A group of Oz agitators is demanding Blighty hand over the first map of the Lucky Country to use the word "Australia". The Australian "birth certificate" was drawn up by Brit explorer and cartographer Matthew Flinders, a Royal Navy officer, who from 1801-1803 surveyed Terra Australis, as it was then known. The home leg of his …
To be fair to them...nicking other peoples stuff is what the country was based upon, so it really is based upon a long tradition.
So, let me get this right. Flinders was a Royal Navy person (not Oz Roayal Navy) and was on his way back to Blighty AFTER doing some work there (probably not for the convicts). He drew the map in Mauritius, far, far away from Oz. That would imply then that the drawing does NOT belong to Oz. It seems more and more that today's yoof 'just want' things and think that they are 'entitled' to everything. Not so. Work for what you want and stop demanding things.
Give them a piece of paper and a pen
And let them draw thier own bloody map.
... but only if you take your bloody queen back.
Well, if that's the way you're thinking...
...how about putting the thing on show, instead of hiding it away - as if you are embarrassed about us.
Sheesh, just because you hang onto the Ashes you think you own the place again!
The one with the Oz flag hanging out of the pocket - I just collected that at our local authority Australia Day ceremony - ta muchly.
"Sheesh, just because you hang onto the Ashes"
Ah. Now we're getting there...
Then how about you take Rolf Harris back?
At least ...
we could send them a photocopy.
Doesn't it belong to the French?
Strictly speaking Flinders was employed by the French at the time so the map surely must belong to France?
they say he was imprisoned by the french. do they pay a salary for being in the nick?
also - fuck you australia.
if i draw a picture of kylie (10 years ago) can i have her then?
Exactly. I mean...
"He classifies the map as the "Elgin Marbles of Australian history", and has asked defence secretary Liam Fox to act to ensure it is in Oz in time for the bicentenary of Flinders' death in 2014."
Elgin Marbles of Australian History? Fucking idiot. It was drawn by an Englishman and is kept in England. What's so unusual about that? It's not theirs and never was so cannot be implied to be some kind of stolen item. Just get fucked, you're not having it - much like the ashes urn.
Please take her, and Rolf Harris while your at it.
if i draw a picture of kylie (10 years ago) can i have her then?
Yes. But only if you promise to keep her.
I think it would be a nice gesture to release the map to them (bearing in mind that it's also part of the history of the Royal Navy, exploration and map-making here).
The article implies they are actually being quite demanding and bitter about it, I can only hope that this is over a long-standing request for the map that's gone unheard rather than a opening salvo of nationalistic nonsense.
The problem is that once the map goes to Oz they would never give it back, and would then be free to do whatever they want with it. I understand you may be happy with this, but there are many that would not be.
What next? The repatriation of the Kohinoor diamond??
It has a habit of killing any man that wears it. I doubt they want it back.
Wait, if I draw a picture of Mars are little green men going to come and ask for what is 'rightfully' theirs?
Struggle to understand the concept of ownership here...
May as well...
...give it to the Aussies rather than keep it in some government office in the UK where no-one can see it, assuming of course that they'll put it in a museum.
But the indignant tone of the quoted Aussies is a bit rich I think. Didn't they ever learn to ask nicely?
Re: May as well...
> the indignant tone of the quoted Aussies is a bit rich I think. Didn't they ever learn to ask nicely?
Maybe they did but the AQI made it impossible to tell(...?)
Bad El Reg, you missed reporting the bit where they owned it in the first place...
Nice use of sarcasm.
Do these people believe there was nothing and no-one of consequence in that land prior to Flinders' time? I thought such attitudes were considered a bit of a faux pas these days.
The only document that could reasonably be described as White Australia's birth certificate is the Act of Parliament that gave them independence. Comparable documentary evidence for Black Australia's origins are probably scratched on Uluru.
Black Oz, which one ?
so far at least 3 pre-european settlement events are known, including the disastrous introduction of feral species like the dingo around 5000 years ago or less. I await the call for recognition of initial ownership of mainland OZ by the southerners of Van Diemens Land.
Can we get the Bayeux Tapestry 'Back' then
Since this depicts events around the birth of modern Engerland.
Paris 'cos it's in France Innit.
Not quite the same
Since the Bayeux Tapestry is genraly considerd to have been made in England, by English people and then taken to France a later date we do have some claim over it, but are grown up enough to realise that these later movements are as much part of the objects history as who made it in the first place.
Re: Not quite the same
"We ... are grown up enough to realise that we wouldn't want to set a precedent."
There. Fixed that for you. (I'm reminded of a line in one of the Dangermouse cartoons where DM refers to "the Plundered Room of the British Museum".)
Personally I think it would be nice to have most of these objects "on tour" and the repeated claims of ownership by people aggrieved on behalf of someone else's ancestors are probably more of a block on touring than the (more obvious) financial barrier. This latest outburst is probably the sole reason why the map won't now be on show in Oz next year.
Wasn't there a group of people living in Oz prior to the a load of white trash convicts turning up,? Can't remember who they are now, Abba something? It sounds like the current incumbents of Oz seem to have forgotten too!
A beer icon as after 200 years of practice, the Aussies still can't brew a decent pint!
Careful there. You'll have the Ockers demanding the world recognise their invention of flat-pack furniture next.....
By that logic then...
As the original inhabitants, the Aborigenes can legitimately claim back all of their land rights from the European interlopers that now inhabit the land?
Try reading, some are
A few are, usually by suggesting that all non-ancient arrivals owe a self identified group permanent rent, some thing poms should know about when the romanised vikings from frogland stole the saxons land around 1066. For centuries after that these vikings tried to steal land from assorted celts also, with varying degrees of "unsuccess".
As for the map, a good photocopy would be nice, but remember, these are kids, probably in need the occasional flogging to remind them of manners. Something poms seemed to do frequently in past, given the high number of psychopaths they produce, if any of the documents and folk law in my library is an indication.
I think the comparison with the Elgin marbles is a bit off target.. Greek historic pieces being nabbed could be said to be Greek and demanded back.....but a map drawn by a visitor was hardly ever the ownership of any Aus inhabitant...
sorry Aus but asking nicely might be more appropriate...
It's not like it's an original Australian artifact.
I did however take my Dad to the Ashmolean in Oxford when he was over, I introduced it to him as the "Museum of Plunder".
Similarly, the mirror from the Leviathan of Parsonstown (Birr in the Rep of Ireland) currently resides in the Science Museum after the telescope was dismantled. I heard (an unsubstantiated) rumour that the Science Museum wouldn't give it back when the telescope was being restored.
"Elgin Marbles of Australian history"
Except we didn't go along and nick it to show off in a museum. It was drawn up by a British person working for the Royal Navy while a prisoner. So it's not really the "Elgin Marbles of Australian history" at all, as strictly speaking they have no right to "Demand" a bit of paper with their countries name written on it.
If they were nice about it then sure, give it to them. But if they are going to be dicks then I demand we not give this property over to the convicts.
"The Elgin Marbles of Australia"?
So that means it stays here, right?
If the Greeks can't get something of immense cultural significance, the caucasian colonise^W invaders of Terra Australis Incognita can go hang.
Best place for it?
"should be on public display in Australia, where it can be appreciated."
Unless of course it's been kept at the moment in a nice safe location away from bright light to avoid it fading.
And if it is then it probably needs to be on public display in a very dark room in the same way as the Magna carta etc.
Not the birth certificate of Australia but possibly its first "ultrasound scan"
p****d because we beat them in the Ashes. Sorry that should be destroyed them in the Ashes.
The Aussies have now lost their dominance again the old country in sport, we beat them on the rugby field, the cricket pitch, the velodrome, the swimming pool, etc.
You have to feel sorry for them.
Even the Easten Europeans have replaced them in their natural vocation of serving behind the bar in most of londons pubs.
It's not rightfully theirs
But I still think we should give it to them... for a small fee
Using Aussie Logic™ the Hydrographic Office in Taunton owns Australia.
All we have to do is sell it back to the Aussies and that's the deficit gone.
Type "http://regmedia.co.uk/2011/01/25/flinders_oz_map.jpg" into your browser's address bar. Then click 'File' then 'Print..' . Problem solved.
I would love...
A brief explanation why this map is rightfully Australia's? As far as I can see it was drawn by an RN Officer undertaking the Crown's business.
Rather than starting with polemic, trying to compare a map drawn by someone from another country to stones dismantled from the Parthenon, why didn't they respectfully ask to borrow it for the bicentennial celebrations of Flinders. It wouldn't suprise me if the UK Hydrographic Office would have actually agreed to a long term loan, if their owndership of it wasn't in question. Now I'm sure they would consider nothing of the sort.
If they're prepared to offer a fair price, sell it or trade it to them.
It isn't as if the Greeks wanting Greek Elgin Marbles back.
It is as if the Greeks had the Elgin Marbles and we wanted them.
But clearly the map is worth far far more to them than to us. And they do have more money than us.
We should sell this national treasure (a British citizen created while working for Britain) to the Australians, or trade it to them.
How about a deal
No Australian is ever allowed to say the words "whinging" proceeded by "pom" ever again, if someone does then the 'birth certificate' gets shipped back to England.
Although I forsee a deal like that being broken in 0.0034 seconds.
So let me get this right... A map drawn by an Englishman, in the HM's Royal Navy is the property of Australia because it's a sketch of Australia?
Well I've just drawn a sketch of a Kangaroo mooning, and another sticking it's fingers up. Would you like those too?
I too will go with the "Get the fuck out of Australia then since it isn't your land". I liked Australia...then I went there. Never again. And I've been to Stoke on Trent which is about as welcoming to southerners as Polish man in a BNP meeting
good reason for your experience too
we are kind to some people. Europeans and Asians mostly. They wash, speak english and aren't poms or yanks.
Why don't they just
pay tribute to their founding fathers, and nick it?
They want The Ashes back as well I suppose ?
You were soundly thrashed fair and square on home turf so tough titty toenails.
The case for the Elgin marbles is a tricky one, because the Ottoman Empire gave them to Lord Elgin who then sold them to the British Museum. In a subsequent enquiry, the paperwork drawn up by the Turks never materialised, although someone did claim to have an Italian translation of it somewhere, but he forgot to turn up to the enquiry. It should also be remembered that the Ottoman Empire used the Parthanon as an arms depot during this time, so one stray spark from a shisha would have vapourised the whole lot anyway...
Additionally, the British Museums Act prohibits the return of any artefact unless it is "worthless or a duplicate"!
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