, creates impossible logistic problems. How can you organise anything secretly if you have no way of knowing who you're talking to? How can you spot an infiltrator? Sure, you can use impenetrable encryption, but how can you be sure you're sending the keys to someone you can trust? Complete anonymity renders you impotent, and every person you reveal your identity to introduces an exponential security risk.

The world's police forces (around a decade behind in technology, as usual) are now realising that they can win against such "anonymous" groups because of the above logic.

Whilst Anonymous, LulzSec, et al may have given us a few laughs this year, I suspect that the kind of thing they've been doing will remain a fringe activity, and will cease to be news in a few years.

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Old school thinking?

The point is you don't organise anything secretly. You do it all in the open. Organising and secrecy are old school.

Anon 'a' says I have posted certain information anyone want it? and anons 'b' and 'c' say yes. No need to know who 'a', 'b' and 'c'; are. Even if 'c' turns out to be CIA all that happens is that the CIA get access to information the probably already have.

or

Anon 'x' says I propose a protest at a specified location on a specified date. 'x' may or may not turn up and if a crowd turns up too, 'x' may or may not join in. There is no need to keep it a secret. Even if the thought police turn up and photograph everybody in the area they still can't positively identify 'x'. In all probability 'x' is in a different country.

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Silver badge

If he is an innocent fall guy...

...(not saying he is, but *if* he is) then how would this affect his eCRB prospects?

And as the other poster said, why was he taken out of the country? To get around the Scottish legal concept of "not proven", perhaps?

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Paris Hilton

My guess?

They (the police, intelligence lead (cough - cough) raids, ... ) are on a path to embarrassment.

Well, at least a 19 year old Shetlander had an all expenses trip to the big smoke courtesy of ....

I hope they at least offer him some guided tour highlights of the big smoke apart from the cell he has probably had to endure.

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Highlights?

I hope they at least offer him some guided tour highlights of the big smoke apart from the cell he has probably had to endure.

Seeing London will remind him why he likes living in the Shetlands.

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Ru

There's a traditional tour

round the station and down the big flight of steps a few times. At speed.

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Anonymous Coward

@Ru

We don't live in the 60s, 70s or 80s, please give over with the "Teh rozzers will beat him until he talks" bullshit. It just makes you sound like a teenage conspiracy theorist.

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Black Helicopters

@AC 11:14

Well said sir, the rozzers have much more sophisticated techniques now.

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AC 11:14

Did the police stop becoming thugs in the 80s?

I must have missed something.

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Holmes

much more sophisticated techniques...

e.g.

red is positive

black is negative

make sure to keep his balls nice and wet

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odd that

all police dramas fro the last 50 years are based on the premise that we are the nice coppers, not like them violent, corrupt old bastards from 10 years ago.

willing suspension of disbelief fail

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Paris Hilton

Exposing Topiary

They should stop trying and just ask. Paris will be more than willing to show them her bush.

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Happy

Pure class!

Hmmm

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Trollface

Stand up?

I'm Topiary and so's my wife - sorry couldn't resist.

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Trollface

No I'm Topiary

And my wife is Louise Boat

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