Feeds

back to article Oracle Java submission hastens Apache showdown

Oracle is not altering course on its Java roadmap, hastening a final showdown with open sourcers at Apache. On Tuesday, the database giant submitted four Java Specification Requests (JSRs) for Java Standard Edition 7 and 8 for approval to the Executive Committee of Java's governing body, Java Community Process (JCP). The JSRs …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.
FAIL

Oracle taking SCO's place ..

as most hated tech company real fast . They choose to go to courts and go against the grain of the whole ecosystem by themselves. Stubbornness looses clients.Just a shame. SCO has tried tactics like these and they got high disapproval throughout. Why companies want to commit the hara-kiri on the public place like they do is beyond me. One does not attract bees with vinegar. Healthy companies listen to their customers and users to develop together a better product. Oracle tries to ram junk down everyone's throat and bully their way. Sorry .. but to us all it's evident. They will loose more in the long run .

12
3
Anonymous Coward

Oracle is evil

So much for Larry wanting to be IBM. The customer revolt is starting to accelerate and you can see this by the adoption of POWER7 to reduce Oracle licenses.

Big Ben

0
0
Boffin

shirly thom mithtake

>Google's Android uses a virtual machine built on a subset of Harmony

"Android Runtime

Android includes a set of core libraries that provides most of the functionality available in the core libraries of the Java programming language.

Every Android application runs in its own process, with its own instance of the Dalvik virtual machine. Dalvik has been written so that a device can run multiple VMs efficiently. The Dalvik VM executes files in the Dalvik Executable (.dex) format which is optimized for minimal memory footprint. The VM is register-based, and runs classes compiled by a Java language compiler that have been transformed into the .dex format by the included "dx" tool.

The Dalvik VM relies on the Linux kernel for underlying functionality such as threading and low-level memory management."

2
1

Title...

I don't see how your description of the Android Runtime contradicts "Google's Android uses a virtual machine built on a subset of Harmony".

I don't know enough about Dalvik to know if it really is based on Harmony or not, but your post doesn't say anything about it either.

1
0
Grenade

Go for it ! Sue their pants off !

So that this flea-riddled mongrel of a language can finally die.

5
5
FAIL

Epic, EPIC Fail

Mongrel of a language? Know how many modern technologies are blatant copies of/based on Java? C#? Cocoa? .NET?

Do some research, saves making a massive twat of yourself. Better still, just pipe down altogether.

4
2
Alien

Java copies C# these days, bro

Annotations anyone?

And it *is* a mongrel language that isn't fully object oriented and full of irrelevant low-level crap (short integers? Strings and regular expressions having no syntax to support them? Why?)

Oh, and why the hell does everything have to be a noun? Why is String final? Why does IBM's offering come on multiple DVD's (Oracle's probably does as well these days).

Plus the bugfest that is being able to call class methods from inside an instance with no syntax to differentiate between them.

2
2

Good luck Apache!

Though the odds are against you, I do hopeoracle give Harmony the license.

0
0
Dead Vulture

Java is now officially boned

It will leave the world without any "write once, run anywhere" language. Well, until Google Go arrives or Mono gains traction (although I would be deeply worried about action from MS if it ever gains usage beyond the Linux world).

This fight between Oracle and Apache will also allow MS to make massive gains if they play it right. "Your site is in Java? ZOMG! Look, those wing-nuts can't even agree on a spec or who owns it! Have you seen APST.Net MVC? Or our .Net Click-Once? And we're cross-platfrom like Java *cough*"

IIS, of course, does not run on Linux; so expect to see a dip in Linux servers as well. Less Linux servers means less support from hardware OEMs, less client devices as a side-effect of that; the virtuous cycle for MS just keeps going.

Which database does Oracle think will be backing all these new implementations?

4
1

This post has been deleted by a moderator

Anonymous Coward

It will leave the world without any "write once, run anywhere" language.

Python ?

That is all.

5
3
Vic
Silver badge

Boned...

> most of the key components of the .NET ecosystem, including C#

> the language are recognised international standards.

According to Microsoft, they are patent-encumbered.

Thuis means that, if you live in a jurisdiction that supports software patents, you *can* write your own code to implement these standards, but you *cannot* distribute it.

> ...can be deployed on Linux using Apache and Mono

Mono is a litigation trap. Microsoft could - trivially - announce a patent licence for Mono that would dispel all worries about whether or not MS will eventually sue over its use. They have repeatedly refused to do so - issuing, instead, a ***time-limited*** promise not to sue if you get your Mono from Novell.

Mono is dangerous. Microsoft could make it safe. They refuse to do so.

Vic.

4
0
Thumb Down

Python? Hardly

Python is spiffy for it's targetted audience, but python on windows can be...painful. And you want to do GUI work?

I'll use mono before I play that game again.

1
2
Silver badge
Boffin

Yawn...

Look, Java isn't boned or going anywhere.

The interesting thing is that Google claims their JVM is based on Apache, and thus its clean.

Apache says otherwise... that Google's JVM isn't based on their code.

Oracle says... tough shit, its on a mobile device and its a ripoff because Google doesn't want to pay for licensing Java ME.

Oracle wins, Google pays out, then Oracle and Apache can talk.

The problem is in Apache's Open Source license. Derivative works (all derivative works) are fair game. Its really the anti-license. So if Oracle says ok... Apache gets certified for SE, anyone can then take it and put it *anywhere* so that Oracle loses mega amounts of money on Java ME. (Which is why Sun left it out and forces everyone to license it on mobile devices.)

Now do you start to see the problem?

Apache is plain stupid for threatening to walk away from the JCP.

Its a bluff and if they actually do it, then the only ones to lose is Apache.

4
4

This post has been deleted by a moderator

Linux

Correction

"Apache says otherwise... that Google's JVM isn't based on their code" - not entirely accurate. Apache has only said that the evidence submitted in Oracle's patent infringement case against Google does not include Apache Harmony code. It has not said that Dalvik or Android's SDK are without Harmony code or code derived from Harmony. Just want to help keep things accurate.

...but I do agree with your points about Apache licensing, and Apache's choice to stay or walk. Personally I think Apache would be better off filing a lawsuit contesting that Oracle has a legal obligation to offer the TCK according to the legally binding commitments it has made. Then we'd know for sure whether or not Harmony was real certified Java. But even then, patents are whole other ball game, and since nothing is released under GPL3, Oracle has given no patent licenses - explicitly or implicitly. Basically Oracle stands to make many many millions of $$ from this.

Interestingly, Google's best defense may be that Android is independent code and not a Google product, hence the lawsuit is filed against the wrong plaintiff. Oracle would then need to take aim at HTC, Motorola, etc - in a similar way to Apple. http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/apple-vs-htc-a-patent-breakdown/

1
0
Silver badge
Grenade

Clearly you don't get it.

If Apache walks away from the JCP, does this mean all of Apache's Java based projects will cease to exist?

Bzzzt. Sorry wrong answer.

If Apache walks away from JCP, does this mean that Apache's Java based projects will cease to get enhanced and supported?

Yeah, you guessed it, the answer is still no, they will continue to grow and be supported.

Taking Hadoop as an example.. too many people and companies have bet their company on the code.

StumbleUpon, Yahoo!, Facebook, Cloudera, Twitter, etc ... all rely on Hadoop as a core component of their companies offerings. They all have people who are contributors to the code set. If Apache were to walk away from the JCP, will these companies toss out Hadoop? Really don't think so. Especially Cloudera who's business model is based solely around Hadoop. So the Apache projects will live on. As you so readily point out, Apache's model is based on voluntary contributions of code and its in these companies best interest to continue to voluntarily maintain the code.

Now, lets say you're right. Just for the sake of argument.

All of Apache's projects are well under Apache licenses.

Suppose Apache walks away. Oh no! What will Oracle do?

Hint: They'll pick up the code, and maintain their own in house release.

Oh and guess what. They'll re-license it as their own and it will then be proprietary, or under GPL if they so choose.

So even if you were right and Apache does walk away from everything Java, it only hurts Apache.

Oracle is calling their bluff, and IMHO it was a weak bluff and a stupid one on the part of Apache.

Maybe you should pay more attention to game theory?

2
1
Silver badge

@ Kevin

Yes, I stand corrected. You are right, Apache only said that the offending code wasn't based on their release. The key is that the code examples (and I'm sure Oracle will find more) are enough to condemn Google.

I do disagree with your theory about Google's defense. Google created Android and its too late in the ball game to try and say otherwise. In hindsight were Google to have help create a company that developed Android and set it up as a separate company... that would merely slow Oracle down and Oracle would have had to sue the shell company first and then Google.

If/when Oracle is successful against Google, they could then sue the Moto and HTCs in the OHA. Those cases would never go to court because the members of the OHA would rather settle than fight a losing battle. Note: Depending on the licensing agreement, they could in fact sue Google if their agreements contain any sort of indemnification language.

1
1
Silver badge

What could Apache possibly lose?

"Its a bluff and if they actually do it, then the only ones to lose is Apache."

What could they possibly lose? The only things they get from being in there is a say in the decisions related to Java roadmaps, and a way to get licenses easily. Now Oracle has made abundantly clear that they won't listen anymore, and they refuse to grant licenses, ergo Apache doesn't benefits from being in there. On the other hand, having Apache in meant a lot for the open-sourcers and largely contributed to the success of the language. If Apache leaves, that's largely gone. Also it's bad for the image of the language, which future appears fragile (and which looks more like a lock-in).

If anyone loses, it's certainly not going to be Apache, simply because staying would not bring them anything to begin with.

"Suppose Apache walks away. Oh no! What will Oracle do? Hint: They'll pick up the code, and maintain their own in house release."

Even if they did (which they probably won't as they clearly have no interest in it) that would cost them money. Unless they found a way to make developers work for free.

"game theory"

Game theory doesn't explain how working for free for Oracle and giving them support when they fail to uphold their end of the deal (trying to publicly humiliate you in the process) is a good idea. Can you spell it for me, again?

Would YOU do free work for Oracle knowing that you'll be denied the right to use the tool you built?

1
0
Silver badge
Linux

Fork...

@Anonymous Coward

There are two outcomes out of this:

1) Harmony is granted a license

or

2) Harmony forks

Harmony can fork and nothing will happen, most FOSS software that depend on JAVA will continue running happily on Harmony (or OpenJDK for that matter), and Harmony will keep improving and maturing like it has done in the past.

What I see weakening is Oracle's position. Not Apache's.

2
1
Happy

Apache should do what MS tried and failed to do.

Apache should fork Harmony and bring out it's own JDKs. Eventually they should aim to make it non-compatible with Oracle. If they could get MS (J# anyone?) on board so much the better.

3
2
Coat

Easy now with your wishes here, mate!

Inviting Microsoft on board is deadly.

0
0
Silver badge

Right-o

But unless Oracle puts a lot of effort in pushing Java (which doesn't appear to be their plan so far), the language will lose most of it's open-source supporters with the departure of Apache. Of course the current java developpers will stay onboard for a while (at least the one-trick-ponies), but who in their right mind will commit to long-term Java projects now? Sun's strategy was to spend little ressources on Java by having open-sourcers do the grunt work. If that goes away, Java is pretty much dead in the long run anyway (again, assuming Oracle don't commit significant ressources to it).

Just look at which projects use Java: the bulk of it is open source. The most prominent monolithic -hence difficult to port away- would be OpenOffice, but Oracle managed to piss them off big time. There are a couple commercial things (like Jgraph) but they are quite niche. And if there is something open-sourcers can do, and can do well (appart from forking), it's porting code.

1
0
Anonymous Coward

Architect

Python it is.

Use Python as a full-blown OO language for all your component development.

Your preferred OS should be Linux.

Run your back end on PostgreSQL.

For quick, simple web-apps use Grok or Django.

For more complicated use Zope.

Never look back.

1
0
Anonymous Coward

Python

I've been porting my Java stuff to Python (mostly on my free time) ever since Oracle bought Sun. Almost done, and looking back I ain't.

0
0
This topic is closed for new posts.