Art imitating life
So... fraud, money laundering, illegal gambling...
Bit like Vegas on a bad day then?
The founders of three of the internet's largest gambling sites have been indicted and charged with bank fraud, money laundering and illegal gambling offenses by US authorities. Eleven individuals have been charged in total by the US Department of Justice with running operations that violated the Unlawful Internet Gambling …
So... fraud, money laundering, illegal gambling...
Bit like Vegas on a bad day then?
Good God. I'm almost never above making an obvious comment about the United States and how it is either this (pre-fascist corporatocracy) or that (a wholly corrupt state plagued by nepot- and crony-ism) but this is just too easy. I mean, really, this is just so unapologetically obvious that I'm not even sure it is worth commenting on. Oh, but I will anyway.
A decidedly anti-poker and pro-horse racing online gambling ban that violates international trade agreements was tacked on to a port security act by a bunch of religious nutjobs with a vested interest in horse racing in their own states. Law is then protected by powerful Democratic Senator who is guaranteed to be in the Vegas casinos' pockets and enforced by an administration that completely ignored banks acting as money launderers for drug cartels. Yeah, OK, that about sums it up, I'd say.
They don't even bother hiding their true allegiances anymore, now do they?
So, the sites are still active, it's just the DNS? If so, the sites are still there... right?
Gotta love the american government. Why don't they just make it illegal for any of their 'free' citizens to buy foreign products or spend any money abroad while they're at it. Can't have any of those dollars going overseas can we? Oh sorry I forgot, this law was brought in to protect the us citizens wasn;t it?
"Why don't they just make it illegal for any of their 'free' citizens to buy foreign products or spend any money abroad while they're at it."
Please please please dont give them any ideas.....
Given that most of US manufacturing appears to happen in China. It'd be worth it to never see another iPhone.
This poisonous piece of legislation was, if I remember correctly, a rider added to some piece of legislation to do with harbours. The puritanical god-botherers knew they had no chance of slipping it through on its own merit, even with WB backing it in god's name. Now they want to extend their grasp to the rest of the world, imposing their ridiculous law on every country.
Get working Obama, this needs taking down.
You also forget the most powerful supporter of this bill, Harry Reid, is one of the people Obama relies on to get things through the Senate. He wouldn't challenge Reid on this even if he wasn't busy playing golf somewhere.
its Ironic the the country with the largest casino's in the world in Las Vegas make such a fuss about online gambling.
In the US, wanna buy a gun? well sure thats ok
Wanna buy hardcore porn? well go ahead, we wouldn't want to infringe on your free speech.
Wanna have a bet on a sports game or play online poker? GET DOWN ON THE FLOOR WITH YOUR HANDS BEHIND YOUR HEAD!!! (unless your in Vegas or on Native American grounds)
They only have a problem with online gambling when they aren't getting a slice of the action i.e. foreign companies.
WTF is the point of being based in IoM, Ireland or Costa Rica, and thereby having a really strong defense that you're doing business solely in those countries and the US has no right to apply its laws extraterritorially, and then going and flushing it all away by not only doing your banking transactions in the US at a US bank, but also abandoning all pretence at innocence with blatant and easily-detected laundering measures which bring you under the jurisdiction of international law and treaties when the anti-gambling law itself is US-only?
... they grassed up the person responsible (some ozzie) for setting up the system for them (because he scammed a bit extra off their profits), and then informed the FBI when he'd be in the US. Now he in turn has handed them all over, with all the details and evidence of how it was done.
I have to agree, I suspect there will be the usual over the top anti-US comments here, but really the online gabling companies were oeprating financially in the US and they were effectively laundering money there, what did they expect?
NB: I personally hate gambling, I realise I'm in the minority, but the US just can't ignore international law when it suits it.
Now _all_ illegal internet gambling has been solved. You can all give yourselves:
1. a pat on the back
2. pay rise
Businesses should have absolutely nothing to do with then, and have no sites there.
As a side note Absolute Poker were caught cheating a few years back so I am glad they have been fucked.
"As a side note Absolute Poker were caught cheating a few years back so I am glad they have been fucked."
I still wonder how anyone trusts online poker at all. "You lose again: your opponent had a better hand!" Is any kind of independent auditing done at all, or do all the players have the attitude that "the computer they're using must be completely honest and really shuffle and deal the cards completely fairly"?
Personally, I'll be happy to not have wall-to-wall slow-motion "poker players are the new Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman" bullshit advert breaks on television if all these sites stay down, US corruption and general trade agreement violations notwithstanding.
"...The USA are a bunch of wankers..."
Seriously, that's totally unacceptable - replace "USA" with any other group and see if it still sounds so good.
"The onanists are a bunch of wankers"
Scientologists are a bunch of wankers.
Still reads ok to me - do try and calm down dear......
I am visiting the US, connect to my machine in the UK via RDC, deposit funds and bet using the host machine in the UK.
Does this break US law?
You're in the US, using the internet to communicate instructions to perform an act that would be illegal if done in the US (assuming that you're not in Vegas).
Have access to people's bank account details so they can verify you're old enough to gamble?
But the question is have they committed fraud *against* their users or simply fallen foul of the merkins nonsensical attitudes to gambling?
In Europe the off course or off track gambling industry is a *legal* business turning over billions in whatever currency you choose to work in. Entry to it is much like joining any large scale retail business.
In America it's a branch of organized crime.
So are these *real* crimes or just ones due to US schizophrenia on the subject?
I'd like a "Question mark" icon as I'm puzzled.
Paris is there, always ready to puzzle.
I wonder, other than a case of "look at how big and mighty *we* are", why it is that the sites being taken down are replaced with these ridiculous flashy banners? Is it supposed to scare people? Violate accessiblity guidelines? Smear an individual's good name before or regardless whether they are proven guilty in a court of law?
There are some very interesting (and by interesting, I mean "troubling") things going on here.
"So... fraud, money laundering, illegal gambling...
Bit like Vegas then?"
"So... fraud, money laundering, illegal gambling...
Bit like the *banks* then?"
Oh but the law won't fix the banks. Too many corrupt back handers (envelopes filled with notes, holidays etc...) to stop the people in power really taking action against the real people in power, like the banks. Ironically probably these same kind of (envelopes filled with notes) back handers are behind why the US government allows some of the biggest gambling sites in the world, yet they don't want US people to be free to gamble online. Can't have non-US companies earning money.
Which means so much for the two faced hypocrisy of the US Government and how they have so often talked of the need for global free trade, (in situations where they win from the free trade) which means situations where their US companies profit from non-US people. But as soon as its the other way around, they don't like it, when it means US money could be going to non-US companies. They do this a lot with gambling, so have to wonder how many corrupt officials in the US government are on the side of the US gambling companies?
Also so much for freedom of choice for the American people. So much for the "Land of the Free", because they are proving once again its a lie. Being told what choices you are allowed to make isn't freedom, because your master has already chosen what they don't want you to do. When I earn money, I like to be free to choose how I spend my money and its my choice, no one else's choice, to be forced onto me. So much for freedom, because they show even freedom is another US government lie.
It shows the American people are just puppets to the wishes of the rich and powerful in America, as are the US government. Just more puppets & pawns for the rich and powerful to exploit for their gain and we are next as they seek to extend their control over the Internet and you better not even think of running a non-US company that doesn't do what the US government wants, because then they show they are willing to throw your business offline. So much for freedom from the land of the free.
ummmm, not just the Americans.........
"Also so much for freedom of choice for the American people. So much for the "Land of the Free", because they are proving once again its a lie. Being told what choices you are allowed to make isn't freedom, because your master has already chosen what they don't want you to do."
As Bill Hicks said: " You are free to do what we tell you... Go back to bed America..."
I think you probably broke the law by saying you were going to America!
Keep in mind that these overseas operators are being charged with a) bribing at least one bank officer to illegally process payments and cover up their activities, b) used three other individuals to illegally process payments through their own bank accounts and lie to banking officials about the nature of their cash flow.
Yes, it's absolutely stupid that the US has a screwed-up perspective on online gambling, and yes it was absolutely stupid how those laws were put into effect. It should be turned around. Whether or not you think these laws are right or wrong, it is absolutely clear that bribing bank officials and lying to bank officials is not only illegal, but wrong.
Aside from that, a small change in domain names and moving your registrations to entities outside of the United States will fix this issue.
"that bribing bank officials and lying to bank officials is not only illegal, but wrong"
Absolutely - U.S. banks are supposed to be bribing U.S. politicians, foreigners shouldn't get involved.
Congratulations, you have taken down a website that was outside the US flexing your muscle where you don't really have any right.
So you can shut down gambling sites but you still claim that you cant find and prosecute people distributing child porn?
The only reason you want these sites shut down is because you are not getting your share. poor government. Stop having wars with everyone and you may have a little more money and not have to worry about suing people trying to make their own living.
It isn't that the federal government isn't getting their share, because they could if those chose to. Part of the issue is that the government doesn't want any share, nor does it want any of its citizens to have any share, either.
...it would have shut the casinos or poker rooms in Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Nevada, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Dakota and West Virginia, not to mention those on Native American reserves.
But of course, when US citizens gamble at offshore sites, that's cash flowing out of the US economy. Expect actions against PartyPoker, 888.com and pkr.com in due course, as soon as a suitable case can be worked up.
It seems they switched the main sites to www.fulltilpoker.co.uk and www.pokerstars.eu, the software also has been updated to block deposits from US players temporarily.
Let me get this straight... It is legal for a US citizen to go to an indian reservation, Las Vegas or similar and gamble as much as he/she likes, but it is illegal to log on to an online casino and do the same thing?
The only thing that makes sense is that lawgivers don't make enough money from the online version and thus to protect their interests got it banned.
It is clearly not about gambling addiction and similar because if it was the law would require EVERYBODY taking money from US citizens, online or IRL, to pay a percentage to organizations helping people that got addicted to gambling. We have something similar here in Denmark. But no. It's about preventing people living far from the physical casinos from gambling.
Oh, and they only targeted poker sites, which is kind of stupid, as it clearly is a game of skill, as opposed to roulette and similar which are much more chance-related. I mean, if poker was a game of chance you should be able to walk up to a poker table and be lucky enough to win your first hand ever against a table full of seasoned poker players. But it never happens because you can't. Chance is a factor but a small one. It only sets the scene but what you do from there is pure skill.
"The only thing that makes sense is that lawgivers don't make enough money from the online version and thus to protect their interests got it banned."
I think you'll find that the US Gaming laws not only pre-date the Internet, but pretty much pre-date the invention of the telephone. Many were brought in as the telegraph proliferated, hence WIRE FRAUD.
Bribing banks to process funds illegally is wrong. Nobody can deny that. Yes, the US laws are crazy, and no, they shouldn't extend beyond US soil. But money laundering is illegal in most countries and the gambling sites knew the risk they were taking.
(I use Pokerstars in the UK. I'm so glad we have some freedoms here)
I mean Ireland and Jersey? aren't the FBI going a bit too far?
> According to New York's US Attorney's Office, the companies operated in contravention of the 2006 act on unlawful gaming ..
I guess that's put paid to the delusion that we are an independent nation ..
you can still a of 1055 GMT get to the sites from outside the USA.
So you gambling addicted terminal weasels, learn to Gargle "local IP address portal" to do it to your hearts' desire.
Apparently the feds haven't heard of PNG? Or at least JPEG at a bit less compression? The artifacting on the text in that takedown notice aught to be a crime.
Didn't the WTC find against the US-of-A when they blocked some Antiguan gambling sites?
Any way, if bank fraud etc is to be investigated I hope the Yanks don't expect help from the imbeciles at HRMC or the FSA. Settle for fractions of a penny in the pound those idiots will.
When a US citizen in the US uses a US bank to do business in the US with a company doing business with US citizens within the US using a US bank to transfer funds, how the hell could any of you think that's outside US jurisdiction?
The FBI isn't saying they'll come shut down overseas poker sites for what they do overseas. They also are find with non-gambling sites in the US that really are only play money (even Yahoo has this).
What they don't want is online sites to pop up, go away, cheat people, and launder money with none of the regulations and inspections of the state-licensed casinos. I think they should reconsider licensing, regulating, and inspecting online casinos myself, but these sites that are trying to run outside the law are illegal for a reason.
"What they don't want is online sites to pop up, go away, cheat people, and launder money with none of the regulations and inspections of the state-licensed casinos. "
And of course they don't trust any other countries to license and regulate such activities either. Other countries that they're more than willing to sell nuclear weapons to. Like the UK?
... like Full Tilt Poker and PokerStars? Those sites have both been in operation for better than five years if memory serves. Curse these shady fly-by-night operations.
In that case, the feds should have blocked access to pokerstars.com within the US, not taken over the domain.
FYI, .com isn't purely for america
This is only because of the casino lobby.
We have casinos that pay no taxes; others who run off tax breaks; and they have powerful lobbys.
Just think how much more money you'd have if didn't have to pay taxes.
Corporate casino america and the mobsters in government have something in common.
Neither like competition.
I'm watching "High Stakes Poker" on TV. The irony!
Several others have written about the hypocrisy of ONLINE gambling.
As has been reported several sites have perpertrated fraud on its players. Not sure of the names but one or two were up in Canada (if memory serves me).
i generally do not gamble so I can't have an independent opinion. The only time I gamble is if the lotto jack ot goes above $100 Million (US). That being siad I sure would not trust any only web site at least with Vegas you are reasonably assured you are gambling with a unrigged system.
unrigged? If you believe that one, I have a bridge for sale... every game is rigged, normally it's built into the rules.
There are exactly two bets in all of vegas that dont have a house advantage:
Pass/Don't Pass in craps generally are paid out inline with the actual odds (assuming fair dice).
The only other reasonable bet is if you're counting in Blackjack which, while (contrary to popular belief) is perfectly legal (when done without any form of aid), will lead to you being asked to kindly take your winnings and depart.
Betting the banker in baccarat has a vary small advantage to the house (less then 2%), assuming the commission is low.