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back to article Grenade-gasm autogun gets Raoul Moat Taser shells

Metal Storm, the Australian weapons firm famous for its "million rounds a minute" superimposed-projectile technology, has partnered with Taser International to produce an electroshock stun version of its rapid-firing multishot grenade-launcher design. The new Metal Storm format projectile will be based on Taser's existing XREP, …

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So, if I understand correctly....

this can be used to fire multiple taser rounds at high speed, which will presumably mean that the poor sod on the receiving end will probably get multiple high-voltage, incapacitating shocks one after the other - which will probably end up incapacitating their heart, permanently! Wouldn't a bullet be simpler?

The whole point about tasers (according to the marketing spin) is that they are meant to be used with care, in specific, well thought out situations, to non-lethally disable armed individuals who pose a threat to others. Spraying them at high speed in the general direction of a crowd of peaceful demonstrators is not what the adverts suggest they'll be used for (but I bet they will be!)

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Anonymous Coward

@Pen-y-gors

Yes, a bullet would be simpler but we need to think differently. This is a bullet with a torture device attached.

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FAIL

Very true...

Agree with the poster above. They haven't made headway because fast firing "spray and pray" solutions aren't adapted to the counter-insurgency wars of today. Precision is more of a problem, hence the move away from open sights to combat optics, be it ACOG, reflex sights or whatever solution is preferred for the situation. These things decrease training time, hence training cost, as well as ammunition use (and again ,cost). Ammunition is horrendously expensive now!

Each US marine carries 7 x 30 round magazines for their M4 carbine. That's 210 rounds. Any firefight usually produces the usage of 2.5 magazines within a 10 minute period if he's careful. Bulk 5,56 ammo costs about 1 USD per 2 or 3 rounds. Do the maths for a single firefight with a platoon sized contigent and you'll easily get to 1200 USD/firefight. Trying to sell the armed forces things which shoot 40mm grenades at a time (at 200$ a pop!) or 1 million rounds a minute will just cause heads to nod.

This company however would have made a mint in the vietnam war, just look up "puff the magic dragon" - converted C-47's fitted with minguns which would rain down hell into the jungle, for not much benefit, but would chew through 60,000 rounds of ammo a minute!!!

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Big Brother

"bullet with a torture device attached"

You say that like it is a bad thing.

Well, it might be bad if you were a bad guy, but hey...

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Black Helicopters

@ Pen-y-gors

Sadly I'd have to agree; bullets would be more simple if it weren't for the fact they can't be called "less-lethal" and even "less lethal" weapons can't be called "non-lethal" anymore becuase they actually are in the hands of over-zealous Plod!

Taser-based weapons are a basically a workaround for countries with sensible firearms laws, nothing more.

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Unhappy

Please

Don't tase tase tase tase tase me bro!

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"less-lethal"

Full metal jacket rounds are less lethal than hollow points, statistically speaking... isn't that good enough? :)

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Now then...

OK, I'm a pacifist, and opposed to arming our police. I don't like the idea of weaponry in the hands of the state, or the populace at large.

But all that said, doesn't Metal Storm sound like it would be a wonderful place to work?

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Re: a wonderful place to work?

Depends if you joined with the thought of a wonderful share option scheme and creating something that changes the industry.

1,000,000 rounds a minute is cool, but reload is laborious and in most engagements wounding is far more effective than killing as it disables and puts a draw on the enemy, it probably has it's very niche market but most of the time it would be like bringing a hand grende to a knife fight.

This weapon however seems more practical, a multi shot taser (for multiple targets rather than one!), as long as it's used as a step down from a "more lethal" weapon and not a step up from a batton.

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If you need to fire a million rounds a minute

Learn to aim. Seriously.

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@Thomas 4

If Metal Storm's products were that useful they'd probably sold any (or more). I really cannot see in which way firing a million rounds a minute is any different to e.g. a Claymore mine. Well, the former can be interrupted and somewhat reloaded but I still think a simple directional mine would be much cheaper and of more use.

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Black Helicopters

Better idea

If you really cannot hit something with a million rounds, try the newest invention from Metl Storm:

THE GRAVESTONE -

We decided that as a million rounds were not enough to guarantee killing your target, we melted down the bullets to form a lead slab with a very large surface area and weight. Simply helicopter the slab over your target and drop. The Gravestone is also the world's first fully resuable modern weapon system, assuming you don't mind the red smears.

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Mushroom

Dangerous...

... for whom? Looks like the the arms industry have just declared war on the civil population. I think that we should all invest in body armour, which would also boost the profits for the merchants of death (tm), so a win-win for a much neglected and vital corner of industry.

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12 gauge tasers?

THAT'll wake you up in the morning ... What's next? 16 inch bean-bags?

I don't know what the "million rounds per minute" folks are smoking, but I'm planning on standing upwind at the next Vegas gun show ...

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TRT
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WTF?

Battery on board...

so long as no-one hacks the battery firmware...

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Metal Storm - changing tack

This marks a change for MS as they had previously been developing their rapid fire weapons as anti-missile or anti-aircraft as opposed to anti-personnel. The idea was that with rapid fire from multiple barrels a moving wall of lead would destroy even fast moving incoming targets - which sounds nice on paper.

As people have said - if you are firing a million rounds a minute, you should aim better and I think this is why they haven't sold anything yet - anti-missile missiles with sophisticated tracking have seized the upper-hand in military circles. So maybe this is why MS are now looking at shotgun size applications although the potential for collateral damage (even from taser shots) makes me think twice about such rapid fire weapons as a hand-held option.

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Devil

MS stuff

Was a good vid, but generely of bugger all use that I could see. bore sighted sigle use narrow cone of fire and a bugger to reload.

Electrically fired organ gun was my thought on my first look at their stuff

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Black Helicopters

Think different

The plus for Metal Storm tech in anti-personnel weaponry is the capacity and simplicity of the weapon rather than its super-fast rate of fire -- the million-rounds-a-minute deal was an anti-missile system, not meant to be man-portable.

The M203 underbarrel grenade launcher currently available for the M16 rifle is a single-shot item; it has to be opened and manually reloaded after every shot. The Metal Storm grenade launcher could fire three rounds from a device about the same size as the M203 without the rifleman having to stop and reload every time. Adding an autoloader and magazine feed for 40mm grenade shells would make the M203 very heavy and bulky and it would also be prone to jamming etc. Sadly for the Metal Storm shareholders, making their device squaddie-proof and getting paid for making them has so far eluded their engineers and salesmen.

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pretty sure

The sustained ROF is lower for the MS 3 shot UBGL than the M203 they were trying to replace, also loss of flexibity of ammo choice

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Video on Youtube, where else?

There's somewhat amateurish video on Youtube of the MS three-round underbarrel launcher in action. Three rounds in three seconds (it kicks a bit when fired and the weapon has to be brought down onto target again). The regular M203 is a lot slower to feed than that. Reloading three separate rounds into the MS takes longer than a single-round reload in the M203 (see the end of Scarface for a movie treatment of the process) but I'd estimate it's about the same time on a round per round basis.

Cons: the MS unit is bigger and heavier than the M203, I suspect the range of ammo types (smoke, fragmentation etc) available are limited and probably more expensive than the conventional M203 cartridge, the effective launch range may be reduced, it may be more fragile and less squaddie-proof than the M203 and it is almost certainly a lot more expensive.

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More 'Cons'

Extended rate of fire for the MS underslung unit suffers badly once you go past three shots - you have to dismount and replace the entire barrel/magazine unit to reload.

Three-round capacity is also of limited use - not often you need to hose an area with greandes.

Lastly, what do you do with the unit if you've only needed one grenade? Keeping track of how many rounds you got left can get a bit tedious over time.

"Did he fire two grenades, or three? In all this excitement I forgot, myself. Do ya feel lucky?"

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Not in the video I saw

"you have to dismount and replace the entire barrel/magazine unit to reload"

The video I saw showed no need to dismount and remount the MS launcher from the M-16, just open the rear of the breech and feed three rounds in then close it up again. It's possible you saw or were told about an earlier version which did require a dismount and remount.

"not often you need to hose an area with grenades" -- I can think of several situations where that would be useful, such as deploying smoke grenades to cover an area in front of your position. The MS launcher is a "semi-auto" system requiring a pull of the trigger for each grenade launched, it's not full-auto always firing all three rounds when used.

"Lastly, what do you do with the unit if you've only needed one grenade? " If you've got time and cover you can replace the used round by adding another to the stack in the breech. Your quibble is a bit like saying it's too difficult to keep track of how many rounds in a rifle's magazine have been expended.

I am reminded of the anecdotal quotes by retired majors over the centuries about the introduction of bolt-action/magazine-fed/self-loading rifles that they would lead to the undermining of a soldier's essential skills because they were too easy to use and wasteful of ammunition to boot.

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Big Brother

Metal Storm, the reason why

With the impending collapse of the global economy and all the social problems that will incur, imagine Greece on a global scale. the powers that be will need an effective way to control mass, continued demonstrations that will be a result. With a couple of these you can very quickly neutralize a large demonstration rather effectively.

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Joke

two words

Payment Terms.

Dont think Greece could pay pro-forma, let alone 30 days.

Still I can see the procurement request landing on the IFC's desk

"Can you buy us million round taser, will exchange for ouzo and falaffel"

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Re: Metal Storm, the reason why

It gets better or worse, depending on your choice of side:

http://www.metalstorm.com/release/Channel10news.html

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Joke

Title lost

Firefighting/crop dusting type plane full of water, dropped on the protesters and some exposed mains wires.

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How is it against...

Head Crabs?

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Silver badge

Lice are easy.

Shave one side, light the other & wait for 'em with an icepick.

I'm going, I'm going, stop throwing peanuts at me ...

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Unhappy

Ouch!

Aside from the nasty belt from the zapper, it looks like the shell has little vanes on it to make it spin for accuracy.

And then it has 4 prongs on the end for delivering the shock. It looks more like it would simply rip off a small circle of flesh on impact.

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Mushroom

@ Thomas 4

If you need to fire a million rounds a minute ... you're probably in WWZ.

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Nope

Zombies take precisely 1 bullet to bring down. You put one in the heead then move on to the next one. Spraying masses of bullets at them is only going to waste ammo and reduce your accuracy.

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Re: Nope

That's something that I could never work out; if they're dead how can they be killed?

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As to WWZ.

Gasoline balloons followed by dragonsbreath rounds; who are the zombies going to complain to, the inhuman rights commission?

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IT Angle

BOFH-gasm

And upon reading this article, Simon had a BOFH-gasm.

"Just think of it! The Boss, the whole Bean Counter department, AND all the lusers, in less than a millisecond!"

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Whatever happened to stun grenades ?

As successfully used by the SAS in the Iranian Embassy siege of about 1980, and the German gentlemen with short hair cuts shortly after.

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Happy

The actual reason for this Taser / Metal Storm announcement is...

...that Taser International lost a major product liability lawsuit the previous day. $10M to the family of a healthy young man (Darryl Turner) killed by a taser shot to the chest. CEO Smith was almost certainly timing this announcement very carefully to try to distract the market.

Of course Taser International continues to deny the risks, but the facts are that they've lost yet another highly-significant lawsuit and even their share of the judgment (~$3M) is equal to many years of potential profit. Not to mention that their insurance company is probably in a $6M foul mood.

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Unhappy

"Grenade-gasm autogun"

Given Friday's news from Norway couldn't this gun pr0n article wait for a less sensitive time? It is, after all, more likely to be based on a press release from Metal Storm/Taser International rather than any urgent, breaking news.

Just saying...

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At that rate of fire, assembled and fleeing people are

likely to be pierced in many places aside from the meaty parts. What will MS do when faced with lawsuits arise from their device accidentally discharging multiple rounds erroneously and at the wrong heights when multiple bystanders and others are struck in the eyes, throat, and groin? What will that amount of "juic" do to someone struck in the arteries or in the neck or eye socket? Would it fry the eye like a scrambled egg? Will it numb the brain?

Sounds to me more like when huge assemblies refuse to disband peacefully and quick-like, the police should herd the crowd and hem them in with inflexible barricades and then further subdivide them to the point of their self-isolating. Peaceable citizens enter the green door in 2 minutes, calmly, and you go home unarrested, non-booked. Incorrigible assholes, stay defiantly where you are for 5 minutes and just see what comes your way if you're not factually blind, deaf, or crippled.

Might be cheaper than paying for all those lawsuits that may result from blinded and fried and heart-disrupted "targets" ...

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"Warhead"

LOL!!!! I never thought of tips of bullets having "warheads", hahaha.

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Boffin

A little realtiy

"One million rounds a minute" is a *great* headline

Whereas 1 round every 50 microseconds isn't. Same fact, different presentation.

High rates of fire reduce muzzle climb and in principle allow placing several rounds on 1 target *accurately*. thisis why the H&K G11 uses it. it's also a caseless ammo design with a clever rotating breech block to achieve the the high ROF (not sure what happened to it).

The reality is you'd select a burst level, hit the trigger and fire them.

As for reload I'd assume a system like the Multiple Launch Rocket System of prepackaged boxes, or at least a tube with a single column of rounds in.

However it's quite surprising they have made *no* serious military sales.

BTW if this taser cartridge is fired with a full power load it's still likely to hit with a fair degree of force and being solid could kill in the same that "Baton" rounds have if fired at too close a range.

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Headmaster

Not 12-bore,

12-gauge.

I expeceted better from a reporter of Mr Page's calibre.

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Expeceted?

OK ... I agree, but ...

:-)

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