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back to article Xbox 360 outsells PS3 2:1

Microsoft has been selling a lot more Kinect bundles than Sony has sold PlayStation 3 and Move combos a US market watcher has claimed. And that suggests that it's selling more than twice as many consoles as its arch-rival is. According to Michael Pachter, an analyst with Wedbush Securities, by way of Industry Gamers, "about one …

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Boffin

hmmmm

Yes, 5:1 ratio is very a good figure for the fanboys to fap over, but you have to take into account that Kinect costs around £130 and is therefore more "bundleable"?

I'll bet a lot of PS3 buyers are buying the bundle with the most games and then buying a move starter pack on top, because the perceived value of a multigame bundle is higher than a move bundle (move starter pack only costs £42). Whereas, the higher price of the Kinect device gives the Kinect bundle a higher perceived value for Xbox 360 buyers.

Considering that the Kinect apparently only costs £35 to make, the £130 price point might pay off in this respect.

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agreed

We're buying a PS3 just after xmas, and it was very easy for me to decide on buying the PS3 separately from the move kit given the PS3 model I want is not offered with the bundle, and the value of the bundle is not radically different from the value of the 2 purchased separately. It really makes little difference either way.

As for xBox outselling PS3 2:1 in general, it's Christmas time, and the xBox is significantly lower in price and generally preferred by the younger generation to boot (older guys like me see the value in the PS3 and are more interested in the types of games available, not to mention its BR player).

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Anonymous Coward

@Bullseyed

Speaking only for myself rather than some sweeping generalism about anyone that's ever bought a PS3. I don't have money to burn...I simply went for the more powerful machine and saved up a bit more.

You can call that a cost/benefit decision if you like.

Pwned icon.

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Money to burn

Whereas frugal people spend £130 on a £35 webcam, naturally.

At any rate the 360 and PS3 have been about the same price for a long time, especially if you want fancy high tech features like rechargeable controllers or Wi-Fi.

In terms of value for money, that has always been a one horse race, even for the 6 - 9 months the PS3 was more expensive.

I'm guessing your mum would only let you have one.

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GT5?

I think the big seller for PS3 at the moment is the release of Gran Turismo 5, i've not tried it, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to be playing that with a move controller. So I'm not suprised they're not selling that many proportionally. Whereas the kinect add on is the major highlight for xbox at the moment.

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Indeed

This is just MS Propaganda to get round the news they are now in last place in console sales, despite starting WAY before either PS3 or Wii.

Playing GT5 it's utter brilliance, and Watching Kinect down currys at the weekend, it was the laughing stock of anyone that bothered to try it out. A system that promises the world and delivers very little Aside from a cheezy raft jumping game and a cheezy steering game.

Move offers WAY more beyond the Kinect novelty value. It's got the casual titles (Start The Party, Tumble, the dancing games), it's got the more serious games, Resident Evil, Heavy Rain, and it's got the inbetweeners too, Singstar etc. It's also got the price; £40. This is why Sony have already shifted over 5m PS3 Move units in a month and a bit (unit = controller, or starter pack), and Microsoft are telling the world that they think Kinect will sell 5m between now and the end of the year.

Will Microsoft sell 5m Kinects? I'm guessing so, as Nintendo managed to sell snake oil to consumers in the form of the Wii, so i'm guessing Microsoft will do the same here, but lets not fool outselfs it's actually any good.

Anyone thinking of getting Kinect, I would STRONGLY suggest trying before you buy and check out the very narrow genre of games on offer.

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@ AC

As far as I can tell, the 360 and PS3 are too close to call, but frankly, who cares? They both sell well enough to be very well supported, and thats all that matters for either one.

"I guess those are the types of things you have to tell yourself when you picked the dud of the pack" - Methinks the lady doth protest too much?

Your comments about Kinect make no sense. However, even if we look at what you're trying to say.

"feet, legs, arms, hands, head"- tracking your legs and feet may be very important to you. Maybe MS will release a game of the Hokey Cokey, but in the meantime, tracking your legs on a system where you have to stand to use it is next to useless. "Stand on one leg to reload?" It makes no sense. Head tracking is generally equally useless - so every time I look at my ammo, I swing down towards the ground? Or do I have to try and remeber to use my eyes for some tasks, and my head for others. It really is trying to fix a problem that just doesn't exist. Then there's the important one - tracking your arms. This is all good and well, but the only really useful game mechanic involved here is putting something accurately into your hand, allowing you to manipulate objects in the 3d world, that sort of thing. Move is more accurate at this, not to mention the most important aspect of all - buttons. With Kinect, how exactly do you pick an object up? It's not accurate enough to detect your fingers, so you're left shouting "XBOX: PICKUP" or stamping your feet or something.

The "full body dancing games" don't actually map your full body onto a character - it's not up to it. Also, you may want to look into this - games that do this are also available for the Wii and the PS3.

Driving games - fine, as long as you don't want any fancy little details, like an accelerator, or brakes, or pretty much any controls other than steering.

It in no way has a "wide range of sports games" - it doesn't yet have a wide range of any games.

I can't even be bothered with the rest of your post. It's like you've been frozen in a glacier since 2006, and in that time have suffered a certain degree of frostbite to the brain. Is your assertion really that the PS3 is "dead in the water" because it's recent optional peripheral doesn't allow you to take penalty shootouts?

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Boffin

OMG MS fanboys!

The most amusing thing about this round of console wars is this: It doesn't matter if you buy a Kinect or a Move, in 6 months it will be gathering dust along with your Wii, your EyeToy, your "Karaoke DDR" microphone and your USB diadem you only used once with LifeLine. Time after time some boneheaded exec tries to bolt on some new gimmick onto a best-selling console, releases a couple of games that use 'em ... and then watches the game crash and burn, and then the addon die off because no-one else wants to add support for something that isn't standard on all consoles. The Wii was an instant hit because the motion controller was a standard controller for the thing, not something that had to be added later!

And while PS3 is still "third place" in the worldwide numbers (4 million down), you should notice that the only regions where the 360 still leads are the US and UK; everywhere else the PS3 outnumbers the 360; and that is without counting that a good bunch of those 360's are RRoD replacements.

And well... something that I've seen more appealing than movement controllers is the 3D stuff in certain games. I've seen a Gran Turismo 5 ... on 3D. That pulled my attention much more than the Kinect display I've seen ... where handling the controllerless menu was akin to using a miscalibrated touchscreen. I haven't tried the Move yet, but I'll probably be unimpressed as well.

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erm....

wasnt drakes fortune classed as the best platformer of all time?

most people know that FPS = PC. they are terrible on a console. for me the ps3 was the easy choice. im not getting dragged into a flame war tho as im 35 and beyond all this childishness. both have their ups and downs, i personally prefer the ps3 exclusives to the xbox ones.

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Silver badge

HAHA

You both FAIL

Who gives a shit - you don't see people arguing that their Philips kettle is better than their mates Murphy Richards kettle. Can you imagine two people arguing over that? It would be pathetic wouldn't it, they both do the same things! Makes tea for the kettles and plays games for the consoles!

I own a DS a PC and a Wii with its "silly outdated controlls" and it has good games, as dose the DS, the PC, the PS3, the 360 and PSP - grow up and have fun playing the games ffs!

You lot give fanbois a bad name! Its like the Speccy vs the C64 and the SNES vs the Megadrive all over again!

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Re: Daniel B

"I haven't tried the Move yet, but I'll probably be unimpressed as well."

It's like the Wii but really really really accurate and works on every axis.

2 x motion controllers and a go on Tumble is a good demo of the accuracy, if your TV supports 3D then it's a good example of the things to come.

Start the party is a good example of Move AR even if the game itself is a little limited.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @Octopoid

""The "full body dancing games" don't actually map your full body onto a character - it's not up to it."

What are you on about? Try Dance Central, it does precisely this, so you're obviously completely wrong."

It precisely does not do that.

What Dance Central does, precisely, is this.

You have to copy the dance moves of the on-screen character and are awarded points for how well you do this. All Kinect does is background removal and matches the resultant 2d silhouette of the player to what the game character is doing. If your silhouette matches the one it is expecting, you get points and the character moves on. People often feel that they are controlling the onscreen character in Dance central but they are not, it's the other way around. It is most certaily not, full skeletal mapping, which is one of the few cool things that kinect can do (which incidentally comes at a huge processsing price which is the reason for the big lag in games that do use it).

It's the same with a lot of the Kinect games, they are designed to let you feel you are doing stuff in the game that you are not.

Another example... JoyRide, at the start of a race when you first set off, the car sways left and right for a second or two, this is to prompt you into reacting by moving your hands to control the car which then straightens up and you think to yourself "phew, got that one under control, this steering must be really responsive" but the reality is you have done nothing, the game did it all. It's like you're all being "Derren Browned" or something.

(Infamous) Joyride example here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWbLOFGSEDo watch the car at the start.

It will be interesting to see what the developers come up with in the next 6 months or so, but I'm not holding my breath because inspite of the impressive technical nature of the device, if you take Kinect as a whole, including games, it's fucking bullshit.

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FAIL

Hillarious stuff

Some of this has already been covered by the AC below, but anyway:

"Yes, that's why the game football isn't real, because footballers can't possible use their legs to kick a ball whilst stood up."

I never said that standing up wasn't real. That doesn't make any sense. If you actually read my post, I acknowledge at the end that kicking a ball is something the Kinect can do. Fine, no problem.

"It can handle mock snowboard/skiing leg movements"

I think you'll find that most of that relates more heavily to your waist, but fine - you can lean to steer, just like the Wii balance board.

"Try Dance Central, it does precisely this"

No it doesn't. They tried, but it wasn't up to it, so the on screen characters just play preset animations, and it loosely scores you on how close you are. There's a big big difference.

"Head movements can be used for simple things such as nodding your head to say yes in an RPG game"

Yeah, you could. I have to say pressing A has never really been too problematic for me, and how often do you really get asked yes/no questions in RPGs? It's normally "pick an answer from this list".

"voice recognition voice is an option too"

This really doesn't have much to do with Kinect, does it? This bit doing the work is software, and apart from that all it has is a built in microphone array, which Move absolutely does have. Even if it didn't, and Kinect didn't both consoles obviously have headsets available.

"there's no reason other driving games, such as those with Kinect support demoed but not out yet, can't use the afformentioned feet movement for this"

This one is genius. Are you serious? So, how's that going to work? Are you suggesting that you stand (remember you HAVE to stand) on the balls of your feet and then rock your right foot forward for the accelerator and the right foot for the brake? Even if the Kinect was accurate to detect this, which it probably isn't, that sounds horribly bad for your legs. The other option is, what? To lift your leg up to operate the pedal? You can't press it down, unless you've mastered a method of lifting both legs while standing. Let's hope you don't need to do any rally where you need both pedals at once eh? I won't bother going into it, but the whole "pretend steering wheel" concept just doesn't work either, for a good half a dozen reasons.

"Bowling, Sprinting, Hurdles, Javelin, Boxing, Darts, Football, Discus, Long Jump, Table Tennis, Volleyball, Tennis, Archery, Paintball, Figure skating, Skiing, Hang gliding"

A collection of sports mini games you say? Groundbreaking stuff.

"Kinect is the only input device that can handle some of these sports- i.e. figure skating."

Is that REALLY because the Kinect is the only device that can "handle" figure skating, or is it actually the much more likely reason that no-one wants a figure skating game?

Oh, and whether you believe me or not - I have all 3 current gen consoles, and Move and Kinect. Move married with 3D is a fantastic experience - like the VR dream of old. Kinect feels like an advanced EyeToy experience. It's much better, but at the end of the day you're just waving your arms about to perform basic tasks and trigger preset animations. Even the menu browsing concept is basically exactly the same as the old EyeToy one.

Don't get me wrong though - both Move and Kinect will be all but forgotten this time next year. They're both limited and gimmicky to differing degrees. Move however, does one thing pretty well - putting an object in your hand in 3D space. Kinect tries to do loads of things, and ends up doing a pretty poor job of most of them.

"I guess you're just crying that someone insulted your poor little PS3?"

Now that's funny - coming from an AC who's actually 75% XBOX boner by volume.

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LPF

Oh Christ ....

let the flame wars begin!

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Anonymous Coward

Replacements

Surely soo many 360's are getting sold cos you need to replace the last one which has RROD'd on you.

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FAIL

Replacements....

...are free for 3 years in the UK.

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FAIL

and...?

PS3 has been outselling the Xbox in Japan 10:1 for the last year... Your point? Americans like American things, Japanese like Japanese things....

Brits just buy the best, which is why the PS3 has been outselling the 360 most weeks over here....

Still nothing like sensationalist Microsoft propaganda on a slow news day.

Clearly anyone that thinks this is newsworthy is a moron and missing the point that the Xbox is now in last place in sales, after the Sony closed down that 18months and 9m headstart in just under 4 year years (and at a much higher pricepoint), so clearly the PS3 is outselling the Xbox by 2m consoles globally EVERY year since launch.

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FAIL

VGchartz - LOL, the worlds most unreliable source of information.

LOL, despaerate Xbox fanboys...

Try looking at the ONLY source of official sales numbers - Microsoft and Sony end of year financial reports: NOTE: Sony run April - April and Microsoft run Dec - Dec, so the 2010 numbers are not really valid right now.

PS3:

http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps3_sale_e.html

2006: 3.5m (part year sales Dec - March, US only)

2007: 9.1m

2008: 10.1m

2009: 13m

2010: 5.9m (to date, as Sony run April - April)

Xbox:

Microsoft seem to hide their data very well from fanboys. But these numbers are extracted from MS financial reports and are legit.

http://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar08/10k_fr_not_18.html

http://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar10/10k_fr_dis.html

2006: 5m

2007: 6.6m

2008: 8.7m

2009: 11.2m

2010: 10.3m

The fact remains, Microsoft launched 18months before Sony, amassed 9m console sales, and now it's even-stevens... Clearly Sony has been massively outselling Microsoft year on year and at a higher price.

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Happy

Seriously

Put the PS3 controller down. Take a deep breath and go outside for some fresh air.

You need a life.

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Silver badge
Happy

@Chris Harrison

The PS3 dudes will put the controller down when the XBox dudes place their S controllers down as well. These kind of articles lure both types, it's kinda like the Apple articles. I do wonder why companies have those different "year periods"... shouldn't they all use Dec-Dec or Jan-Jan periods?

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Gates Halo

Re

No business or corporate experience then Daniel B, eh?

Company fiscal years are determined based on when the company was incorporated. For example, HP's fiscal year runs from November 1st to October 31st.

Otherwise if you'd have to wait until January 1st to start your company or have a huge hole in your records.

@the guy who posted the 10k report numbers

You know that companies can put whatever they want in their 10k's right? Sure, they have some audit guidelines, but nothing in a 10k should be taken as 100% true, much less an attempt at extrapolating console sales.

Additionally, it would make sense that Sony's revenue numbers would be high, their console is far more overpriced. That doesn't mean it is outselling the Xbox, quite the opposite actually. If you want to argue revenue over units sold, we might as well talk EBITA or gross profit then. (protip, Microsoft will win there too).

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FAIL

2-1?

Actually it is 1.45 million vs 550K. 3-1 would be slightly more accurate.

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flawed logic?

Half of xbox buyers want kinect but only one fifth of PS3? i am not sure you could assume that, and given the relatively low cost of Move, many people would just buy a PS3 and a move pack at the same time.

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MJI
Silver badge

Wait until next year

Looks like most good games of 2011 are PS3 exclusive or multiplatform.

This should solve the problem for Sony.

The "not as good as Project Natal" (I hate the name Kinect and the released version is definately sub Natal unfortunately #) customers are not that likely to buy the traditional 360 games.

With only GEARS* of War 3 as an AAA exclusive for 360 (AFAIR) compared to the 5 or more for PS3 I think next year PS3 will catch up.

Will buyers of the dancing game (reckoned to be best camera game) buy the core 360 audience games?

As to Sony Move - decent games are required.

Whatever 2011 will be interesting.

* Differentiate from GOD

# Revolution & Wii good name becomes naff name

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Unhappy

One thing missing

The only thing that stopped me buying a Move recently, was the news that you have to go through the calibration routines every bloody time you decide to play it. Unless they fix that, I'm not really interested.

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Anonymous Coward

Not hard

All you have to do to 'calibrate' it is aim the controller at the screen and press a button. I guess it's necessary because people playing will be varying heights. It's done in-game, not from the XMB and only takes a second, if that. Not a major drawback

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Happy

re: Not hard @AC

Thanks for that :-) The review I'd seen exaggerated it massively then. May be splurging in the Jan sales then..

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FAIL

Not surprising

The X-Box360 has sold more than 10 million consoles than the Playstation 3 in the US - note I said IN THE US!

In the US the X-Box360 has sold 27million, whereas the Playstation has sold 17million. Figures according to VGChartz.com.

Now, considering the US is the X-Boxes BIGGEST market, and it has completely outsold the PS3, AND this analyst is basing this statement ON US SALES, is it any bloody wonder that the kinect sales are a lot higher?

And for Microsoft X-Box fanboys, worldwide sales show only a 4 million lead over Sony - despite a 1.5 year head start on sales!! Very poor and Sony are catching up!

Why is this even news? Please look worldwide, not just in the USA!

In other news the PS Move has outsold the Kinect in Japan!! (I made this up. Not sure if it has been released in Japan yet - the PS Move that is).

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Stop

PS3 has now overtaken the Xbox in sales.

The numbers Microsoft used were numbers that included "in-transit" numbers. Sony report "sold to store".

It was a mere 300,000 units 2 months back., and at the current rate, the Xbox is almost certainly in last place. Of course that doesn't even take into account RROD replacements and people that just bought Xbox Slims because they were better. If you factor this, this PS3 is massively head in "gamer-count" rather than "console-count".

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Anonymous Coward

SOR

an of course all units "sold" to shops sell? ever heard of sale or return, no high street retail outlet would buy units without a sale or return clause

Look i work for a outlet of these two devices and whilst there was an upturn in PS3 sales when they went slim generally xbox has a larger sell through rate. Thats my opinion and that of several other large stores i talk to.

Finding actual customer sales data is going to be very hard / imposible, almost all figures you read will be to the store in one manor or another, the initial release of the PS3 was shocking, ~70% of the devices were returned, but i bet Sony didnt publish that!

Intrestingly we find most people who buy a PS3 do so because of Blu-ray, and the console is the "extra" bit.

I think if xbox ever had a blu-ray player which it wont but if it did sales figures would be much more intresting. Anyhow, what do i know, i only put these things in the customers hands and take their money.

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Duh....

It is common sense really that the cheaper console sells better than the most expensive console (even if the latter is the most powerfull). At the moment the least powerfull Wii is leading the sales chart (in all regions) followed by the 360 and then the PS3

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Not strange since...

PS3 Move bundle is more expensive than a PS3 + a Move starter kit, and the move starter kit is too expensive in itself (i.e. too little stuff in it for the price requested).

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Anonymous Coward

Availability?

The figures may have something to do with the fact that Sony seem unable to keep up with demand.

As of now a Move starter pack on Amazon is going for nearly £60 because Amazon don't have any in stock (and haven't had any for a while) and that is what their third-party sellers have pegged the price at. I should be selling for £40-£45.

A second motion controller will currently cost you - again on Amazon - £50.

Yes they are available elsewhere, but you have to search and be quick to get them when they come into stock.

That's a massive outlay for something that comes with no actual games, just a bunch of demos.

The Kinect it pricier, but you only ever need that one unit and they are freely available so selling at the proper RRP.

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FAIL

RE: Availability?

"A second motion controller will currently cost you - again on Amazon - £50."

Meanwhile, offline, you can nip down to Asda and pick one up for £29.99. Nav controllers are curently £19.99.

Kinect is currently £129.99.

All on the shelves, I was there yesterday.

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Anonymous Coward

RE: Availability?

Not at Asda online (£34.99, sold out) and not at my local store. Like I say, stocks are limited and you may have to be quick to get one when they are in

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Paris Hilton

Redundant redundancy.

Thanks for going to such trouble with the maths. Ms Hilton has figured it out now. That means she understands. To summarise, she's worked it out.

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Coat

Sony Fanbois make me laugh.

Lot's of nice excuses above from the sony faithful.

So MS are doing well here cos X360 is cheap, nope its because kinect is more expensive. or is it that sony aren't selling because they're sold out.

Get a grip.

Are you all really that insecure about your purchase?

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MJI
Silver badge

Not at all

Both consoles have good games. I just feel that 2011 is the PS3s year. And that Kinect (I hate that name) is a short term but very interesting blip.

I think the Wii will suffer though, a lot of their market will split with active going to MS and passive to Sony.

I think that long term the Sony trend of buying studios will pay off.

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MJI
Silver badge
Grenade

Only the Wii has really been a success

You need to remember that a lot has been spent on advertising by MS, I have seen 1 Move advert, too many to count Wiii adverts, and 5 or 6 Kinnect adverts.

As to on BBC news - neither system is main stream newsworthy.

As to worrying about sales - no, I am just going to carry on playing top rated games.

Nate found the grenade!

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Paris Hilton

@AC - Yes

Pot...Kettle...Black...Mirror...look in.

Etc...

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MJI
Silver badge
WTF?

Poor ports - hopefully soon gone, anyway gamers win.

With the change from 360 lead to PS3 lead multiplatforms seem to be getting better for everyone, regardless of format, learning to program for the Cell is improving code for the Xenon.

DLC - seems to be half 360 half PS3, no real difference in the end.

As to exclusives I would put the two flagship IPs as Uncharted and Halo, and Uncharted is as good as it has been hyped to be, a lot of Xbots hate on it simply due to being PS3 exclusive, do I hate on Halo, no, why should I? The developers of those two flagship IPs are actually friends!

Racers Forza / GT5 come down to personal preferences.

The developers do think that people who really knock platforms are fools as they are too busy playing each others games, yes Naughty Dog play Halo and Bungie play Uncharted 2.

Fable was slated this year, sad but true, RDR was not great on PS3 again sad but true.

I point out that 2011 is a great year for Sony launches and I get downvoted, yes it is good for the PS3 next year - best so far this generation, is it a crime? No.

Personally I do feel that the Natal project was short changed into Kinnect. I still think it should have had more processing built in and finger recognition.

I know I have been downvoted for owning a PS3 but it is not a crime.

I will state that if this is downvoted you must one of the fools the developers warn us about.

Finally what exclusive gamer games is the Xbox360 getting next year apart from GEARS* of War 3?

GOW means too many things now!

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Its always next year.

Since the day the PS3 came to market, its been 'next year is the PS3's year'. Its quite laughable - I've never understood why so many people fail to understand that we the consumers need a tight fight between the consoles. I have a wii, XBox360, and PS2 under my TV and I don't want any company to 'win' the war.

As to the kinect being a blip, that does depend on the games, but I don't think any of the three consoles motion based control systems are really up to scratch for anything beyond novelty gaming. They'll probably go the same way that I predict for the current 3d TVs - interesting technology but no killer app.

The wii may suffer a little in the marketplace, but I don't think many people are going to be trading in their wii for either move or kinect.

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MJI
Silver badge

This time for games I think it is

For the PS3 2007-8-9 were good, LBP in 2008 was very interesting. 2009 for UC2 again. Only really a few this year - GOW3 (GOD this time), Heavy Rain, GT5.

But there are a large amount coming out next year of established series, and third party developers not called Insomniac have finally got a handle on PS3.

I just happen to see what is being released and think - how can I afford them all.

3D - I think it will stay but not be popular.

Motion here to stay but hopefully optional, the best to use being the 360 Dancer, PS3 sports and PSN Tumble.

Bye the way casual games bore me - I want to be transported off to some exotic location and play as an interesting character, don't care if Soldier, Spaceman, Lombax, Assassin, or fortune hunter, just entertain and astonish me.

The huge this generation third person games to me are my favourites.

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