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back to article Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle

The Apache Software Foundation – one of tech's most influential open-source groups – is closer to quitting Java's governing body after losing a stand-off vote against Oracle on Java. The Reg has learned that with 75 per cent of qualifying Java Community Process (JCP) members having voted on whether to ratify Oracle's proposed …

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Blimey

I didn't expect them to win but I didn't expect them to lose THAT badly.

cannot let ethics get in the way of money money money eh JCP members?

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Grenade

WOOHOO NO MORE JAVA!!

Wow, Oracle is about to discover just how heavy a dead white elephant really is without its one single remaining life support frame removed!

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FAIL

Fuck Oracle

Just fork Java and let the best implementation win.

Nail #2 in Oracles coffin.

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Bah!

You mean like MS did with J++?

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Linux

FORK FORK FORK FORK !!!!

FORK FORK FORK FORK!!!!

FORK FORK FORK FORK!!!!

Please Apache, make your Java implementation, change the name to Juno or whatever clever open source name like JINOJ (Juno is not Oracle's Java), build and add a java-to-machine code compiler to the mix, and market it as an open source Java implementation. Live your life and forget about Oracle.

Thanks.

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Acronym

The acronyms are usually recursive so it would be:

JINOJ - JINOJ Is Not Oracle's Java

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Anonymous Coward

will be...

Interesting to see how things go.

Is this the death knell for Java ?

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Probably

It really depends on who people see as more vital? Oracle with their databases, or Apache with their various servers and projects.

Unfortunately Apache is tech-level and the decision makers have probably never heard of it, Oracle can get access to the boards; so Oracle will probably win.

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FAIL

Oracle are really making themselves hated

I have a feeling that Oracle are making sure that no one dares to do anything to them. Java ME is pretty rubbish, why they bother with it, I don't know. I have a feeling that they are worried about competition. I am thinking of moving away from Java, despite having done so much. I am sure universities will also have to think of using other languages to replace Java.

Oracle, you have destroyed the reputation that Sun had. You ruined OpenSolaris, OpenOffice and now you are ruining Java. I am really worried about MySQL.

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Badgers

Making themselves hated?

ANd here I thought they already WERE at that level of 'love'.

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Grenade

COBOL

I was going to say that Java is rapidly becoming the enw COBOL but that's not even true - with the discrepancy between the rate at which servers get recycled and the rate at which the JVM get's updated, I think Java's got about 5 more years before you can only run it reliably on legacy servers.

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Well D'UH!

"Oracle - despite its talk of community and of moving on - will be seen as pushing a roadmap that serves Oracle's interests more than those of anybody else"

Oracle is a large corporate entity.

Large corporate entities want to create shareholder value (in fact it is their obligation).

Shareholder value does not come from being nice, but by putting their own interests before anyone else's.

I really don't understand why anyone is surprised at this.

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Paris Hilton

Shareholder value

Shareholder value on the short term, perhaps. Shareholder value on the medium and long term is affected by soft things like perceptions. Companies don't try to outdo each other on their green credentials because they want to be nice. It would behoove Oracle to think about their geek credentials as well as their quarterly profit.

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SRS
Stop

Java isn't dead yet

Regardless of the amount of foot stamping from Apache, Java isn't going to die.

Java is a lousy client-side language - always has been - but that gap is admirably filled by C# for fat clients, and filled by any number of Ajax-based toolkits for web front ends. But on the server-side, there's just too much code out there. Companies across all sectors, who generally use Java for all new server-side development, are probably taking comfort that Java is now owned by a single company with a lot of cash and a future. Neither of which could be said about Sun. If Oracle truly have destroyed the reputation that Sun had, then surely that's good news for Java: Sun was a tired, directionless, lost company. It had its chance, it blew it.

What will change is this: Java will no longer be seen as fashionable.

All this will truly mean is that the vast hoards of parasitic bloggers, who claim to be thoroughly on the side of open source, yet somehow find little time to actually deliver anything of any worth, who recycle each others sad, tired views, never having the imagination or intelligence to add anything new, who've spent the last few years rehashing the same old dull arguments - these people will simply have to go off and find something else to drone on about. Good riddance. No-one cares; you're not wanted here in the real world.

The rest of us with jobs where we have to produce something that works will just carry on using Java (and C++ and C# and Python and perl and VB... and...) until something truly better comes along.

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Don't entirely agree

"Companies across all sectors, who generally use Java for all new server-side development, are probably taking comfort that Java is now owned by a single company with a lot of cash and a future. "

Whilst in a lot of instances this is generally true I'm not so sure it's the case when the owner is Oracle. Every organisation I've worked at since leaving uni has balked at the fees Oracle charge. Ellison didn't get that yacht by being his customers' best buddy with a penchant for charity when it comes to licensing and support. Most would regard them as thieving bastards.

As for the language itself, given its maturity, I'm not sure big company ownership is required. There are plenty of major companies out there happy to use open source projects like the Apache web server, perl, python, and RHEL. Admittedly these won't be supported by forums (obviously in the case of RHEL) but ownership of the product isn't an issue either - you are free to choose your provider for Linux, Perl, Python etc.

As you say, its a dog on the client where C#/C++ will reign and how much more key work is needed on the server that, say, IBM or the like wouldn't do to fulfill their own needs and pass on much like Red Hat contribute to linux?

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"Java will no longer be seen as fashionable."

I dunno... Android's fairly in the fashion at the moment and gathering momentum.

I say give Oracle just a little bit more time to reconsider its approach. I dunno 3 months more stick waving?

If it still proves recalcitrant, fork Java, imho. Take it where it wants to go, call it something else if needs be, and leave oracle to do whatever it wants to do with its version. Competition could be good here.

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Boffin

Access to testsuite crucial

Harmony will have a struggle to maintain quality until an automated and extensive set of tests are developed, and these won't be the same as the Java testsuite, though they would do better to ensure both Java and Harmony pass the same tests other than where a test reveals a Java version is clearly buggy.

Java language fragmentation is now inevitable. You could well argue that C# is an earlier instance of this, given how Microsoft getting caught on the Java license straightjacket they agreed to forced them into developing a me too language.

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Anonymous Coward

Sumatra?

Or maybe ramalan ? or maybe anak ramalan? (OK, I got bored and started googling Indonesian dictionaries for prophets, seers, and other people of Delphi)

@Llanfair: "Oracle, you have destroyed the reputation that Sun had. You ruined OpenSolaris, OpenOffice and now you are ruining Java. I am really worried about MySQL"

Please don't worry about MySQL, it's a poor use of your time worrying about a foregone conclusion that Larry will mess it up, possibly by trying to merge Oracle XEcrement with MySQL..

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Shotgun, meet foot

Oracle is trying to strongarm its way into the mobile market, where it has no presence.

On the server side, enterprises will continue to use Java, with or without ASF, and most will feel more confident with Oracle behind Java.

On the mobile space, however, Oracle is irrelevant, while ASF/Harmony is not, especially with all the hype around Android.

If ASF/Harmony and Google/Android fork away, who will care about Oracle's Java for mobile?

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@Barracoder

"I was going to say that Java is rapidly becoming the new COBOL..."

So the great majority of reliable, working, production-strength applications depend on it, do they?

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Bah!

Time to learn Python.

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Is Oracle the new Microsoft...

...no, that's Apple's position, Oracle are more the new Nazi on the block. I hope they die when Java becomes renamed & MySQL becomes something else & Oracle have nothing but their own shit on their own hands. And then fuckface loses his yacht...

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Pint

Java was already in trouble

Java was already in trouble. Oracle doesn't seems to get that Java been open source is not the problem, but to how to make profits with him.

One big problem is marketing, another big problem is Technical.

".Net" has done very good improvements, And the current Java framework requires a total rebuilt from scratch, instead of dumb patches. Sun didn't wan't to affect existing apps. / users / customers, but.NET is taking away new apps. / customers (even existing ones?).

We need a completely new Java Virtual Machine that supports many of the stuff that .NET does, without patches.

And more marketing, improve relationship with developers & community.

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