back to article So did Windows Phone 7 'bomb in US'?

The Windows 7 phone seems to have met with a lukewarm reception in the United States. Despite the huge amount of promotional activity and media seeding, Microsoft only shifted 40,000 handsets in the first day of sales in the US, according to unnamed sources supplying unverified data. Thestreet.com is quoting that figure from an …

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Coat

"Anonymous source"

Yeah... anonymous sources are always on the money. They told us a bunch of stuff that turned out to be true in the past... oh no, wait, that was named, credible sources. Anonymous source means "our source wasn't credible enough for us to put his name in, so we printed what he said anyway in the hope of attracting some publicity".

Since it's pretty clear that retailers have sold out of the top WP7 phones (e.g. try ordering the HTC Mozart in the UK, or the HD7 in the US (not sure if it's sold out in the UK too)) it seems unlikely that the true numbers are anything like that low (unless the networks woefully underestimated demand).

EIther way, it's hardly a comment on the success of the OS. As Wired pointed out in an article earlier today, if you look at the numbers from the original Android launch (c. 100,000 devices on the first weekend (i.e. 2 days) 40,000 in one day really isn't very far behind...

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Wii effect

It's easy to sell out when you don't buy in many units. Given it is a new OS and Android, RIM, Nokia and Apple are popular I would imagine retailers were pretty cautious with their stock levels.

It's similar to the Nintendo Wii, it wasn't expected to be a big seller and stocks were limited for quite a long time. This added to the hysteria as a product you can't get which is also is seen to be selling fast gets people curious.

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Anonymous Coward

RE: "Anonymous source"

Plus, comparing sales of 40k of a new product line to the iPhone's 600k or Android's 200k per day figures is a little unfair as both those products are already well established.

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Boffin

@Giles Jones

"It's easy to sell out when you don't buy in many units"

Your comment is partially true, and it would be relevant to this discussion, except that we don't actually know how many units were available in the first place (unless we are all supposed to place our faith in this "anonymous source"). So until someone in the know releases some actual hard numbers, I am going to suggest that people reserve their judgement (though obviously the usual crowd of El Reg trolls won't do that...).

But it's also partially untrue - it's only "easy" to sell out if there is real demand for the product. If nobody wants it, then whether you have a limited supply or not is irrelevant. The point here is that clearly more people want WP7 phones than there are WP7 phones available.

Just my 2p.

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Can't find one

I have been trying (not all that hard) to have a play with one of the new Win7 phones. Still no luck so far, after trying just about every phone shop in 2 large UK cities.

Obviously this is only anecdotal, but no-one had even a display model. So they either sold so well that they sold their display models, or....

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Anonymous source means etc.

No it doesn't Anonymous in this case because they were disclosing information they weren't supposed to reveal.

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Boffin

@foo_bar_buz

That is one possibility. Another possibility, is that some publicity-grabbing journalist thought, "I know, let's ride the tide of anti-MS feeling in the media and grab a few thousand extra readers, by making up some numbers that tell the iOS and Android fanbois exactly what they want to hear."

The trouble is, we don't know which possibility is true, and that makes the figures completely unreliable. Give us the data and we'll believe the story. Until then, take a peek at the (much more balanced) article at Ars Technica (via Wired):

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/windows-phone-7-already-doomed-dont-let-early-sales-fool-you.ars

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Anonymous Coward

Microsoft are probably playing it safe

Given the disastrous Kin launch I doubt they produced huge amounts of the new phones. I expect much of the sold out issues are due to low production volumes

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re "Anonymous source"

if the original Android did 100,000 in it's first 2 days, that is saying something since there was absolutely no advertising of this outside of the tech press. Nothing like all the Windows Phone 7 ads I've been seeing in print and on TV.

I think the Droid _really_ did well on it's first day or two also and that one was _very_ well advertised.

So 40,000 on its first day does say something about how dis-interested the public is with either this phone or another phone OS. iPhone and Android fill the needs of most and it seems Microsoft is getting some of its own. People know iPhone and Android and they know others have them so they follow what others are doing. "Windows Phone 7, what's that" and is it a Droid or iPhone?

BTW, I've had people tell me I should have got a "Droid" when I have my Nexus One out. I got a chuckle from that and straightened them out also.

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Anonymous Coward

Next of kin

Phone 7 is the next of kin.

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Gates Horns

Fixed

"Some of us are old enough to remember when Microsoft was the good guy, fighting against the mammoth IBM"

You mean "shafting" the mammoth IBM, as per most Microsoft "partners." Microsoft has never been the "good guy."

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Anonymous Coward

Blinkered?

"(Apple- child labour, extreme arrogance, censorship, abusively long working hours, toxic components, abysmal recycling record, zero philanthropy, frequent lies, refusal to honour legal obligations in the case of faulty products, and so on and so on)"

And you're saying Microsoft doesn't do any of the above?

Really?

Are you sure?

Blinkered... that's what some people are.

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@ AC

Wow - take chill pill...and I'd try and get a bit of perspective if I was you.

ie have at look at Apple's competitors - they're not exactly shining becons of integrity, environmental awareness or legal compliance either.

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Unhappy

and here we have an example...

...of someone who believes everything they read, and more so assumes that Apple's competition is different from that.

Fact: Apple is one of only a few companies that not only does on-site inspections of their provider facilities, but they do both scheduled and random inspections, have an accountability statement with heavy fines, PUBLISHES their findings openly, and has terminated numerous vendors based on those findings prior to press releases about them.

Fact: the "chemical" issues (n-Hexane I'm assuming you refer to): that is in fact NOT even banned here in the USA. http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/n-hexane/recognition.html. It has been the choice of some apple suppliers to switch to or from n-Hexane, as chemicals are available and vary in price, and sometimes this happens between inspection cycles and the provider is lax in providing appropriate ventilation.

Fact: Apple finds children in factories regularly. 14 and 15 year olds are found occasionally, through apple's inspection processes. It is BANNED, but in some cases not illegal in the countries in question. These are 3rd party facilities, that signed and agreed to standards tey did not uphold. on finding this out, those companies were fined by apple or lost their contracts, and the underage employees were terminated. Sony, HP, Nokia, and many more do not perform regular audits for child labor. They demand no kids, but have no enforcement in countries where such is not illegal. Apple admits it, and stops it, so you hear about it, the others are silent... Who do you trust more?

Apple's green record. For 4 years, they have been the single most green company in manufacturing of consumer electronics. Prior to that they were very gren, but simply because they failed to provide that information in a format Greenpeace liked, they got poor ratings. They were compliant, and documented it, but not the right "way" so they looked bad in Greenpeace's numbers. As for recycling, that's on the consumer, not the parent company. They have a recycling program, but it's not free. bfd.

Hours? Apple limits all employees to 60 hours max, and mandates overtime pay for all employees working over 40 hours in all countries. Even US law doesn't go that far. My own employment is under less strict terms than Apple's. "fair" wages are also enforced (well above minimums).

Warranty? They HAVE honored the warranty and legal obligations on ALL of their products. Just because they want to take time (a few WEEKS) to officially confirm a defect is real and warrants a recall or warranty extension, you want to give them shit for it? After a few weeks, or a few months, they have confirmed nearly every reported defect, fixed it, extended warranties, and more. Has Dell done the same? nope... in many cases courts were called into action, and INVESTIGATIONS were held. no fines issued, no improper actions found. In some of those cases, a recall was never issued, and ruled correct, one did not have to be. I got a $200 check from apple for a product I owned that i never even filed a claim on, and it was NOT a settlement check, it was simply a "value refund" and it came with a 3 year warranty extension on top, as they had identified a potential fault effecting the life of the product. No battery issues with apple devices have EVER come back proven based on design issues, only based on Sony's own recall of batteries.

Censorship? That applies to control of free speech, not leaks and product announcements. "Do Not Talk About What is Not Yet Released" is not only a solid policy, it's SUPPORTED by the courts, aggressively in many cases.

For ANY of the faults you mention, which were trumped up by the news, and in many cases turned out to be FUD in the first place I can name 5 companies that hev bee brought up on charges and PUNISHED for the exact same thing. There's only so much control Apple can have over it's suppliers. They exert IMMENSE control, far in excess of their competitors using similar facilities in similar nations. ts a fact of our economy, we simply can not ask Apple to change unless the REST also do. Holding just them accountable without the rest is BULLSHIT, especially when their record is cleaner and they hold stronger accountability.

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Stop

Bilgepipe v. Anonymous Coward

You both have valid points, but Bilgepipe gets the upvote for not being *off* point. This ain't about Apple.

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Grenade

Where is that exactly?

> We find that hard to believe of a country where ordering a sandwich involves a detailed 10-minute exchange.

Huh? Care to elaborate?

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Happy

ok

regular or long sub? What bread- brown, white, seeded? what meat? (list of what's there in front of you) Take extra meat for a dollar more? what salad items? Pick any 5 or have the lot for a dollar more, sauce or dressing? jalapenos? Care to take 2 subs for 4 dollars extra? have a regular coffee for a dollar more? decaf or regular? turn that into the meal time deal with a doughnut for another dollar? what kind of doughnut.... (customer collapses from starvation)

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Stop

Subway

Well that's my experience... all I wanted was a sandwich and when it got to "Do you want Salad" after I'd already said I wanted lettuce i was ready to club him to death with his own sub roll.

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Anonymous Coward

Explanation

Subway:

- Choose sandwich

- Choose bread

- Choose toasted, just the meat heated or neither

- Choose which and how much of each from the large array of extras

- Choose zero to many sauces

British sandwich shop:

- Choose sandwich

- (If they actually even make the sandwich there) choose bread from the array of choice { "white", "brown" }

I still haven't fully adjusted to the notion that I can order a dish at a restaurant and substitute or remove (usually cheese) something.

I raise my glass of warm water with two ice cubes and say "Cheers, El Reg!"

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Go

When I get asked ...

... I look the half-witted pseudo-human in the eye and say, "I've given you my order" and say nothing more. If the idiot keeps on asking questions I either ask to see the manager or simply walk out. It's my money, it's my decision and there are too many low class joints all over town to put up with inane script recitation. And I always enjoy it. We old fart retired and socially retarded folk are like that ... yes we are.

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Unhappy

sigh

"Apparently Americans don't like having too many options either: "In the phone world, our surveys show that there should be a choice between A or B," the analyst explained."

We wouldn't want anyone to make an informed decision now would we?

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Silver badge

Yo can always make an informed decision.

You will be informed that you decided either A or B

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just like their politics

no stinkin' Three Party system here

Morlocks or Eloi ...takes ya pick

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FAIL

Lacks encyption - DOA?

I've seen reports on the 'net that Windows Phone 7 lacks support for encryption - means it's dead on arrival as far as the company I work for is concerned. Our shiny new smart-phone policy clearly states that encryption must be available and enforceable.

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I would prefer the phrase

Devices with working encryption (of course I'm not thinking of the Apple VPN for example)

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policy?

How about federal REGULATIONS.

HIPAA, SOx, SAS, STIGs, and more. If your communication includes SSNs, Account numbers, PII, PHI, PCI, and more, that communication when going over open networks, must be encrypted. Most companies fall under this but don't even know it.

There are 2 federally approved phone systems currently, assuming DOD Stigs apply directly, or similar restrictions:

- 1 is WP6.5, but ONLY if running a local encryption app ($79 per handset), an expensive and specific 3rd party central server platform to manage devices, connectivity to an Exchange 2003 or 2007 server, and only if the device is owned by the company (not the user), and is approved by an auditor to be used.

- The other is Blackberry, under much of the same conditions, using both BEZ and Exchange 2007 as well as a 3rd party additional server platform.

iPhone is very close to meeting the goals (actually it already has, without reqiring the 3rd party server, one of Apple's goals), and is simply pending confirmation in the next revision of the STIG Mobile Device Security update.

WP7 has a LONG way to go. Sad seeing WP6.5 for a long time was the ONLY approved system (Obama forced BB to be added). Android can not meet the requirements in its current incarnation, nor can WebOS, maybe in Android 4...

Apple iOS is already heavily accepted as a business device. It easily integrates into Exchange without added servers, can be easily remotely managed, can be remotely tracked, can be remotely wiped, includes encryption without 3rd party apps, and is offered on business phone plans. With WP7 off the list, and RIM flailing to keep it together, I think we'll see iOS added to the STIGS in 2011 and it will become the go-to business handset.

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Encryption works...

...it's just relative. Windows Phone doesn't provide OOB encryption for users, but the support is there. Class libraries on the phone include algorithms for AES, HMACSHA1, HMACSHA256, Rfc2898DeriveBytes, SHA1 and SHA256. I've been using them and they work fine.

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Black Helicopters

There are some problems with your post. The title is too long.

-- "Some of us are old enough to remember when Microsoft was the good guy, fighting against the mammoth IBM."

Some of us are old enough to remember when Google was the good guy, fighting against the mammoth Microsoft.

Some of us are old enough to remember when Facebook was the good guy, fighting against the mammoth Google.

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Young enough

Gosh you young ones, some of us are even old enough to remember when the evil Microsoft and IBM shafted CPM. Now that was a really sad loss. Imagine how different the face of computing would have been had CPM been allowed to continue.

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@Herbert Anchovy

Some of us are old enough to remember fighting against the mammoth.

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Where's me zimmer...?

BDOS ERROR ON DRIVE A:

Ah, happy days!

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Silver badge

@Roger Jenkins

Some of us even remember when UNIX was new, and all microcomputers were 8 bit and minicomputers were 16 bit (and some mainframes had 24 or even 36 bit wordlengths).

Seriously, if (Intergalactic) Digital Research had persuaded everyone that MP/M (the multitasking variant of CP/M) was the OS to use, then desktop PCs would have been able to multitask from the word go. And that would have really changed history. But remember, even CP/M was not original and was superficially a rip off of RT11 on DEC PDP11s, even down to the device naming and PIP.

Still would have preferred a UNIX derivative on the desktop, even if it had to be crippled by needing to run from floppy disks (UNIX V6 on PDP11 circa 1975 - Kernel less that 56K, ran [just about] on systems with 128K memory, able to multitask, multiuser by default with recognisable permissions system). Definitely doable, although reliable multitasking without page level memory protection would have been a challenge.

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Boffin

MS always evil

MS was always evil. They killed CP/M. Then MS killed the DOS clones.

Apple was the one that started fighting IBM, but the closed ecosystem paired with a couple of stumbles in the early PC days meant that the PCs took over the market udring the 90's. Of course, those of us old enough remember when Apple was good in making easy to use OSen and *didn't* have rabid fanboys, or one man imposing his views on the entire company.

IBM has somewhat turned into an "open-source fighter", so it isn't really seen as evil anymore... unless you're stuck with their propietary stuff on mainframes. The other thing that has happened is that most of the IT firms have turned evil: Google, Apple, Oracle, Facebook... so now there isn't "fighting the mammoth" but more like mammoths fighting each other. :)

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And some of us...

Are wise enough to remember that there are no good guys or bad guys in business, just faceless* corporations clawing at each other to get to the top, then stomping on everybody else to stay there.

*A PR mask does not count as a face.

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Anonymous Coward

Parked next to mine...

ABEND

Where's the "Old Git" icon?

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Linux

Still would have preferred a UNIX derivative on the desktop

Well, that is why I use and like Linux.

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Boffin

That even predates the terror

of 'R Tape loading error'

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Linux

@Lars

As do I (almost no MS software in sight on MY, rather than the rest of my family's systems), but think how different it would have been if that had happened in 1982!

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Windows Phone 7 will fail because it is ugly

From: http://www.theoligarch.com/windows-phone-7-geeky-flop.htm

Windows Phone 7 is yet another disaster from accident prone Microsoft. Do not expect it to revive either Microsoft's mobile market share, or Microsoft's share price. Analyst Carolina Milanesi at Gartner is wrong to describe Windows Phone 7 as a "good effort" that will probably founder. This article explains why Windows Phone 7 has all the buoyancy of a lead balloon.

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lead ballon?

Anyone else seen that episode of Mythbusters where they go all origami with some lead foil and helium and.....well you can guess the rest

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Jobs Halo

Oh

I love the last line in that article

"Owning Apple shares is not about Apple[s] greatness, but rather [the] staggeringly incompetent competition."

Priceless!

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Paris Hilton

@lead balloon

Complex, held together with tape, leaks all over the place and goes down sooner rather than later?

Paris because well..err..ummm

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It's a re-run

It feels a little like a re-run of the Palm Pre launch. A decent OS/hardware combination, big marketing budget.. and customer indifference.

Having a decent product doesn't mean that people will buy it. It's going to be down to how well Microsoft and partners can promote the platform to people who are choosing (at the moment) between the iPhone and Android.

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It's ugly!

The UI that is, never used one, but seen demos etc.

And I thought S60 was dated!

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WTF?

I agree. There is a definite rodent-like smell to the story

One point alone, I quote: "Thestreet.com is quoting that figure from an unnamed analyst, ". "Unamed analyst"? We all know from experience that these people _love_ getting their name in the media because it promotes their business. The fact that the person concerned remained anonymous indicates that he/she could not actually justify their conclusions or there is some negative spinning going on - or both. Personally I think that whilst the _UK_ figures indicate that WP7 is doing at least OK it is _way_ to early to say anything positive or negative with regard to sales figures.

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Totally agree.

The number of people who are over-eager to jump the gun on El Reg forums is astonishing.

No hard figures = no reliable conclusions.

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Anonymous Coward

I'm curious

Does this apply to the stereotyped American you've created in your mind or are you an equal ops bigot?

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Really?

You don't think it has anything to do with the fact that jumping from the old handsets US users were stuck with, to the iPhone, was like going from a old Ford Cortina (whaddayamean a poor analogy - they both had retractable aerials!) to a new high-end Audi?!

The iPhone had a revolutionary effect in Europe, (no point in arguing - just look at all the manufacturers scrabbling to catch up with multi-touch etc), so in America, where they were condemned to fairly ancient handset technology, the jump was huge - no wonder it sold well, particularly while Android etc weren't ready yet.

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