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back to article Sony unsure if PlayStation Network user data was stolen

Sony has yet to determine if customers' personal information and credit card details have been stolen as part of an external intrusion into its system that has left PSN, the PlayStation network, inaccessible for five days. “Our efforts to resolve this matter involve re-building our system to further strengthen our network …

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Flame

Brilliant

I ran Linux on my PS3. I was a bit annoyed when they removed it, but not hugely, because it ran like a dog. Now we have a bunch of toy-out-of-the-pram arseholes potentially nicking my credit card details because they can't cope with the fact that Sony won't let them pirate games. I'm prepared to get massively downvoted for this, but the facts of the matter are:

1: as above, Linux ran like a dog on the PS3. The only reason people would legitimately run it were if they were running it in a cluster or if they were genuinely interested in programming for a different architecture than commonly available, but

2: the number of people doing this are miniscule, and probably wouldn't care if they still has access to the PSN or not

3: To everyone about to say 'it's my console, I paid for it, I should be able to do what I want with it', well so should I. And I want to play games (yes, GAMES on my GAMES CONSOLE) without wallhackers, aimbots and other tossers wrecking my experience on MY console that I paid for, bringing us onto

4: as with people who wanted to play around with a new architecture, I'm sure there are some very clever homebrew guys who would do some very clever things. But the vast majority would be pirates. And if that got widespread, that would wreck the quality of games for everyone.

Cue the whining...

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Wrong on most points

First: it's not about pirating games. As I've said repeatedly the hackers who have the skills to get jailbreaks done initially don't give a damn about pirating games. As for your other points:

1: Yes, it was. Hence GeoHotz's original hack to give it full access to the hardware. That hack posed no real security threat to Sony, but they opened themselves up to hacks that would by forcing people who wanted to run Linux to jailbreak the PS3. Mega dumb move on their part.

2: Dead wrong. It may have been a minuscule percentage, but that minuscule percentage added up to thousands of people. Some of whom would have been upset about losing PSN access, or, more importantly, security updates for their $700 research computer.

3: There are much better and more effective ways of dealing with cheaters than pissing off the homebrew community.

4: Complete bullshit. Most jailbreakers want homebrew games. At the very most maybe half of them want to pirate games. Even if they all wanted to pirate games, as you seem to think, well piracy on PC, Wii, and XBox360 have been widespread for years and they haven't been severely hurt by it. PC in particular. If your argument were valid I would expect developers to have abandoned the PC 10 years ago.

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I call bullshit on you.

If it's Anonymous hackers bringing down the PSN as a protest, they won't have stolen your CC details.

If it's any old cybercrooks stealing CC details, they aren't doing it because of the retraction of OtherOS.

It's bullshit for you to pretend that one group of people would have both those motives.

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Alert

re: Cue the whining

Yes, Linux removal was a small thing, but can you honestly not see the precedent they're setting? That's what the major fuss is about (or where my annoyance is anyway). Just because you don't see it as a feature you mind losing, doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

Although less likely, Sony could decide that BD playback isn't worth the hassle and remove it from the firmware. But that's OK because not everyone uses it for that and you can still play games...

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Troll

with apologies to Pastor Martin Niemöller...

First they removed PS2 compatibility,

and I didn't speak out because I didn't use any PS2 software.

Then they removed the 'OtherOS',

and I didn't speak out because I only really played with it.

Then they released 'motion controller only' games,

and I didn't speak out because I can do without them.

Then they came for my credit card details...

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FAIL

nonsense.

It's all about piracy. Even the hackers admit it.

http://psgroove.com/content.php?1006-Mathieu-Explains-3.60-Exploit-Will-Lead-to-Application-Keys-and-Eventually-3.60-CFW&s=3bf83cbf1e94084f02caaef7f93dd01a

"The function that copies the SCE header from the shared LS to the isolated Local Store doesn’t check the header’s size.

[So] you craft a self with a HUGE header so [that] it overwrites ldr code as it gets copied to the isolated LS and you wait [for] the loader to jump to it.

[Then] you can get lv0 decrypted, once you get lv0 decrypted, you get appldr, once you get appldr, you get 3.60 application keys, [and] once you get that, you [get] warez."

Warez = Piracy.....

Stop hiding under the slightly less illegal homebrew rock.

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WTF?

negative negative negative whine whine.

You missed the fact that:

they added HDMI and 3DTV and games updates.

they added BBC iPlayer and countless other 3rd party software.

and they removed region constriction on all their games.

And also, if you really wanted PS2 compatibility, go by an earlier version that had it.

OtherOS has always been experimental a little bit shite and RE motion controller only games, what's wrong with that? Best tool for the job IMO. You can't really force it on normal controllers when it affects gameplay mechanics, plus it's actually the choice of the games developers to do so.

and those who're going on about 'precedence' of removing support of certain features from firmware, from the point of view of a GAMER. Since the linux exploit on PS3 can lead to 'homebrew' or more likely - pirates and other deeper system hacks. I support the idea because it means less of a chance that widespread hacking in things like Online Play will occur. (anyone remember playing on Dreamcast? online) As such I believe they have very good justification to remove it because the PS3 is primarily a console.

If one day Sony does remove a widely used and loved feature for 'insufficient' reasoning, then they'll most likely succumb to public pressure to reinstate it, but as things stands now. The only whiners out there are potential pirates and the few geeks who've ran Linux on their PS3 with SETI@home. But let's not forget those few geeks who ACTUALLY brought a couple hundred PS3 to run such distributed computing wouldn't really want or need to upgrade their firmware ANYWAY, so really the ones who're affected are the geeks who wanna boost how many credits they churn out in their own garage while still being able to play a bit of games every now and then, plus all the pirate wannabes.

I can only thank Sony for putting the PS3 back on the 'right' track of being a decent games console and shame to these teenage wannabe distruputive, wanna get attention "hackers". I say it's all because we wrap our kids in too much bubble these days.

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Well said!

Way back when I owned a PSP back around 2006/7, it was piracy plain and simple!

I wanted a PSP to play Megadrive games, the homebrew app but mostly it was so I could torrent free games! When I told others I could hack PSPs they wanted to do the same thing, play ripped off games! I hakced up 17 PSPs over the course of 6 months for friends and family and out of those at least 15 wanted to rent or download games for free.

I sold my old last PSP back in 2008 and binned all the games. I decided to stop ripping off games as my kids were getting older and my wife asked me to set a good example to my kids so I "saw the light" and changed my ways. I have hacked my Wii but only and purely for the purpose of loading the store bought games onto a USB HD so the kids don't screw up the £40 a pop game disks.

My kids have iPod Touches and every game they play is bought from the app store and paid for twice over sometimes to ensure it's fully legit and they pay for some of the games they want themselves so they understand you do not rip stuff off, it must be paid for.

Don't kid yourself it's hackers playing homebrew and that's all, that's utter bollocks and you know it! I know 3 people who have hacked their PS3 consoles and it's purely so they rip of games and they openly admit that without any guilt. ALl this bollocks about faster and fatter net pipes ( so we can download Linux distros", absolutely horse-crap!! It's so people can torrent movies, TV shows, games and music, you know it , I know it ( I have even done it in the past, a lot! ) and the media corps know it.

People are greedy, if they can get it for nothing they will. It's plain and simple, stop with the BS! No I am not perfect I've ripped off stuff for the sake of it knowing it was wrong, trying to justify it, but in the end I was stealing. I still occasionally knock off the odd TV show, but never movies. music or games anymore, it's copyright theft. Last thing my kids need to see is me being hauled off to court to pay a fine for knocking off stuff I can certainly afford to pay for.

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Linux was deliberately crippled on the PS3.

The PS3 initially was shipped with full access to its RSX. This was, later, crippled by Sony. Linux developers being Linux developers, nobody really noticed because not one developer could be bothered to get up off their arse and write an RSX driver. By the time they thought of doing so, Sony had blocked off access to the hardware. Even now, I do not see official RSX support in Yellow Dog Linux.

If Sony had not played bastard, I do not doubt the PS3 could have been a nice little Linux workstation. And don't tell me Linux won't run in 256MB - I was running Red Hat 6 with 256MB (and no swap) back in 2000, and it ran nicely. Just cut out the bloat and you'll find 256MB is plenty.

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AC @9:11

"ALl this bollocks about faster and fatter net pipes ( so we can download Linux distros", absolutely horse-crap!! It's so people can torrent movies, TV shows, games and music, you know it , I know it ( I have even done it in the past, a lot! ) and the media corps know it."

You've obviously never downloaded EQ2 at over 9 GB. You've also never waited on patch downloads when all you really want to do is spend what time you have available playing instead. You probably haven't done much Netflix streaming either.

Time wise it is often faster to drive to the store, buy the game, come home and install it then it is to download it. But since these are not valid complaints in your world I guess I shouldn't be worried about it.

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FAIL

Missing the point.

Those of us who are running Linux on the PS3 didn't really care for the graphical interface at all. The real power in the PS3 is the CellBE processor, which has 8 SPEs for parallel calculations. Mostly useful for scientific purposes. For these things, the CellBE is much much faster than the shitty x86 processors we have in PCs.

I AM miffed by Sony's decision ... I can't buy games released after April 1, 2010 so I've been deprived of a lot of games. I can't update my firmware because I'll lose OtherOS. I can't buy a new PS3 and transfer all my data 'cause I will lose my trophies. I've been royally screwed, just because I happen to be a gamer *and* a Linux user.

The fail0verflow guys had to crack the low level bootloaders just to get Linux to run on the PS3. Of course, this means that they opened up everything; and while they didn't get the apploader keys themselves, they did open up the door so that other people (homebrewers and pirates) could do it. It would not have happened if Sony hadn't killed OtherOS!

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Stop

Slight correction...

Sony did not remove region restrictions on all their games. PS3 games are region free and have been since launch, it is not the result of a firmware update. PS1 and, if you have a compatible console, PS2 games remain region locked when played on PS3.

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Bottom line

I can't get what I paid for, I can't play games, I can't watch Netflix. It's Sonny's fault after all for letting this happen, and for not fixing it. They must have seen it coming for whatever reason, be it some evil hackers, or gangsters. But it was visible to everyone using the PS3 online that Sony invests jack sh** into it. They wanted to have it cheaply yet they knew they play with fire. Now please fix it ASAP before my XBox gets out of the closet again, and build a F**** team for online part of it, with regular and serious updates.

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FAIL

I wouldn't bother with the Xbox

It's a has-been console, no worthwhile exclusives anymore (Gears3 looks set to underwhelm).

It's network uptime is nothing to shout about, currently at a record 15 days downtime (3x more than PSn currently).

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/03/xbox-live-outage-day-13-still-up-and-down-still-preventing-fu/

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Grenade

@mraak In a way you're right

You're not getting the service you paid for, but it's not Sony's fault. It's a bunch of whining wannabe pirates, who need to call the waaaambulance because their halfbaked excuses are getting tediously deafening. If you genuinely want to do something different and groundbreaking, then I honestly admire that.

Sony didn't make anyone install the update that forced the choice between OtherOS and PSN. But letting both happen at once WOULD have led to my gaming experience getting wrecked for the reasons in my post above, and it had to happen for them to preserve the primary use of the console for the vast, vast majority of users.

And now a bunch of pathetic losers have potentially got hold of my credit card details because they can't cope with that fact. And that really pisses me off.

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FAIL

Beggers can't be choosers

Yeah, they didn't MAKE me choose OtherOS and PSN (I never cared for the online gaming aspect when PC does it much better, depending on the game), they made me choose between OtherOS and the latest games, updated Blu-Ray firmware and syncing my PSP. A forced choice isn't a choice at all, don't be retarded.

If they got my credit card details, not my loss as they're old, I didn't update them for Sony's bait and switch on the hacker community, which stung them back for crappy security on their console. Makes you wonder why you went so far to keep trusting them with your finances too...

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Stop

@mraak

"I can't get what I paid for"

Really? You pay for the PSN? Funny, I thought it was free... You really do get what you pay for. While its a slight inconvenience for me, I've carried on playing my games in single player mode.

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Wrong

"You're not getting the service you paid for, but it's not Sony's fault."

Yes it is. They could have fixed the security hole and put the 'old' PSN back up while they were rebuilding a new one instead of taking the whole thing down.

"It's a bunch of whining wannabe pirates, who need to call the waaaambulance because their halfbaked excuses are getting tediously deafening."

Not all (or even most) homebrewers are pirates. The idiotic argument that that's the only reason anyone would want homebrew on a console is what is getting tediously deafening.

"If you genuinely want to do something different and groundbreaking, then I honestly admire that.

Sony didn't make anyone install the update that forced the choice between OtherOS and PSN. But letting both happen at once WOULD have led to my gaming experience getting wrecked for the reasons in my post above, and it had to happen for them to preserve the primary use of the console for the vast, vast majority of users."

Bullshit. Geohotz's original hack only allowed Linux to fully utilize the hardware. It had no affect in the game mode whatsoever. It ONLY affected Linux and didn't pose a piracy threat. As for saying that they didn't force users to take that update, that's like saying the IRS doesn't force you to pay taxes because you can choose to go to jail instead. There's a term for that kind of choice, but it's been a long time since I took philosophy.

"And now a bunch of pathetic losers have potentially got hold of my credit card details because they can't cope with that fact. And that really pisses me of"

Frankly I never trusted PSN with my credit card details to begin with, however I will say this: If this attack is meant to be punitive against Sony then they likely aren't interested in credit card details. If they were after the credit card details then this attack would have happened regardless of what Sony's been doing to homebrewers.

Oh, and for the record, my PS3 isn't jailbroken. I just get sick and tired of Sony pretending that consumer rights don't exist in the face of the phantom threat of piracy. Seriously, how many publishers have quit making PC games because they can't make a prophet or because of cheats in online play?

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@Anon fanboi

Actually Gears3 is looking superb, I've been playing the beta all week. It plays more like the first one (that's a good thing) and dedicated servers remove the old host advantange frustrations.

XBL did go down for a while in 2008, that was due to a huge influx of new users over Xmas, not getting caught out by 1337 h@x0rZ. MS gave away a free game to make up for it, most users didn't need to call the waaaaambulance.

But hey, lets not let facts get in the way of a good rant.

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Joke

@sisk

"Seriously, how many publishers have quit making PC games because they can't make a prophet?"

Well, John Carmack and Peter Molyneux notwithstanding, I'm not aware of any software company that has played host to the second coming...

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Grenade

duh

@Annihilator

Re;"I can't get what I paid for"

I can't use the PS3 to get to the lovefilm service which I paid for. Happy now?

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FAIL

@AceRimmer

"I can't use the PS3 to get to the lovefilm service which I paid for. Happy now?"

So complain to Lovefilm then.

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Joke

Arguing over Xbox v. PS3 is like arguing over Mac v. Linux

Even if you win, you're still not better than PC.

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Happy

"my gaming experience getting wrecked"

Shit son, maybe you should ask if there's space left in that waaaambulance for you.

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Stop

i wouldnt bother with you....

Firstly, the article you linked says 13 days downtime......not 15.

Secondly, its an article from more than 3 years ago

Thirdly, sod it..... i'm bored of you fanbois....just go back down to your mums basement and let us normal people play some games!

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If you think...

...I didn't pay for PSN access when I bought the console you're an idiot. Try playing COD on the PSN without a Playstation or the necessary disc, then ask yourself if the PSN is free. Nothing is free anyway - I'm still amazed the ASA allow usage of the word.

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FAIL

cancelled lovefilm

Just cancelled it. Couldn't access LoveFilm on PS3 over 4 day bank holiday, and the online selection is shite, and it doesn't stream to my iPad anyway.

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Poor baby

"And now a bunch of pathetic losers have potentially got hold of my credit card details because they can't cope with that fact. And that really pisses me off."

Sounds like you need your own waaaambulance, poor baby.

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g e
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Not all (or even most) homebrewers are pirates.

ABSOLUTELY TRUE

But you've utterly forgotten that there's a fuckload more pirates than homebrewers you useless numpty.

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Headmaster

Before you call names, perhaps you should re-read your post

Assertion: Not all (or even most) homebrewers are pirates.

Your response: ABSOLUTELY TRUE

So you agree that not all (**or even most**) homebrewers are pirates.

If most homebrewers are NOT pirates (an assertion you LOUDLY agreed with), then there is no way in hell that there can be a fuckload more (or any amount more) pirates than homebrewers, because most (that is more than half, for the comprehensionally challenged) homebrewers are not pirates.

Did I go too fast for you?

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Anonymous Coward

Those Fuckers

Based on my guess about who's doing what with their PS3s and their motives, I know who is behind this and that they're all losers who want to pirate PS3 games and ruin my games by cheating. Also there is a risk that I will have my credit card details stolen when prior to these crybabies being butthurt there was no such risk. That fraud risk was created by the tears of cheating pirating smelly people. They are destroying the games industry just like they did in the 90s. That will make it double-dead! (It's a simple principle, similar to killing zombies or skeletons.)

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FAIL

Games industry was destroyed in the 90s?

Funny, nobody told me. I was too busy having fun with the PC, SNES, Megadrive, Mega CD, Saturn, original Playstation.. what, all those gaming platforms were there for a destroyed industry?

Oh hang on, is this like how home taping killed music, and how home videos killed movies?

Sony pissed off a sleeping giant, is what happened. That they can't secure their systems from jack shit when companies like PayPal seem to either manage it or compensate when they can't, is not the fault of "crybaby" "pirates".

Still, at least it should put to bed the myth that consoles and other locked down platforms are somehow cheat-proof. Has anybody ever looked at the top 5 ot 10 or so people in the world on Cover Orange? A friend of mine has gotten to well within the top 20 through his (and my) own hard work, but there's no way in hell that a game that only allows a maximum score of 1,000 per level has people who've scored around 999 on EACH ONE. Seriously, are those scores real or rubber?

(this isn't even mentioning the cheats who were removed a little while ago, with scores in the millions..)

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Pot, Kettle....black

"Also there is a risk that I will have my credit card details stolen when prior to these crybabies being butthurt"

You know what you risk giving your credit card info to any company. Its your fault for putting your information into the system. Besides, no one has confirmed any CC theft, so stop your butthurt crying, baby.

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Anonymous Coward

Me again, Fuckers.

"Funny, nobody told me. I was too busy having fun with the PC, SNES, Megadrive, Mega CD, Saturn, original Playstation.. what, all those gaming platforms were there for a destroyed industry?"

None of those existed.

"Oh hang on, is this like how home taping killed music, and how home videos killed movies?"

Yes. Have you seen a decent film lately? Thought not.

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Troll

none of those existed?

Somehow I don't think you were around in the 90s. Could be the lack of knowledge, or perhaps the attitude. "Fuckers" indeed!

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Alien

Too bad

it would make a lovely distributed GPU passcracker appliance.

The sensors in iPhones also make up a seismic sensor network, like HP printers do.

Have a great game day all.

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FAIL

They should get fired!

You don't see Apple or Microsoft get in the mess Sony loves to get itself in. They play a smarter game and usually let things be if they know their counter-action against creative tinkerers will destroy their company's reputation. But not Sony, the idiots there dragged this once admired company into the the cesspool they are in.

Now the Sony idiots don't even know if private information have been stolen. What kind of system do they really have? Why should we ever trust them again with their PSN network?

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Title

Possibly the worst possible timing for this outage.

Ignoring the four day weekend, Thursday was supposed to be the grand launch of Steamworks on PS3 - Free PC Download of Portal 2 for anyone who bought the PS3 version, and cross platform cloud saves and co-op play.

First thing I've really wanted to Use PSN for since I finished with LittleBigPlanet.

Still, not all bad - Finished off Portal 2's Single player mode, and found Sega were having a half price sale over on xbox live.

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Stop

Responsibility?

If some group like Anonymous was behind the attacks you'd think they'd be the first to claim responsibility.

People just out to steal data are going to keep quiet.

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Anonymous Coward

If you...

buy sony you get what you deserve.

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"you get what you deserve."

yeah, a shafting with pencil shavings for lube.

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Grenade

Idiots

I'd love to meet the people who have hacked into PSN, and personally castrate them all. Do they think that by alienating the general public who want to use their PS3 to actually play LEGAL games, that they are going to get our support?

And please dont give me the "all this started because Sony removed Linux" crap. Its got nothing to do with that. When the PS3 was hacked what happened? Did we see thousands of people installing their own homebrew games or marvelling over the fact they could run Linux again? No, we saw thousands of people copying games to their HDD, and nearly every online game was full of people cheating making them unplayable.

If Holt wanted to prove the PS3 could be hacked just to show off how clever the little tosser is then fair enough, do it, announce it, but keep the key to yourself. Oh and Holt.... if my bank card details have been stolen, and money goes missing, I will be PERSONALLY coming to kick your ass.

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Oh do shut up

Your loud mouth posturing online is completely unimpressive. Hackers exist. Deal with it. Legit players exist, deal with it. Get a life you clearly don't have. They are VIDEOGAMES people, lol. But oh no, you all are so uber-serious. Pathetic.

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Pathetic

Yes sir, indeed you are and your even louder loud mouth posturing online is even more unimpressive lol.

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FAIL

If you're gonna kick someone's ass...

At least get their name right... Who is this Holt you are referring to?

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Paris Hilton

not wanting to point out the blindingly obvious

But you bought into the insecurity of the Sony network when you made your purchasing choice.

The fact it can get taken down for six days suggests that Sony have no form of disaster recovery in place and that whatever the mystery attackers have done is catastrophic enough to take it down very hard.

Rather than focus on why they did it, your ire would be better directed at Sony for having a network so fundamentally shit that it can get taken down this easily.

You might also want to consider one of the rocket scientists at Sony tweated the key themselves!

I am sure George HOTZ is quaking in his boots at the thought that some guy called Gary who cant play with his games console is going to "kick his ass", make sure you only travel at night with a good supply of Pizza, I suspect, like most gamers, if you venture out into daylight you will combust!

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Generalisation??

Just because I have a PS3 does that mean I never go out? Lets get something straight here, I havent turned on my PS3 for over 2 weeks, I only play it on the odd occasion, and most times I am out with friends. However, when I do turn it on, I expect to be able to use it for what I purchased it for, i.e. watching Blu Ray or playing games, in particular a bit of COD for an hour or so on the odd occasion.

I dont expect some little twats to come along and steal all my details, and prevent me, and thousands of others of enjoying a bit of online play now and then just because they cant run Linux on their PS3.

So stop categorising all PS3 owners as people who never go out. I think you will find its XBOX 360 owners who are the spotty faced under 15 year olds, whereas the PS3 owners are the more mature play once in a while brigade. (PS. Did you spot the generalisation there?)

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Paris Hilton

Gary you doth protest too much

This was your first mistake:

"I dont expect some little twats to come along and steal all my details, "

Really, what era of infosec are you living in? I personally always look at the "twat risk" before popping my card details and personal info into anything.

The bottom line is you get what you pay for, and it appears that Sony cant keep your data secure, probably becuase you dont have to pay directly for the PSN. It was your choice to go with them.

Oh, and you forgot to mention having a girlfriend as well as actually going out in your defence, fatel error on your part, proper gamers claim to have relationships with the opposite sex as well as seeing daylight!

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Word on the street is...

There's been some suggestion that rather than being a response to any sort of direct attack, Sony have brought down PSN due to the release of a custom PS3 firmware called Rebug, which gives you what is essentially the development firmware. Amongst other things this gives you the option to perform a "quick sign up" to PSN, bypassing a CC check, and bypassing the payment steps for grabbing any content off it. There's various videos of it in action on YT.

Rumour is they've brought down PSN to bork things for the rebug users.

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