Feeds

back to article Patent row gets Playstation 3s banned from Europe

The long-running patent dispute between LG and Sony over Blu-Ray technology just got serious - a European court has approved a ten day ban on imports of Playstation 3s into Europe. A court ruling in the Hague last week means Sony's game console and its Bravia TVs could disappear from the High Street in the next few weeks. …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.

Page:

Bronze badge
Go

Kharma's a beast...

Serves Sony right for their draconian approach to dealing with jailbreakers.

Go, go, go LG!

32
7

This post has been deleted by a moderator

Anonymous Coward

Re: I think this sums it up:

They appear to hang around in groups on the gaming forums and gang up on anyone who criticises Sony.

They constantly brow beat these people until they give up and move on, which is usually quite quickly as most people don't want to get involved in flame wars, especially against multiple opponents at the same time.

It's nothing more than bullying opposing views into silence, I guess they learned that from Sony.

4
0
Bronze badge
Flame

RE: Karma is a b---h

I must heartily agree.

I remember the hassle of getting that dammed rootkit out of my Windoze machine due to a f---ed up Alicia Keys CD.

Slimy, good for nothing bastards!!!!

0
0
Jobs Halo

As prophesied...

Blu-Ray can really be a "bag of hurt".

6
0
Silver badge
Alert

Perhaps Sony is reaping...

....what it has sown?

9
2
Thumb Up

karma

too bad, it won't last.

4
1
Anonymous Coward

Doing more harm than good

And all with many thanks to the what I consider to be dumbest patent system in the world; the US patent system. Where a majority of companies simply file the most impossible patents which easily get approved after which its the American way in its optimal state: "We'll sue!".

I think its a very bad trend to see that European courts now actually consider all this nonsense remotely liable. It used to got laughed out of court all the time.

4
3
FAIL

@And all with many thanks to ... the US patent system

This has nothing to do with the US patent system. US patents only give a right to exclude others from certain actions within the USA. They have no jurisdiction over actions taken outside the USA. The European courts will be ruling on patents issued by the patent offices of one or more European countries.

3
0
Silver badge
Heart

Don't worry, we believe you

"LG can either seek to extend the ban, or Sony could appeal the ruling, the Guardian reports. The Reg has also recently heard the story from our own sources"

We're 'borrowing' another news outlet's story, but we heard about it first, honest guv :-)

0
0
Flame

Haha!

Since Sony removed my Yellow Dog Linux installation from my PS3 (in their recent software update), I've been rather upset with them. This was compounded by them charging £6 for a software update to PlayTV - an update which scuppered the device and is awaiting a fix.

So it's quite satisfying to see them getting the sharp end of someone else's stick!

16
2
Stop

But...

No comment on the Play TV thing as I dont have it.

But, SONY gave you a choice as to whether you loose linux or not. If you want to keep Linux thats fine, its your console to do with as you want. However, what SONY did do was remove access to PSN which is a software service provided by SONY hence they can set (and change) the rules how/when they want.

All* these linux moaners I just dont understand, from what I have read the PS3 isnt the best Linux machine anyway without giving you access to the juicy bits underneath... the only reason I can see you would ever use this is to run massive calculations which then surely, you couldnt give a rats ass if you got on PSN or not?

Stop your moaning, save up a couple of hundred quid and go buy a basic box to run Linux on - it will do the job much better and its yours to do with as you want.

That is all.

* Last count stood at 27

5
36
Silver badge
Thumb Down

@Drunk

A company sells a "thing" that does A, B, C and D you pay £100 for that "thing".

At some juncture in the future, the company says "From now on you can do A, B and C; or A, B, and D. You have to choose between C and D".

That is not right.

Whether you care or not is not the issue. All that matters is that the company (Sony in this case) has unilaterally decided to knobble your device in one way or another. I will agree that people /could potentially/ use the Linux install to do some naughtiness, and if they do I won't complain when they are done for it.

But removing a feature just because it /could/ be used in that way is no excuse.

Imagine if companies did that for everything.

17
1
Silver badge

Troll-a-licious!

I still wonder why so many trolls await any PS3 news to bash on those miffed by OtherOS removal. Still insisting on the "get a PC" argument? Sad to see that even IT-savvy people can't understand the difference between PPC, x86 and the PPC-based CellBE arch.

IBM axed their CellBE server roadmap, those of us who want CellBE hardware just can't get it outside of the PS3. Some of us even play games as well!

PD: It's "lose", not "loose". ;)

8
3
Boffin

Not just PSN removal

But also Blu-ray removal. I 'had' to update my PS3 because new Blu-ray DVD's would not play on the PS3 unless the encryption keys were updated. Sony provided no method to do that without 'upgrading' the PS3 to reduced functionality. I'm guessing new games would probably demand 'updating' as well before they'd install.

So the choice Sony gave owners was either to keep a Linux box, with no PSN, new games or Blu-rays, or allow the update to remove the other OS functionality. But it could have been worse. If the patents are about Blu-ray, LG may have just asked for all PS3 players to be revoked until the case is settled.

(man in Blu-ray disc cos Blu-ray controls your viewing pleasure. See any recent Momentum release for more info. Sorry, you cannot skip the adverts we slap on your expensive movies)

11
0
Bronze badge
FAIL

Re: DrunkJunkie

Perhaps Sir you are missing the point, while on the face of it you are essentially correct in your assessment, you have also failed to take into account the assortment of current Games such as (but, not limited to), Gran Turismo 5 (3.50) Killzone 3 will probably needs v3.55.

Neither of these versions have the possibility to run Linux which ended back in 3.15.

So not only would you be giving up PSN ~and who need's that anyway?; you're also giving up the ability to play new Games on your PS3 as well.

1
0
Gold badge
Thumb Up

No quite

I buy a car with allow wheels. It is advertised as having allow wheels, and it is part of my buying decision (the trade description). What Sony has done is the equivalent of locking my garage after the sale and telling me that I can no longer use the car unless I agree to swap those wheels out for steel ones.

In principle, it is Sony who is the thief here, and if I could find the &%ç* receipt I'd document the functionality before I let the upgrade loose, and then file a formal complaint with the equivalent of Trading Standards where I live. I need the receipt because this is not going anywhere unless I can show damage, and that needs evidence of the original price (that's the way things work here - no proof, no case). I really think what Sony has done there is unacceptable - I don't hack the box (no time, too much bother and not interested) so I refuse to be treated like a criminal because someone somewhere used that feature to break it - a feature which is now no longer needed to break the box.

It has actually already had a direct impact - I deal with quite a few companies, and quite a number have imposed a ban on Sony kit since this affair. I work in an area where trust is everything, and a supplier who sees no problems with dropping a rootkit or retrospectively changing functionality is not acceptable. Simple: I vote with my wallet, and so do many others. You can try to justify this theft in whatever fashion you like, but it doesn't change the facts: a feature that was documented in the product manual has suddenly disappeared. It is irrelevant what purpose it served - I bought a set of features and one will go when I upgrade. Period.

Hence me applauding the import ban. I hope it bloody hurts big time.

2
0
Bronze badge
Flame

"computer-illiterate"

I hate to reply to you again in the same thread about a different thread..

Anyhow. You have called me computer illiterate (I'm incredibly hurt!!).

>Sad to see that even IT-savvy people can't understand the difference

> between PPC, x86 and the PPC-based CellBE arch.

It's really sad to see that people like yourself have irrational fetishes for processor architectures and start name calling if people don't agree with you.

I'll set down a challenge to you here..

On my desk I currently have these *weird* processor architectures;

NXP LPC2294 (ARM7TDMI)

Renesas H8 3069F (H8/300)

Renesas SuperH 2 7144 IIRC, 16bit external databus version..

Renesas SuperH 4 7151R

Xilinx Microblaze (Various configurations)

I've written my own startup code for each of these.. linker scripts etc.. the H8 does weird stuff like loading binaries into external DRAM via the debugger in flash ROM and then pushes marked sections of code into the internal SRAM for speed.. I know them pretty well.

My challenge to you is this; Show us one bit of code you have personally written for the Cell, preferably in assembly, that couldn't be replicated on at least one of those processors. All of those are < 266Mhz, so we won't take speed of the operation as a factor.. you just need to show us something that you have written for the Cell which is impossible to do on all of the above chips. They can all run Linux in some form so it doesn't matter if your code needs an OS.

If you can I will eat each of those dev boards.. Some of them aren't RoHS! But I really doubt you can.

0
2
Bronze badge
Flame

The difference..

>>those miffed by OtherOS removal.

Because they continually make out its a big thing and that it's the reason the "hackers got pissed and hacked the PS3", totally ignoring the fact that the USB exploit came from nowhere and opened the doors.. it would have happened if OtherOS was still in place, the reason it didn't happen for so long was that the USB exploit wasn't discovered.

>>Still insisting on the "get a PC" argument?

Any recent X86 box is going to be a ton more useful than a PS3 for a linux box.. even if the Cell was the fastest chip in the world and all the applications people use were suited to its highly parallel architecture it would still be no better than a standard PC because of its lack of RAM and in the original OtherOS's lack of access to the video hardware... there is a phd paper somewhere that details the Cell can't decode decent resolution H264 streams in software, a shitty Atom with ION can.

>>IT-savvy people can't understand the difference between

>>PPC

Dead outside of embedded and shops running expensive IBM kit. Expensive for the performance you get.

>>x86

Apparently an amazingly horrible architecture .. decided by people that don't know what a register is .. but incredibly cheap for the performance you get. Available from a number of suppliers. Well documented. Well supported. Can be coupled with GPUs. Number of cores per die/package doubling at a crazy rate. Machines are generally built against standards and can be upgraded/expanded to suite the intended application.

>>PPC-based CellBE arch.

Over hyped. Main proponents lack the ability to actually code anything that code take advantage of the Cells architecture but like to rattle on and on about it being the "next big thing" when the companies responsible for it have basically dropped it and are trying to distance themselves from it. Expensive. Limited suppliers.

>>IBM axed their CellBE server roadmap,

So.. it's dead. Get over it. Learn how to use CUDA or something..

>>who want CellBE hardware just can't get it outside of the PS3.

So.. what you're saying is that Sony should put lots of effort into keeping 3 of their 44 million PS3 owners happy because they have a fetish for hardware that has basically been abandoned?

I'm really interested to know what the amazing application you have that requires the Cell.. please do enlighten us.

0
4
Bronze badge
Flame

*I* have personally written code for CBE

Here's some code which, while not actually assembly, shows that you have to use assembly-like macros to get good use of the hardware (apologies for the length; I took as small a section as I could):

/* non-aligned read initialisation */

void

spu_narinit(char **mem, /* start location */

vec_uchar16 *selq, /* mask for selecting qw */

vec_uchar16 *selr, /* mask for selecting remainder */

int rem, /* "remaining" bytes */

vec_uchar16 *buf

)

{

unsigned int mask;

vec_uchar16 vmask;

/* check that mem pointer is aligned to 16 byte address */

if (((unsigned int)(*mem)) & 15) {

printf("Input memory address not aligned to 16 bytes\n");

exit (1);

}

/* load a full vector from memory */

*buf=*((vec_uchar16 *) (*mem));

(*mem)+=16;

/* since all bytes are aligned to begin with, the mask for selb

simply selects all bytes from the buffer */

*selq = (vec_uchar16) { 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15 };

/* calculate the equivalent shuffle index register for reading only

rem bytes */

*selr=*selq; /* same order as selq */

/* selr needs to be masked so that the first rem bytes have a high

bit of zero, and all other high bits of 1 */

mask=(1 << (15 - rem)) -1; /* eg, 3 -> 0001111111111111 */

vmask=spu_maskb(mask); /* fsmb: bits of mask -> bytes */

vmask=spu_and(vmask, 128); /* only interested in high bit */

*selr=spu_or(*selr,vmask); /* mask shuffle index register */

}

So, for all you people who shout that all the people who complain about Sony removing the OtherOS function don't even use the thing or should just get a PC and shut up about it: some of us /have/ learned to code on the thing and /have/ written non-trivial applications using it. And we are very legitimately pissed off that the amount of time and effort spent on both of those things has been wasted by Sony's handling of the whole OtherOS fiasco.

The Big Yin put it best above. We bought a machine that was supposed to do A, B, C and D and then they say that we can no longer do both C and D and we must choose one or the other. I actually bought two machines, one for family gaming and the other for my programming use. I have no choice but to keep linux on both of them and not upgrade to restore PSN functionality because if one of the machines fail I will no longer have the programming platform which I originally bought the machines for. The knock-on effect is that some games won't work to their full effect due to needing a PSN logon, and I also miss out on some updates that would fix graphical/sound/other bugs in the game system.

So you can basically fuck right off with your sycophantic Sony fanboi line. I *do* use the CBE, the applications I write are *not* portable to other systems, and I *do* feel betrayed and shafted by Sony for fucking up the system for me both as a programming platform and a gaming system.

6
0
Bronze badge
Flame

@woohoo

We have found the one person that actually does anything with the amazing Cell processor!

>>us /have/ learned to code on the thing and /have/ written non-trivial applications using it.

You have to wonder though.. why didn't you buy a dev kit from IBM? They did sell Cell blades etc.. if it meant so much to you why didn't you buy a dev kit? Oh, was it because they were priced outside of the price range of the common man? Did IBM not run a university scheme or anything to put Cell processors into the hands of people that could use them?

>>We bought a machine that was supposed to do A, B, C and D

I've never ever seen the PS3 being advertised as a Cell dev kit.

Eggs in one basket...

>>other for my programming use.

Again, never advertised as a dev kit. All sensible processor vendors will sell you dev kits.. You even get support. I have a board for an 8 bit MCU that cost more than a PS3.. it's a commercial development kit that comes with proper documentation etc. ;)

>>I have no choice but to keep linux on both of them

Or you could buy another PS3 for games?

>>programming platform which I originally bought the machines for.

You bought consumer hardware. It was never sold as a dev kit.

>>So you can basically fuck right off with your sycophantic Sony fanboi line.

Hah, yes.. because I disagree with you I'm a fanboi. I personally don't follow brands.. I buy want is available and fits what I'm looking for at time of purchase. I don't buy a games console and cry like a baby because the vendor doesn't want to support it as a dev ket.

>>I *do* use the CBE, the applications I write are *not* portable to other systems,

The code you have written isn't portable.. I can't see any reason you can't re-implement it on another platform that hasn't been dropped upstream and has no easy accessible development hardware? Sony have removed OtherOS boohoo.. but IBM don't want to make Cell chips any more either.. will you people start another load of drama when Sony stops shipping PS3's?

You can get FPGA's with PPC cores built in these days.. and I don't think the dev kits are terribly expensive. VHDL/Verilog are industry standards and you can use them across a number of vendors hardware. So you wouldn't be wasting your time learning something that is already dead.

>> I *do* feel betrayed and shafted by Sony for fucking up the system

It still runs OtherOS right? Sony have given you a choice.. Maybe Sony could have handled it better and gave a free PS3 with newer firmware to the <insert tiny amount of people here> that actually used "THE CELL!" opposed to "Hey, it runs Linux! why can't I play windows games on this.." but they didn't and they don't have to. OtherOS was an unsupported bonus feature that is gone. Get over it.

0
1
Anonymous Coward

There will be hurt

There will be some hurt coming from this. I could imagine annoyed PS3 fans wanting a console causing trouble for LG.

I think LG need to beef up their office security.

0
0
Anonymous Coward

or

sony's sales of PS3's are going to go through the roof over the next week or so, plus lots of free advertising for when they start importing again

1
1
Grenade

Swallow your own medecine and smile Sony.

I frankly hope that LG will prevail and that Sony will have to scrap their lines.

Sony does nothing good for us and even in pro video they are hated.Sony has became a bad company and if they fold i won't be crying.So GO LG ! Give them a taste of their own medecine.

I just want to be informed when they destroy the material , i got a new sledgehammer all polished and ready for the job that i want to put to good use.Call me :)

9
2
Flame

Europe?

You say Europe and then mention no comment from HM Customs? I take it this includes the UK then? Or do you mean Europe as in the Sony assigned sub-division? Or maybe the continent?

Aside from that, I'm sure a manufacturer of cheap shit disc drives won't keep this up for long. Or perhaps they've had a little help from someone.

Go Sony, fuck all you hacker-supporting linux-loving hippy tossers.

2
14
WTF?

wtf?

1. We are not responsible for this. Although I have to admit, it is rather ironic.

2. We are not hippies ... or tossers (metaphorically, you have to understand).

3. Sadly you are otherwise right, I do not think this ban can be kept up indefinitely. Something will happen and likely, Sony will be able to reverse the ban with minimal, if any, concessions made.

4. I think however, perhaps this is the time to tell more people who would otherwise not know about how Sony has been treating us now and maybe with the ban in place, they would pause and reflect, and maybe come to a decision of their own on what to make of Sony and what to do about it. Boycott imho. I am not saying this will lead to a larg-ish dent in Sony's custom, but maybe with current events, it will hurt more. So... tell your friends... hit up the other websites you might frequent. Tell people about Sony and what they really are like...

5. About LG, hmmm... we'll have to look into this as well.... I am not entirely sure this patent issue they are pursuing has merit but I don't know for sure that it doesn't. But, Sony hurt us first. More than once actually, if you count the rootkit thing. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

4
0
Grenade

obligatoury daily fail comment

the daily mail forums are that way --->

don't trip over the atlas on the way out.

and don't forget your copy of the Control of Misleading Advertisements Regulations (1988) and Sony's EULA.

Perhaps coming onto a site such as el reg to beat on intellectual linux using techies wasn't the best idea ever.

4
0

Re: Europe

I'd rather be a "hacker-supporting linux-loving hippy tosser" than a corporate shill trolling forums :)

12
0
Bronze badge
Pint

Nice!

"hacker-supporting linux-loving hippy tossers".

I see you're quite brave, shouting your silliness from Mum's basement but not so brave you choose to use your own nickname, preferring to remain anonymous.

I like hacking consoles and using Linux, I also listen to a lot of death metal and happily support wars with several of my family in the armed forces, so you see not IT geeks are hippies, we just like to exercise our choices.

Now please depart for the underside of the nearest bridge, you pointless tiny-minded individual.

5
0
Anonymous Coward

@The Fuzzy Wotnot

Who's to say Dante isn't his real first name, bit poncy but possible. I'm pretty sure that "The Fuzzy Wotnot isn't your given name, though.

0
2
FAIL

@@The Fizzy Wotnot

Nice reading comprehension fail there. I believe Fuzzy's reply was to the original AC poster, not the post above, which appeared to be in broad agreement with his (her?) own.

0
0
Silver badge
Troll

Hackers, eh? Onoes!

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hacker

Round here, people are more likely to take that to mean definitions 4 or 5...

(computing) one who is expert at programming and solving problems with a computer

(computing) a computer security professional

... than 3 ...

(computing) one who uses a computer to gain unauthorized access to data.

.. which doesn't even really apply, in the strictest sense, in this case.

So by posting your little rant, you have only really highlighted your own ignorance, in more than one way. Also, please explain to me why LG's goods are 'shit' as opposed to any others, or are you of the illogical opinion that more expensive = better?

Maybe you sohuld have used this icon instead?

0
0

Wonder when

LG will try and make sony push a nice new update that disables the blue ray drive... lol

5
0
Unhappy

Title

No sympathy for Sony here. They deserve as difficult a time as possible for their recent behavior.

However, all that aside, if this is based on patents granted in the US, then we really have something to worry about.

2
0

will anyone notice?

I'm sure there's plenty of stock sitting on shelves and March is hardly a big month for purchasing a console thats been out for years is it?

0
0
Silver badge

will anyone notice

Er yes,

Shops expect deliveries at least weekly. Have you not heard of just In Time delivery schedules.

You don't want a loot of stock sitting around it's costing you money.

2
0
Happy

All i wish to say

<Nelson Muntz>

Ha Ha!

</Nelson Muntz>

4
0
Headmaster

If I may be a pedant...

...it is not necessary to use the "full name" Muntz. Most Reg readers, I suspect, would mentally click the Tab key in their minds and auto-complete what they are reading, thus it is not necessary to type the full name. :)

That being said, I feel obliged to concur: <Nelson>Ha, ha!</Nelson>

0
0
Silver badge
Joke

kingpin, we aint got cows just a bull

>use the "full name" Muntz

I guess it beats the full name Roy Munson. Who likes to be munsoned.

0
0
Silver badge
Troll

Obligatory troll

<Nelson>I see no ships</Nelson>

1
0

So what's changed?

Has Sony suddenly changed something in the PS3 that LG are now able to claim for?

0
0
WTF?

So, lets see how this works...

A korean company (LG) sues a Japanese company (Sony) against a US patent, which is heard in the EU, so imports get stopped in to the UK.

Your right, the world is screwed up.

4
1
Happy

SCOny live by the sword

so they should die by the sword.

I hope LG win.

3
0
MJI
Silver badge

Patent trolling

I have had a quick look.

Looks like patent trolling to me.

ALL BluRay players would have the same issues, are Lucky Goldstar suing them as well?

0
1

Indeed

The thing is, BluRay technology is licensed through the BluRay Disk Association, of which LG is a member. All these patents ought to be covered within that. Especially if the original PS3 uses the technology, it was practically the blueprint for BluRay 1.0.

0
0
MJI
Silver badge

Sony are BDA as well

Very strange behaviour from LG

0
0

LG is in breach of Clause 16 of the BDA's by-laws.

LG is foolish, the use of member patents in BluRay products is covered by Clause 16 of the BluRay Disc Association's by-laws which govern member conduct and the sharing of copyrighted information, patented and non-patented information.

Here's is part of that clause;

Each Member hereby agrees, on its behalf and on behalf of its Affiliated Companies, that it is willing to grant, or cause its Affiliated Companies to grant, to any interested party (“Potential Licensee”) a non-exclusive, non-transferable, world-wide licenses on fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms and conditions under any of the Essential Patents which the Member and its Affiliated Companies have the right to license and/or sublicense without obtaining approval from or paying compensation to a third party (“Full License Rights”) at the time of such Member’s accession to the BDA or thereafter, to use, sell, offer for sale, develop, manufacture, have manufactured, import or export or otherwise dispose of products that are in full compliance with any Blu-ray Disc Format,

0
0
Bronze badge

"fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms and conditions"

I think you will find that the definition "fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms and conditions" is what caused this whole fracas.

0
0

Not really....

LG has had nearly 5 years to determine that Sony's use of their technology was somehow infringing. Sony was the major driving force behind the development of Bluray technologies, this dispute and LG's actions over BluRay have really got nothing to do with BluRay, and it's a stretch to argue as you have. I suspect you simply wish to justify LGs actions because it apparently suits your world view that Sony is the bad guy.

The dispute here is about cell phone technology, and LG has hastily targeted Bluray and pecifically the PS3 because they know it can cause Sony a significant inconvenience. they are not acting within the terms of their BluRay Disc Association membership, the cross licensing that the BDA entails is pretty much cast iron and it specifically covers the manufacture of BluRay devices and media. LG is gaming the system to make a point in another dispute. In doing so they are directly and indirectly affecting many consumers who were not affected by the dispute over cellphones. In essence LG is using consumers as weapons in a dispute with Sony.

0
0
FAIL

LG

"Aside from that, I'm sure a manufacturer of cheap shit disc drives won't keep this up for long. Or perhaps they've had a little help from someone."

Not that they're one of the world's biggest conglomerates or anything? I don't think they'll need to have a whip-round any time soon.

1
0

Page:

This topic is closed for new posts.