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The first major update to Apple's Mac operating system in some five years is nearly ready, and what has been removed is as significant as its improvements. Mac OS X 10.7, known informally as Lion, continues the trend of removing "legacy" components and technologies from OS X with a zeal that would leave Microsoft quivering in …

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Maybe

Maybe you should let the past go. If you have a computer that is five years or older, or are using a word processor from 2004, then maybe you should spend some dosh trying to keep up with the times. On the other hand, Apple probably reckons these people aren't going to spend any coin getting the latest and greatest.

Also, I would be curious(-ish) to see how many LibreOffice users are running Macs. What? All six of them would need to download Java before they can save their Magnum Opus?

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Actually, no

I can't actually see why we MUST drop older computers. It's exactly the "must always update" approach that is filling landfills. A further issue is that whenever we get better hardware, software quickly catches up to remove all those extra cycles, usually for crap you don't need.

I'm pretty sure that if I could use a platform working 10 years ago it would absolutely fly on today's hardware and honestly not lose that much in the way of functionality. But hey, that wouldn't make anyone money except the actual owner..

As for keeping apps open whilst upgrading an OS, you must be a complete moron to do so but I agree that it can happen because Apple makes it "easy" which will lure the average user into a false sense of security. To do a proper point upgrade you'd do a restart, make a full bare metal backup, then let lose whatever update process exists.

Personally I hope there will be disks somewhere as I want to take this opportunity to do a completely new install..

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Title

Not sure I get you. Downloaded software can't fill a landfill, so you must mean hardware, and yet you want to run old software on new hardware for the performance increase? As for money, It makes plenty of money to sell hardware, but with it will always come new software - that's why we didn't stop at Office XP, because they have to sell you a new one every few years or go bust.

When you download, you can burn a disc from the image.

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Anonymous Coward

LibreOffice just fine, thanks

I've been using OpenOffice for many years now (alongside MS Office and iWork - I switch depending on the requirements). When the openoffice.org site went down recently, I downloaded the latest LibreOffice instead. Seems to be work fine.

I also recollect that the latest features notes for LibreOffice stated that the code for saving/loading files had been rewritten in C++, so I suspect the Java problem has disappeared anyway. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that point.

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Actually I use LibreOffice on my mac...

but as I'm a Java developer I'm likely to have Java well and truly installed long before I first need to even view something someone sends me in LibreOffice, let alone want to save something. :-)

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Anonymous Coward

... or maybe not

> On the other hand, Apple probably reckons these people aren't going to spend any coin getting the latest and greatest.

Perhaps but not necessarily. On average I've bought one Apple desktop or notebook computer every year since 2002 (either for home or business use) and upgraded OS as soon as it's become available. I have two copies of Microsoft Office 2011 home and business edition installed and a couple of thousand pounds worth of licences for other software, but also have LibreOffice installed on my main work and home machines.

I won't be upgrading to Lion on my latest i7 iMac home machine though because there's a certain game dating from 2002 that was only ever released for PPC to which I'm quite attached. It will also probably mean that I'll hold off updating hardware at home as long as possible as all the new hardware will have Lion installed. So Apple may end up losing an admittedly small amount of business, but perhaps for reasons other than you had in mind.

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Old is good

I loved old systems, I kept my dual Pentium III (with ECC!) around til about 2009 when I zapped it on accident. Windows 2000, Word 97, it was beautiful. Begrudginly updated...

Not that I don't love my new Macbook and iPad.

I will say this though; I can see why Apple would focus on the new. Obviously you can't sell to someone who isn't buying, right? If one wants to use old software, Apple isn't forcing anyone to upgrade anything.

And if you really want to go hardcore, you can just fire up Qemu for Mac and install Windows 3.11 like I have :)

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Gold badge

I can beat that one, I think..

Still have a couple of Psion Organiser II's around, complete with peripherals and software libraries. Must dig up a few 9v batteries..

As for hardcore, Im saddened to see that in Windows 7 EDLIN has finally been left out from command line, but that's for pussies anyway. Real men use "copy con someprogram.exe" :-).

Joking aside, I'm not stating that I have anything against new stuff (hardware or software), I just seem to have more and more problems with the seeming waste of resources we're required to accept. I'm not a fan of anything other than usefulness. I have an iPhone because I have use for it, and I bought a MacBook for research, and it proved to be so much better that I ditched everything I had on Windows, leaving a WinXP and an OpenSUSE partition in Parallels.

The promise is always faster and more efficient, yet I see that never delivered. Well, switching to Mac made that come closer, but there too waiting is required - hence my desire to rebuild from scratch when OSX 10.7 is here. I want SPEED, and not the snorty stuff. Hence my aim to slap an SSD into the Mac in a few months (first need to do some Filevault testing).

So there. Old is good, and new isn't always automatically better :-).

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Mushroom

Re: Title

"Not sure I get you. Downloaded software can't fill a landfill, so you must mean hardware"

Of course they meant hardware. Sheesh: you just have to read the first two sentences while keeping your brain in gear.

"and yet you want to run old software on new hardware for the performance increase?"

It's all about *choosing* to be able to do so, not being forced to upgrade *both* hardware and software in some kind of "good cop, bad cop" vendor role-play.

"As for money, It makes plenty of money to sell hardware, but with it will always come new software - that's why we didn't stop at Office XP, because they have to sell you a new one every few years or go bust."

Ah, it's the parade of shiny. What with the illegal bundling of Microsoft products, Microsoft selling people the same products again because of a configuration change, and Microsoft squeezing update revenues out of the punter, plus "you need the latest version of XYZ to run this new version of ABC" shenanigans, I wouldn't worry about Microsoft's revenues or margins (nor those of Apple, who control both sides of the shakedown) if I were you.

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FAIL

@Fred Flintstone:

"I'm pretty sure that if I could use a platform working 10 years ago it would absolutely fly on today's hardware and honestly not lose that much in the way of functionality."

You do realize that 10 years ago, you barely had USB support in Windows, you definately didn't support TRIM, SATA 2/3, PCIe, effective multi-cpu computing (no, most programs were, and some still are, single threaded), and Windows 2000 had a nasty 128GB(ish) hard drive limitation requiring a hack (to enable LBA) to work around. And yes, this is the same 10-year-old equipment you're speaking of.

One other thing to mention, "I could use a platform working 10 years ago it would absolutely fly on today's hardware" sorry, no you can't. Just try installing Win98/2k native on the metal. You'll quickly realize that your 10yr-old "platform" is now relegated to VM-only status. Might as well claim that playing the original Super Mario World is all you need, because the graphics were good enough and would simply fly if played on a Wii.

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@Ammaross Danan

I think you will find the nasty 128GB limit was an IDE issue (which has a LONG history of being crap and incrementally fixed to a new level of crappyness) as it worked fine if you had a SCSI disk (or hardware RAID controller that presented disks as SCSI volumes).

Oh and I have installed w2k on 2008 metal, all it needed was a floppy with the disk controller driver!

But you are right that running legacy stuff in a VM is the way forward. In fact, running today's stuff in a VM has lots of advantages (other than speed and convenience). Easy of migrating from machine to machine without a re-install is one of them...

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Happy

edlin

Is there in 32 bit Win 7, but not in 64 bit, as the 64 bitversion can't run 16 bit apps.

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Flame

EDLIN ..... and Telnet

I realise you're probably kidding on the EDLIN one but I am still wondering which Brainiac decided to leave telnet out of the command line in Windows 7 by default. I realise you can add it in but it's a pain in the arse dropping to a command prompt and finding it's not there....

Some of us *like* command lines... hufff....

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Yes, me too

and that's why I download my JavaVM on Windows and even Linux, can't see the problem in doing the same thing on OS X.

Instead of some Apple JVM they have now OpenJava, sounds good to me.

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Maybe not.

I'm driving a 16 year old Alfa romeo. It is 2 litres, makes me smile, and goes from A to B in something approximating a straight line (depending on enthusiasm)

I could perhaps save a small amount of CO2 by changing it, at the expense of the huge amounts needed to molish a new car.

My 16 year old indesit washes my shirts.

I've been married to the same wonderful woman for 32 years.

My house was built in 1969, and apart from a bit of extra insulation has needed nothing doing to it since.

I don't believe I need to replace all those things just because newer ones are available.

Same with 'puters. Word 2K and 2003 were no better than W97. In fact they introduced autonumbering and style handling bugs. I've kept away from the two latest versions as though they have plague. XP is good enough, and as long as I don't use IE and have my smoothwall box on the router, I don't get any problems with it. So I see no point spending money and time on an upgrade-for-the-sake-of-it.

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Game in VirtualBox?

Apple doesn't like people running VMs of OS X on non-Apple hardware, but could you run an old version of OS X in a VM for you game?

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Linux

...don't understand tech well enough to pick it apart.

>> You do realize that 10 years ago, you barely had USB support in Windows, you definately didn't support TRIM, SATA 2/3, PCIe, effective multi-cpu computing (no, most programs were, and some still are, single threaded), and Windows 2000 had a nasty 128GB(ish) hard drive limitation requiring <<

...it's funny that you mention these sorts of things since it's Macs mostly that are limited in this manner now. TRIM and SATA are both things that you can either take or leave. So is any form of internal expansion bus (esp. for a Mac). And "multi-cpu" computing only really requires a good OS level scheduler in order to get some benefit from. A lot of what you are whining about is really nothing to be fixated on. Certainly not worth limiting yourself in terms of upgrades.

I created my first fanboy style ugly cable octopus with such a machine.

...and I had a ~ 10 year old PC laptop that I put a 100G hard drive into. Was very effective thing for helping to improve the longevity of the thing (along with the memory upgrade). That machine is not far off of a modern netbook or macbook air really.

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Linux

Whining about stuff that Apple does poorly anyway...

As far as the 128G limit goes, this is a silly thing to whine about since most Macs have rather meagre laptop drives anyways. This means that Macs always have a smaller hard drive than whatever is typical for any sort of PC. Been this way since the 68k days. Once you've booted the system, the BIOS likely doesn't matter so much anymore.

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Happy

VMs to the rescue :)

That it is why VMWare is worth the money :) You can run Win98SE software and not worry about IDE limitations in a nice VM, alongside your DOS programs (wordstar still runs circles around Word for text editing on a current machine), and Win 2000 programs which will not run under Win 7, plus, of course, OSx in another virtual machine if you really want to. You can do it all with cut and paste from apps run different OSes, shared local folders, network access, and fairly small speed penalty.

As for bare metal support, my quad core AMD w 8GB of RAM boots DOS 5.0 just fine from a 1TB SATA disk drive (2GB partition) :)

I recently re-installed Win 2000 Pro for some older CAD programs on a 3GHz AMD quad core machine with a SATA drive, with no issues. Yes, you need to slipstream SP4 and install third party drivers for USB 2.0 support, and you are limited by DirectX 9.0x and your driver support for video and peripherals. On the plus side, it runs very fast, and have not seen any issues. I see no reason why SSDs would have issues either, if you use models which do garbage collection in the background, when the disk is idle (see Agility-1 drives from OCZ, with no TRIM support needed at the OS level for firmware v 1.6 or later, I use one for XP).

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Hmm..

if you haven't upgraded you app software in seven years, it strikes me you're not the kind of person to jump straight onto a new version of the OS either to be honest with you...

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Not really

Oddly enough I Am someone who usually dives straight in for Apple OS uodates - they usually have functionality I desire and they're resobnable priced.

On the other hand, I'm still using Office v.X has my workhorse productivity suite - and why not, it's fast, and does everything I need. I also have old (legal) copies of Photoshop, Quark Xpress & Dreamweaver that I have absolutely no intention of upgrading since I only use them about twice a year.

I agree I'm probably atypical, but the lack of Rosetta is a pain. I suspect I'll probably have to update office and work out some kind of dual-boot system for the other stuff in the long term.

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Blizzard games

Yes, not looking forward to not being able to play Diablo 2 et al.

Shame about the dropping of Rosetta.

If I was Steve Jobs, and wanted to get rid of legacy but still wanted to make a few quid, I would include it as optional purchase from the App Store.

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Dual boot

You can always partition the drive and boot into an older copy of OSX?

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jai
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Diablo 2

so just wait until Diablo 3 comes out at the end of the year

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meh

Thing is no one is forcing you to upgrade...

Just because Apple are releasing Lion - you don't HAVE to upgrade.

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What about my scanner?

Canoscan LIDE 30 - Pretty sure the scan software is run through rosetta - and I got that when I moved to MacOSX

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Anonymous Coward

Hardly Apples fault...

if Canon refuse to upgrade drivers for perfectly serviceable hardware in the vain hope that we'll all go out and buy the newer one. FWIW, I have the same scanner and use VueScan on Snow Leopard without the need for Rosetta.

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Hardly cannon's fault

Apple refuses to support their arcitecture. Apple has a long history of dropping platforms. If you want to have continued support, you buy (insert anyone but apple here), if you want pretty shinies, you buy apple.

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Trollface

Oninoshiko

Utter rot. That's architecture that was dropped 6 years ago and a scanner that was released over 9 years ago. Thing is Microsoft did similar with Vista and Window 7, and I said exactly the same then. It's up to the manufacturer to support their hardware, not the OS developer.

"If you want to have continued support, you buy (insert anyone but apple here), if you want pretty shinies, you buy apple." Boilerplate fuckwittery as per usual from a habitual troll. Bored of ZDnet and Gizmodo?

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Canon and/or scanners etc

When windows 7 came out everyone used the opportunity to no longer update the drivers for old peripherals - I have a Minolta Dual Scan III that's in the same boat although I haven't tried installing in compatibility mode. Seems the same will no doubt happen for the removal of Rosetta. I believe that VueScan (http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/vuescan.htm#supported) is an ideal replacement for anyone in this boat. Haven't tried it yet but then since getting a DSLR I can't muster the enthusiasm to carry on scanning all those old negatives.

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FAIL

@"Hardly cannon's fault" - Whose fault is it then?

I had a LIDE 30 and it never came close to working on OSX or on Linux. I looked at the various Linux compatibility info and Canon's stuff is barely on it. Bottom line: _no_ more Canon peripherals for me, quite happy with my Epson V300 instead.

Don't blame Apple in this case. Reserve that for their lack of support for Blu-Ray which is most irritating.

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Anonymous Coward

@Jean-luc

"I had a LIDE 30 and it never came close to working on OSX or on Linux." Well, you didn't try particularly hard then. Canon LiDE 30 was released around 2002 and stopped selling around 2005 and is supported by all versions of OS X up to 10.4. It is also supported, and has been supported by SANE on Linux for a number of years too; it works beautifully on the Ubuntu partition of my laptop. In fact you can use SANE to run the device under Snow Leopard too. It works under Windows 7 as well (not with SANE), however for some reason (which, naïvety aside, we all know) Canon do not fully support it. To reiterate; device support shouldn't be down to the OS developer.

Blu-ray? Meh. The quality is superb and it can store a large amount of data, but it isn't as compelling as DVD when that format was first released way back when. Sony have done their usual and in doing so made companies like Apple look positively generous with their various licensing terms.

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@Dilbert1969

Canon are a bunch of ****ts for deliberately not supporting older, perfectly fine hardware by not releasing drivers. I have a little Canon LiDE scanner which is great but drivers are not available for Snow Leopard. I only occasionally use it so I can't justify buying a new one and would not want to throw it away just for want of a driver.

It *does* work perfectly fine under Ubuntu however (go figure) so I simply run a virtual Ubuntu install using Virtual Box for times when I need to scan.

I see virtualisation as it becomes more common solving more problems like this.

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Re: Canon and/or scanners etc

Nikon are just as bad or worse for scanners. Nikon never released an Intel Mac version of "Nikon Scan", which means you can't run this in Rosetta as a plug-in under an x86 version of Photoshop. And the old standalone version in Rosetta stopped working completely in Snow Leopard to be greeted by "no plan to fix". Instead they just recommend you get Vuescan or similar 3rd party product.

I can confirm Vuescan seems to work, and has the advantage of batch scanning and auto-crop when processing batches. I have had one problem with the auto-exposure being off, but I'm not sure if this is the scanner or Vuescan...

PS: Generally the camera stores seem to be recommending the film attachment on something like the Epson V700 nowadays, for scanning film as well as it being a flatbed scanner as well.

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same here with Canon

Canoscan 2720F, runs fine with VUEscan on OpenSuSe, even in 64bit now.

The last Windows where I got it working was XP with old Adaptec drivers.

It's just like that, there comes the time when you either get rid of your old stuff or keep it running.

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somehow

It's not easy to get the negs flat, especially when shooting classic B/W stock like Addox and Efke.

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Meh

@AnotherNetNarcissist

"Well, you didn't try particularly hard then."

Probably not, but I did try. SANE did not seem to help me out, as I recall and the information on the LIDE 30 at the time was too limited to give me much trust that it was well-supported. I don't pretend to be great at admin and installing exotic hardware on 'nix. I am just a developer. In fact, that is precisely why I moved to OSX. If 3-4 hours of work does not result in success and if the subject does not hold great interest for me, I will move on.

Some people may care to put in hours to tweak a $80 scanner to work on Linux, with no help from the manufacturer. Personally, I'd rather get hardware with at least some level of vendor support, so Canon is on my s*** list from now on. I didn't bin the LIDE 30, but put it in our common thrash room, with a note that it worked fine on Windows. Sure somebody picked it up.

After reading this article, I checked Epson about the V300 and yes, they support it on OS X Lion and have updated drivers. Contrast that with Canon who clearly doesn't want my business :-)

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FAIL

hrm

Is someone pretending to me on ZDNet and Gizmodo? I wont say I never post there, but it's not common.

But to your point (I'll be charitable here), "a scanner that was released over 9 years ago" you seriously expect Cannon to keep supporting it? For how long? Should I still be able to get support on SCSI scanners? But if anyone is to blame Cannon isn't continuing to sell you anything, Apple is, and Apple is discontinuing an API.

It's up the the OS manufacturer to support their APIs

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Resume

The resume feature cuts both ways.

Sometimes at work I leave my Windows desktop on standby (yes yes I know not environmentally friendly etc), but next day come in to find it has rebooted itself. All of my windows gone - VPN, email, spreadsheets, documents.

(After this I learnt the hard way to save documents before sneaking home!)

So resume would be handy.

However, at home, I often have a lot of nonsense open, browsers and applications etc. that a reboot can be refreshing to just clear everything back to an empty desktop.

Perhaps the best compromise would be a Firefox-style "Restore / Start New Session" choice.

How long before Jobs bans JVMs and Flash players from the desktop?

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Lucky You

You get an option that says "re-open windows on startup".

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Happy

hmmmm.

Resume... Wonder how many arguments that will cause when people are exploring the seedier side of the internet and quickly kill the app on interruption....

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Anonymous Coward

I'm a bit confused about Resume

To me it sounds exactly the same as hibernate. If you hibernate a windows computer (just realised I've never actually used it on my ubuntu laptop) the next time you start up all your programs and documents should be there just how you left them.

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@a bit confused about resume

They already do hibernate, including support for power outage, resume is more akin to the firefox feature which reopens all your tabs when you relaunch it but it's system wide and works across reboots.

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"Quit and discard windows"

If you hold down the option key when clicking on, say, the Safari menu, the Quit option becomes "Quit and discard windows". You can also press Command-option-Q to do this.

After doing so, the next restart of the app doesn't open any earlier windows.

As someone else noted, when rebooting or shutting down you get an option to remember open things.

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As far as flash is concerned

No need to wait for Jobs, I did it myself.

Windows comes without flash, OS X still contains it and you have to remove it yourself.

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FAIL

call me pedantic but...

Office 2008 didn't feature the ribbon interface. 2011 does, but all the menus are still present, so you don't have to use it.

Oh and Tiger was released in 2005, Leopard in 2007 and Snow Leopard in 2009.

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And also the comment about cursing

when the continual save function overwrites your good file, straight after remarking how the feature is remodelled on time machine !!! Er missing the entire point of what Time Machine is about !!!

And the "It's not all bad news" comment. FFS Register, it's almost as though the loss of some legacy features support is what you were most eager to talk about (when all users can stay put with Snow Leopard if they wish) and the actual long list of great new features is of little significance to you, except to provide a platform to seek out where the OS has adopted Windows or Ubuntu features, with one sentence descriptions of all the superbly implemented and well executed new stuff.

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Joke

You are pedantic

You did ask....

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@Sir Wiggum You have a choice

When you click Shutdown/Restart the normal 'Are you sure you want to Shutdown, if you don't do anything for a minute I'll shutdown on my own' dialoge box pops up but there's a new option (ticked by default) that says 'Reopen windows when logging back in'. It works very well!

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LMDE

I have a intel core solo Mac Mini. The upgrade path is assured simply because it dual boots Linux Mint Debian Edition & Snow Leopard vie Bootcamp & rEFIt. You could probably do the same with Ubuntu but there is no need to reinstall ever with LMDE

http://www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php

http://www.maclife.com/article/howtos/install_linux_your_mac

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