Refugees from a lost civilisation whose ruins and relics lie submerged on the seabed deep beneath the Persian Gulf may have founded ancient, advanced Middle Eastern societies thousands of years ago in the time before the Pharaohs. According to Jeffrey Rose, a Birmingham uni archaeologist, recent excavations and discoveries …
ive always wondered how much of history is actually hidden in the bible. a while back, dureing a rather heavy smoking session, me and some friends discussed the possibilty that the garden of eden was actually atlantis, and as mentioned in this report was eventually submerged and the people left "paradise" to start anew in a much more hostile land. Over the course of thousands of years the story was changed and adapted to suit the currant lawmakers. if this is correct, we might have been right. I wonder what else is hidden in the bible, under all the propoganda and nonsence?
"Inspired by events"
It's fair to say that a lot of the Old Testament was inspired by events - for example the great flood appears in other ancient texts; though I refuse to dignify all the supernatural humbug as "events".
If you want to know more about the correlation between the Bible and history, you could do worse than start with Werner Keller's "The Bible As History" - still in print and available as a paperback from a giant Internet Bookseller everywhere.
And let's not forget...
there's not even any evidence for the Exodus. The Bible is far too unreliable to be a primary source, and until events are confirmed by other means I don't think it's that much use historically except as a culture reference. I think you also have to be careful to assume that because something appears in other religious texts it is true. Remembering that many religious texts share other details which could be interpreted as having simply come from the same source mythology.
A currant lawmaker?
"Over the course of thousands of years the story was changed and adapted to suit the currant lawmakers." I expect that a currant lawmaker has a similar role to a sultana lawmaker (looking after the rights of the dried fruit) or am I wrong?
A currant lawmaker wouldn't give a fig
Presumably this is the source of the various Arab Sultanates?
Re: the Exodus ("And let's not forget...")
I've generally held to the idea that, if Egypt suffered a series of unfortunate calamities within a short period of time that impacted food production -- locusts, insect-borne diseases among the cattle, crop-damaging hail, etc. -- that expelling large populations of foreigners who don't worship the "real" gods (and were probably the ones who pissed them off!) to go fend for themselves in someone else's fields would be a logical food-conservation measure.
...Sort of a "Get your people out!" rather than a "Let my people go!" scenario, but that doesn't play as well in the hinterlands...
But, them, I'm a cynical old SOB...
A primary source would be grapefully received.
beliefs and facts
Dilmun is in fact Bahrain. In ancient times the Babylonians and Indians believed it to be a major gateway to a pleasant afterlife owing to the sweet freshwater surrounding the island. That's why we find over 200,000 tombs on the island of foreign origin.
As for the Garden of Eden, cmon, are we talking history or fiction? This is strictly a Bible story that relates to very wide region from Euphrates to the Ganges according to Josephus.
history or fiction?
over time, history becomes legend, legend becomes myth.
don't be so quick to dismiss accounts of the past just they appear in religious texts.
sounds like its all just one big wheel of time.....
Bahrain is not Dilmun
You seem very certain of Bahrain being Dilmun, despite the fact that it is inconsistent with pretty much all the references to Dilmun in Mesopotamian texts. For example (courtesy of Wiki):
Hymns regarding the Sumerian god Enki of Eridu in Sumer speak of his assaulting and deflowering Dilmun's maidens as they stand by a river bank, he reaching out of nearby marsh to clasp them to his bosom. Of Bahrain, Failaka, and the eastern littoral of Arabia, none possess marshes and a riverbank. Dilmun, furthermore, is said to lie "in the east where the sun rises," a situation that does not apply to the eastern Arabian littoral, Failaka or Bahrain, all of which lie south of Sumer and Eridu.
So, apart from not having marshes and not being to the east of Sumer, Bahrain is a perfect candidate...
"the Tigris and Euphrates rivers are both mentioned"
Ever consider the rivers received their names based on the rivers mentioned in the Bible, rather than the other way around?
Garden of Eden?
OK, maybe not.
Insert your own made up location:
The title is required, and must contain letters and/or digits.
Well I've never found it.
try on females
Let's remember that, at the end of the last ice age -- 12,000 years ago -- sea levels were much lower than they are today (the water being locked up in the ice caps that covered most of Europe and North America). Given the early human tendency to live in lowlands/near bodies of water, that means that many mesolithic and neolithic settlements have been submerged; for example <a href="https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Doggerland">Doggerland</a>, the huge low-lying fertile basin that stretched from between the Wash and the Thames to Germany.
We know next to nothing about the settlements of these lands because their remains have been under water (and silt) for thousands of years.
harry turtledove said...
"Down in the Bottomlands". Harry said it what is now the Mediterranean Sea.
And someone else said the Black Sea.
Same idea, different place on the map.
>Given the early human tendency to live in lowlands/near bodies of water
You mean like most of the world's major cities? That would explain a lot about 'city folk' :)
Doggerland was actually less of a low-lying, fertile basin, more an enormous but very secluded car park.
No one mentioned
David Gibbons yet.
Hvase they found the Zero Point Energy source and grav drives yet?
@AC Are you American?
They have! Sadly, they burnt out the ZPM opening the 'gate to Atlantis and have failed to cough up any new ones.
Bring on the glowy plastic energy saviour!
Ice Age melt down
This is old news as it has long been speculated that the origin of Sumaria and other ancient places lay out there under the Gulf waters.
It must have an incredibly fertile place with a mild and stable climate for all the millenia of the last Ice Age. No wonder we have legends of a perfect place in our folk memory. It certainly fits the bill for the Garden of Eden.
I surmise that the ending of the last Ice Age was not a gentle drip by drip affair, but rather a number of catastrophic ice sheet collapses. Low lying land caught by a one or two metre sea level rise would soon disappear under the waves. An ice sheet collapse would probably trigger major climatic events to go along with sudden sea level rise.
These events would have been extremely stressful to cultures used to millenia of peace and plenty. Hardly surprising that we should have ancient memories, as legend and myth, of drastic events like expulsion from perfect places and Flood Myths.
When remains of ancient cultures are found beneath these waves, perhaps people will have more respect for our ancient legends and myths. These were probably eye-witness accounts of events far more disastrous than our present global warming scares.
Re: Ice Age meltdown.
"I surmise that the ending of the last Ice Age was not a gentle drip by drip affair, but rather a number of catastrophic ice sheet collapses."
No need to be so cautious. I think the idea of such events in the Great Lakes area of Canada is fairly mainstream. It's all thousands of years before recorded history, but *not* before the first "cities" like Jericho, so it is perfectly plausible to imagine a continuous aural history from that time, eventually being committed to "clay tablets that happened to survive", which is simply *our* definition of recorded history.
Well well well
Who else but The Register could possibly provide such an unrivalled combination of Playmobil re-enactment, PARIS-based tittilation and aeronautical lunacy and journos who care enought about obscure stuff to know that to leave out the Dilmun-Bahrain connection would have been to miss half the fun of the story... as well as in depth IT coverage (occasionally).
... and, of course, readers who quote Josephus.
Trebles all round!
PS If scientists get to be good old fashioned Boffins here, how about a suitable Reg-style epithet for archaeologists? Bone-botherers?
Re: Well well well
"PS If scientists get to be good old fashioned Boffins here, how about a suitable Reg-style epithet for archaeologists? Bone-botherers?"
timescales are phenonemal ...
So all of *recorded* human history can be streched over ... 10,000 years (being generous).
Our species is 12,000,000 years old ....
How many civilisations could have risen & fallen in that timescale ?
Our species is NOT 12,000,000 years old...
From wikipedia ("human" article) "Anatomically modern-appearing humans originated in Africa about 200,000 years ago, reaching full behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago."
So you're out by a factor of 60...
Re: Our species is NOT 12,000,000 years old...
Nonetheless, time for the Reapers anytime soon then, eh?
Anatomically modern Homo Sapiens are only about 200,000 years old...but I believe that the Genus "homo" is at least a million years old. I seriously doubt that we only reached "behavioural modernity" 50,000 years ago, however. I'd be willing to bet a fairly large sum of money that timeframe is closer to 100,000 years.
I guess the question is “what is human?” Genus Homo? Homo Sapiens X? Only Homo Sapiens Sapiens? What about our descendant sub-species? When Homo Sapiens Sapiens fragments once more into Homo Sapiens Sapiens and Homo Sapiens Novus, will Homo Sapiens Novus be “human?”
I vote that anything of genus “homo” be called “human.” After all, there’ sreasonable evidence that some of the other subspecies (Homo Sapiens Neandertalensis) may actually have been smarter than we are. (Although less capable of spamming babies and climatic adaptation: thus their extinction. Well, unless you are a believer (as I am) that the last remnants of Neandertalensis were likely absorbed into the invading Homo Sapiens Sapiens populations.)
(Storytelling ape, thank you Terry)
There is _nothing_ submerged under the Persian Gulf.
I would advise closer study of the other literature available at hand.
The Pnakotic manuscripts are wrong! I would also add that the G'harne Fragments are a clever hoax. There is NOTHING there of any value or relevance to humanity.
Just leave the area alone!
where do you work?
There is quite likely a metric ***-load of oil submerged under the persian gulf. There's only one way to know for sure...
Where I work...
Nothing more, nothing less.
And that is _all_ we do at our shop, contrary to popular speculation.
Nothing more to see here, move along.
Persian Gulf ?
I know where you mean 'cos I am an old man. And the CIA currently call it the Persian Gulf.
The Times Atlas of the World, 1983 edition, labels it The Gulf .
Locals prefer the Arabian Gulf .
There is politics in every name.
There is politics in every name....
What, even Godalming?
How about Staines?
Staines on Thames - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-11665197
"played a not dissimilar role"
Are you suggesting that the Bible "story" was lifted almost complete from an older religion? Heretics!
Odd that there's no mention of the epic of Gilgamesh here....
Where are the aliens?
It's always about now that we get told that actually aliens are responsible...
Of course it's Aliens! Didn't you watch the documentary with Nicholas Cage: "Knowing"?
...Is actually far worse than that.
Oh the horror, Oh the huge manatee...
We are not ready for the truth. I would advise no further looking.
@ Further reading...
Better than that book is "The unauthorised version" by Robin Lane Fox.
"There is _nothing_ submerged under the Persian Gulf."
Or rather, there is, but the Benthic Treaty with Blue Hades means that getting it could be a terminally bad idea. (Read "The Jennifer Morgue" if this passed you by.)
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