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back to article Flame throwing Apache flees Oracle's Java group

Apache is officially quitting Java's governing body after 10 years, slamming Oracle, the JCP, and fellow JCP members in the process. On Thursday, the ASF submitted its resignation from JCP's Java Standard and Enterprise Edition (SE/EE) Executive Committee as a direct consequence of the Java Community Process (JCP) vote to …

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FAIL

Nice job, Brussels!

This was flagged by the European Commission in January 2010. And then approved. Here http://ec.europa.eu/competition/mergers/cases/decisions/m5529_20100121_20682_en.pdf

923. A number of software vendors expressed the view during the market investigation that Oracle would also have the incentive to engage in input foreclosure in the form of raising rivals' costs in access to Java. In particular, these software vendors were concerned that Oracle could worsen licensing conditions by imposing restrictions to the licences, by changing the requirements of its TCK licenses, by raising licence prices, by delaying the availability of Java licences to competitors, thus technically disadvantaging competitors, by being selective in deciding which products to certify or by delaying certification

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Linux

It was written in the wall...

Larry! leave the kids alone!

All in all it's just another fork in the FOSS...

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tantrum

The toys have left the pram....

...sulk to follow!

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Happy

Good!

Now maybe we'll see something better developed. Java's been getting awfully old for a while now.

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Wow... stupidity in action ...

Its great that Apache made a stand.

Their actions are stupid in that they now walk away from the JCP over something that they had no chance in winning.

Apache will still work on and support java based initiatives like Hadoop so in walking away from the JCP, they did nothing but lose a voice on how to move forward with the future of Java features.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. Java is run by Oracle and IBM which are customer driven companies. So instead of Bob's fish shop providing input, CME, NYSD, Wal*Mart, etc ... will provide input to Oracle or IBM and it will still get done.

Bottom line, Apache picked the wrong fight.

(Now lets see the mods post this... cause they already rejected two of my other posts on different articles... clearly because of content. ;-)

-G

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rash.

Maybe they were a bit rash and hasty. But maybe they have a plan.

Do you think a fork is in the cards?

I would say if that were the case, we're up for interesting times. However I don't know if Apache on its own will be able to fork with enough support. Who will back them? Will their JVM's remain competitive? And if the fork starts to diverge very significantly....

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Bob's fish shop?

Not sure how Apache is not a "customer driven company". Last time I looked, their software served up more than half of the internet.

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Grenade

Speak Your Branes

Maybe you got moderated away because you're a self-important arse?

The vote wasn't about community input into the technical roadmap - read the report - but on a more vibrant eco-system including non-Oracle JVMs such as Harmony. Not that Oracle really cares about the ASF: Google is probably the bigger target as what wouldn't Larry do to get money for Dalvik for every damn Android phone out there?

Politically the repercussions of Oracle's strategy make time some time to unfold. Initially, it will no doubt be good for Oracle's business by allowing it to raise fees and increase their scope on its open source products. However, the move to freeze out non-blessed JVMs may cause problems in the academic community that has been so important in getting Java established as a language.

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Pint

The right course of action

If Oracle puts its own commercial interest ahead of their responsibilities as custodian of a supposedly open standard, they have to bear the consequences. This might look like a small issue now, but will end up undermining Java. You can't claim to be open on the one hand, and play politics on the other.

I really hope Apache forks Java and calls it Harmony or the like, and that companies that actually grok openness and standards (like Red Hat) follow. Principled players such as universities should switch to teaching another language like Python or "Harmony". See where that leaves Oracle 5 years down the line.

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Boffin

@Evil and also Forking...

I wanted to clarify a couple of comments...

@Evil, the question isn't if Apache is or is not customer driven. The point was that Oracle and IBM *are* in fact customer driven. So that for those critical of the 'loss' of Apache means that Oracle and IBM are free to do what they want, they really aren't. Oracle and IBM are going to do what makes them the most amount of money. And that is done by listening to their customers. The point is that if IBM did something that their major customers like Wal*Mart didn't like, Wal*Mart's CIO gets on the hotline to Sam @ IBM and complains. IBM then backs down.

Apache is unfortunately not in a strong position. Apache is a good concept but to a point. Apache is at the mercy of its contributors. Many of those contributors work for large corporations. Using Hadoop as an example... Suppose Facebook, Yahoo!, and StumbleUpon (SU) were to decide that it was no longer in their best interest to contribute to the community effort and bring things back 'in-house'. That would leave Cloudera as the only outside contributor. The project which today has critical mass, would lose that critical mass and fail to get traction in the marketplace. We can see this even within the project. There's a critical piece... indexing, where two sets of developers worked on ideas. Both got moved to github for several reasons including that they were not being well maintained by their contributors.

Which leads to the other question ... forking the distro.

Hows that working out for MySQL?

You can fork an Apache distro easily because the licensing allows you to do pretty much anything with the code. However that doesn't mean you'll get good committers to the project, or that companies will want to use your product over the alternatives.

Forking Java is going to be a tad more difficult because its not an existing Apache project and even though OpenSource, Not all Open Source Licensing is the same. Which is why you find projects like Hadoop/HBase not using GPL licensed Open Sourced compression like LZO. (The licenses are incompatible so the end user has to combine the products.)

Perhaps El Reg could get a reporter to look at what it would take to 'fork' Java?

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Coat

Gee Charlie...

Ever watch the movie Brazil?

The point lost on you and others is that the 'eco system' will still be vibrant. FOSS works because corporations allow it to work. Why? Because if done correctly, it lowers their cost of development.

I tend to use Hadoop as the example because it is done correctly.

Java is a different beast and its not in everyone's best interest to have a complete FOSS version. Mobile licensing provided a revenue stream to help fund the continued development of Java within Sun. The problem you and many have with Oracle is that unless something makes money at Oracle, its not going to happen. Oracle unlike IBM is not an innovator. Cut the revenue stream or threaten to cut the revenue stream, Oracle will react negatively.

One of my posts that didn't make the cut was a bit of a flame at the Reg because they essentially made Oracle's lawyers case for them. Oracle snubbed Google in not mentioning them. El Reg said, 'hello can you say Oracle's mobile phone platform is *java*?' (Paraphrasing of course). In doing so, Google's defense that they are using their own product that isn't Java goes away. In short El Reg spoke the unspoken truth that the Chocolate Factory doesn't want known. We (peers in the community) know that Dalvik ?sp? is really Java. Even Apache walked away from some of Google's claims.

So you can call me a pompous arse. I've been called much worse, yet my points still hold true.

You may not agree with them, but perhaps if you took off your rose colored glasses you might see differently.

The other post was a flame against Assnage. But then Chicago Tribune reporter Kass made pretty much the same point in his recent article.

Mine's the Gore Tex jacket with the winter lining. Why? Cause I don't need a flak jacket. My skin is *that* tough.

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Oracle

----

See where that leaves Oracle 5 years down the line.

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Let's see - it'll leave Oracle in exactly the same position it's in now. A database giant with a shed-load of server middle-ware running on Java. The only difference will be that they'll have almost total control over Java as fear of revocation of TCKs will bring the smaller vendors into line.

Larry Ellison will declare himself Emperor of Javaland and crush these rebel scum on their small moon of Harmony... ummm, or something like that anyway.

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WTF?

Ever watch the movie Brazil?

Yes, about 20 times in fact, but I'm having a hard time drawing the connection to Oracle and Java.

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FAIL

hmm wonder if regulators regretting Sunoracle now?

DB and java monopoly what db and java monopoly?

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Joke

Congrats to ASF for standing up to Oracle but

anybody else think of the nerd rage perk in Fallout 3 when they hear about big bad tough Apache standing up for its rights?

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Grenade

ASF are right

Why should they do all the hard work and not get a TCK? Fsck Oracle!

ASF are providing so much for Java ...

Oracle is killing Java!

Oracle, stop being evil - this will hurt just as much as it hurt SCO or Novell. You just bought Sun and you are destroying every little piece of it, slowly but surely ... what will it be worth in 3 years time if you go on like this?

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FAIL

Oracle is screwing up Java completely

Java's success is heavily based on its huge infrastracture. You can find a Java library for almost anything.

Apache is a BIG Java free-and-open-source library and infrstructure vendor (e.g. Tomcat).

If Apache leaves Java, lot of companies will leave with them (including ours).

Oracle's field of restrictions are worthless crap. Nobody creates a new Java mobile implementations anymore (so they can't rip off anybody with it), and Android will simply kill off J2ME this way. And if Android doesn't manage to kill J2ME, iOS will. JavaFX cannot change anything now. It is too late for that.

If Oracle had the brain of a mosquito, they would drop the field-of-use restrictions, open-source the remaining Java parts and grant the testing kit to everybody who expresses interest. This way they can rekindle the movement around Java and stop its slow sliding to irrelevancy.

They should make an income of supporting Java implementations. If they want to make big money on Java they are not living in this universe. Everyone will leave the platform as soon as possible (starting with open-source projects). This game has been played by Oracle on Oracle Forms and Reports. Companies using those tech have already left or are leaving feverishly.

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Anonymous Coward

legal?

Articles here keep saying that Oracle violated some legal JCP document. If that's the case, I am not sure why Apache is turning this into a popularity fight instead of going to court. Otherwise, the presentation is a bit misleading.

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Stop

It's not _that_ kind of "legal"

It's the kind of "legal" US lawyers get a raging boner about, so not really useful to go to court with except if you want to blow a wad of cash or write a book later.

As the Reg says:

"The Apache Software Foundation [...] will finish its relationship with the Java Community Process (JCP) if its rights to a license under the group's governing principles aren't upheld by Oracle."

And in http://www.apache.org/jcp/sunopenletter.html

"Since August 2006, the ASF has been attempting to secure an acceptable license from Sun for the test kit for Java SE. This test kit, called the "Java Compatibility Kit" or "JCK", is needed by the Apache Harmony project to demonstrate its compatibility with the Java SE specification, as required by Sun's specification license. The JCK license Sun is offering imposes IP rights

restrictions through limits on the "field of use" available to users of our software. These restrictions are totally unacceptable to us. As I explain below, these restrictions are contrary to the terms of the Java Specification Participation Agreement (JSPA) - the governing rules

of the JCP - to which Sun is contractually bound to comply as a signatory."

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Troll

Oracle. The new IBM / Microsoft / Apple.

Delete as you see fit.

The company everybody hates.

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Flame

LoL

Will somebody pass the popcorn, ta.

Crazy Larry and the OSS community were always going to mix just like oil and water.

This sort of conflict was completely foreseeable from the day that Oracle announced they were going to borg Sun.

So much for all the assurances that Oracle made to the EC regarding their careful stewardship of Java, which was the EC's main concern that held up the deal for some months.

It is abundantly clear that now Oracle have got what they wanted they are going to just go ahead and do what they do best which is to toss their customers the bird while bending them over and going at it as hard as possible at every opportunity.

Oracle is such a horrible company. At least MS *pretends* to be all cute and cuddly.

Sometimes.

Oracle just tend to hit you on the head repeatedly while shouting "stop hitting yourself!" and then steal your lunch when they get bored.

Just as well I've given up on caring about this sort of shit. I've already concluded that the world has gone to shit in every possble way, whether it be the persecution of wikileaks by so called "western democratic governments", the financial raping of the man in the street by virtually every corporation on the planetm, the rapid degeneration of presonal freedoms for people living in "free" countries or even the constant attempts to engender guilt in the general public by the climate change ecotards whose primary goal is to make money from this misplaced collective guilt of the masses.

It's all fucked. Everything. The sooner the revolution starts the better if you ask me.

Wow, I didn't start this post intending to have a rant but there you go, I ranted anyway.

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Linux

Playing into Larry's hands

This is playing into Larry's hands. there's nothing he's like better than to see an end to organised scaled OSS projects - removes any threat to his lumbering database cash cow.

The way forward is to ostracise Oracle, MSFT and these other organisations who are closed. Apple's longevity is questionable as ever but it's fair to say that Google could provide the necccessary leadership, alongside Apache and others and don't let the like of Larry, Steve (x2) or others into the fold.

The success of OSS is somewhat inevitable - this just resets things and provides an opportunity to clear the decks of the greedy.

Can we have a new "Larry the devil" icon please.

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Gates Halo

Oracle = New IBM

Go Microsoft and .NET.

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Java != money

Larry, Like a lot of entrepreneurs, looks through profit tinted spectacles. When he looks at Java there is no profit so he can't see anything. To him there is no value in Java so why does it matter if it dies. It's not worth money, it's not worth anything. That's why he can't get on with the OSS community. They point at something great like Apache and he can't see it. He does know what the f*** they're talking about.

He know he might piss off everybody and loose the market altogether BUT after the carnage he might find the gold nugget at the bottom of the heap, the few uses who cannot escape and can therefore be abused for profit.

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WTF?

The crusade continues

Oracle continue in their endeavours to kill Java. Given that was a big part of what they gained from Sun I'm a little confused as to why they feel this will benefit them, but it is unambiguously their aim. Anyone know why?

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Quick, someone call Verity

Wait, she must be celebrating already...

Java is now officially the new Visual Basic!

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