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back to article 'Big Four' lose filesharing case against Irish ISP

A major ISP in Ireland has won a landmark illegal music downloads case against the ‘Big Four’ record labels today. UPC defeated Warner Music, Universal Music, Sony BMG and EMI Records in Dublin’s High Court, which decided that a “three strikes and you’re out” ruling could not be enforced in Ireland. The record companies had …

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Thrilled

I'm thrilled at the verdict.

I'm a UPC customer (largely because they are the only supplier of 30Mb connections in my neighbourhood). I don't pirate music- largely because I have any CDs I am interested in listening to- and I have zero interest in most of the output of the past 15 years- but I don't see why I should be held in thrall to the music industry....... Well done UPC for fighting against the unfair demands of the big 4- the other ISPs who rolled over were spineless in comparison.......

Next step- bring Irish law into line with European law.......

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@ Shane

"Next step- bring Irish law into line with European law......."

No.. the next step should be to bring European Law into line with Irish Law! lol

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Piracy endangers creativity???????

Get real your honour you have been buying way too much propaganda by Big Media. Record companies have been operating with the same income model since they were formed and have been extremely slow modernizing.

The last 2 revolutionary changes were: CD and premium mp3's (download) and this basically since the 1980's. The real threat to creativity is the media mastodonts who opposed to look for talent rather sign the latest xfactor or <enter first initial of your country>Got Talent clones in the country.

Very few talentscounts visit gigs they rather sit on the fence and chummy up to chainsmoking mr nasty and flashy "media is there to push my bandwagon and my talentless idiots" Irishman and their 2 good looking desk candy bimbo's...

In the 80s they said "hometaping is killing music" and yet they became humongously massive media conglomerates who discarded the scouts who didnt bring them the latest girl group or boysband or RnB band or gangsta rapper.

Wake up and smell the roses! The manufacturing of cds has gotten cheaper and cheaper yet prizes generally remain on a simular level as several years ago. In the case of downloads you can only download either poorish quality or usage limited files against the prize of a full cd (if you buy 15 songs). The one thing that feeds piracy is the bottomless greed of the bean counters

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Grenade

And before that

And before that they said Music Radio would kill the Music industry (who's going to buy a gramaphone record when all the music is free on the radio?), and told its artists not to allow their stuff on the radio.

This leads me to the logical conclusion that clearly the Music industry ceased to exist decades ago. The folk that claim to work in it are either lying, or a collective dillusion of us all.

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MCG
FAIL

CD prices

Checking on HMV just now, many new CDs are going for £8.99. I can remember 20 years ago paying £10 for CDs - therefore they are cheaper in real terms, since everything else (including wages) has risen more than a bit over the past two decades due to inflation.

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@CD prices

Ah, you're making the mistake I made recently of comparing mail-order with bricks & mortar.

I found that BluRay I wanted was ~£15 on HMV's online store (about the same price as others), but when I popped into my local branch it was £25 so I didn't bother with it.

I didn't pay too much attention to the music, but I did see a stand full of "only 12.99!" CDs, which suggests to me that the same thing happens on the music side.

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"It is destructive of an important native industry"

Was he talking about the output of Warner Music, Universal Music, Sony BMG and EMI Records?

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I support a 3 strikes and your disconnected law.

However, as a quid pro quo, if the record companies prosecute 3 people who did not pirate their music, they get disconnected from the internet.

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RE: ...disconnected fron the internet

No John, the record companies are completely disconnected from reality, and living in a fantasy world.

They have no clue how to use the internet to their advantage. Fscking dinosaurs.

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heh

ouch!!! lol

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Anonymous Coward

Multiple rhetoric failures.

A "conduit principal"? What's that?

Anyway, I still wonder what the judge's been smoking. How blocking "three strikes" undermines an industry whose core business appears to be sueing people is a bit beyond me. But he doesn't stop there. "Ruins the ability of a generation of creative people"? How does he figure that? Have any "creative people", Irish or otherwise, gone bust, starved to death, or even just found work in a different industry, because the lack of "three strikes"? Pray tell sir mister justice sir, please show us the facts you base that off of. Or does "proof" mean something entirely different for judges than for those judged?

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Pirate

Conduit Principle

The Conduit Principle is the idea that ISP's are merely conduits for the 0's and 1's that make up the information you download over the internet. They can't regulate what you see, nor can they stop you seeing something. They're role is basically that of a pipe between you and what you want to see on the internet.

Originally, this legal distinction came about to protect ISP's in cases where their customers had accessed illegal material. If they were not just a conduit of information, but rather an active supplier of that information, then every ISP in the world would become jointly culpable for anything dodgy that their customers accessed. One of your customers accessed terrorist material? Then the ISP is also guilty as they facilitated this access.

Unfortunately, the Big 4 don't seem to have read any of the excellent texts by Michael Geist (I'd recommend his work for any aspect of Internet Law), and by forcing ISP's to police for copyright infringement they have effectively ended this principle of ISP neutrality. If the British (rather than the Irish) approach is allowed to continue, we could see the situation described above, that where ISP's become jointly liable for material accessed using their service, and they will be prosecuted if they won't (or indeed can't) identify the customer who was responsible. The implications of that are, well, pretty scary

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Well done Ireland

Common sense prevails, now if we can only get mandy's law removed.

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Good for the Irish

As a former, very contented, Irish resident I say "Good for you". Tíocfaidh ár lá. About time the rule of law trumped the wallets of big business. Personally I still prefer to have a tangible and concrete item in my hand i.e. a CD. Stuff your "licensing" malarkey and sell the stuff . After all, Big Media seems to have forgotten who actually pays the bills. Our day will come and that's not a political statement, just the truth.

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Headmaster

Tíocfaidh ár lá.

Our Day Will Come!

has come or will come?

Maybe.... only our rivers run free...

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Éirinn go Brách

Cut off my internet for "alleged" copyright infringement?

Sure! - as long as I can cut off your nads for "alleged" rape.

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WTF?

Are they taking the proverbial or what

"ruins the ability of a generation of creative people in Ireland"

Lets have a look at Irish musical creativity over the last few decades. Feargal Sharkey, U2, The Pogues, Enya, B*Witched, Daniel O'Donnell, Westlife, Boyzone, The Corrs.

I think they've got that above statement all mixed up, it should read as:

"Ability of creative people in Ireland ruins several generations"

.... and that comes from an Irishman.

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Hooray!

for the irish lawyers, what a great win against the stupidty of the record labels. Hopefully the rest of Europe can use this win against similar lawsuits

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Good

"3 strikes" is quite senseless..... I mean, by that logic, why not cut off their electricity? That would stop those naughty pirates too. Cutting their internet connection is exactly as silly.

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FAIL

Hey, Warner Music, Universal Music, Sony BMG and EMI Records

Suffer in ya jocks!

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tee heeh

anything about paying taxes in there? I know bono isn't a big fan of it.

I haven't 'purchased' music in almost a decade and I could care less.

I bought dvd's, I coulda d'l'd them but they aren't all up my rearend about piracy like the music industry has been.

chasing after the disabled and poor for $20 will only go so far.

not to make this all about bono but he is one of the major idiots in all of this. how's that tshirt business going that you outsourced to save money?

perhaps you can get invited to the whitehouse again, that's what we really need another tax dodger telling us to pay more.

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@james woods

"I haven't 'purchased' music in almost a decade and I could care less."

I think you mean you 'couldn't ' care less. If you could care less that means that you care to some degree.

I wish people would get that one right, it really irks me...

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Anonymous Coward

Excellent result, but....

...I don't think we've heard the last of this case just yet.

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Megaphone

'3 strikes and your out'

Unpopular comment coming up.......

I like the 3 strikes. If I had a choice between receiving a blackmail letter from ACS:LAW and their like or getting a warning letter to stop what I am doing, I would much rather the warning letter.

There would have to be safeguards around the process like how long your warning lasts before you get a second warning. 3 warnings over a year would be perfectly acceptable. How long the warnings are recorded would be a consideration as well.

Faced with that or the ambulance chasing solicitors. I know who I would much rather face off to.

If the 3 strikes law is thrown out that just leaves the ACS: Laws to fill the vacuum left by lack of the policy. And that is one bunch of clowns I would much rather avoid.

I don't have the moral high ground as I have been known to 'dip my wick' occasionally but the time should fit the crime and €5000's fines are not that. Especially when the bulk of the money goes to the blood sucking leeches ACS.

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I know who I would much rather face off to.

What makes you think you would not get both?

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irish donkey

The French three strikes... Strike one, delivered by email. Does not apparently need to state what the complaint relates to or who the complaining copyright holder is. Nor is there any real procedure to ensure anybody important actually read this email (a kid could delete it before parents get home). This will entail your connection to be monitored (inspecific, monitored how?) for infringement activity for a period of six months. Technically if you watch a music vid on YouTube, it is probably an infringement. You have no right of protest against this. Will this lead to...

Strike two. Your ISP will be obliged to serve a letter, containing the same information as the email. Will it be registered, or just "a letter from the ISP"? Again, with no requirement to state what and who, you don't have the option to contest anything, you just need to bend over and take it up the back passage. The monitoring for a letter will be a year. Again, no right of protest.

Strike three. Disconnection. Was to be the media companies instructing your ISP, but now they have to sweet talk a judge (in your absence - the charge of proof is on the alleged infringer!). The term of disconnection is to be any period up to a year - during which time you will be obliged to continue paying your subscription AND you will be blacklisted to prevent you taking a different subscription. All of this does not prevent the copyright holder going after you for copyright infringement in the traditional way. In other words, not only will you be paying for a service you aren't getting, but you can be punished twice for the same thing.

This is in addition to the questionable fact that "illegal" downloads should be permitted in France as we pay a levy on blank media. So thanks to this new piece of legislation (which pisses all over the French constitution - how can you have your internet connection revoked with no recourse to justice by a copyright holder under no obligation to identify themselves and the content alleged to have been downloaded?) we are effectively paying a tax to counter an illegal act. Way to go Sarko&co. I'd like to see this stand up in the ECHR.

To give you an idea of the mindset behind this, and - one might surmise - how corrupt the government is: the Minister Of Culture said "censée envoyer 10000 mails, 3000 lettres recommandées et 1000 suspensions par jour". It kinda leaves you speechless, doesn't it?

But it gets worse. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadopi and cry that such a piece of crap actually made it to be legislative.

Are you STILL sure you support the idea of three strikes? We are talking about an industry that is many sandwiches short of a picnic with enough money to bribe those influentials who are most friendly to their outdated business model.

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Anonymous Coward

looking forward....

... to another patronising campaign led by Bono and Paul McGuinness on how the artists will no longer be able to afford personal jets because of the greedy ISPs.

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<Sarc> Hardly likely

More likely is Bonio will set up a not-for-profit pressure group which will market itself as a charity and take charity contributions before spending all the money on Jets, expensive presents and avoiding taxes.

While bringing pressure on ???? who was he supposed to bring pressure on. Ah that's right people that avoid tax... like HIM.

BONO I'm disgusted by you. ex-U2 fan

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Paris Hilton

Dumb insolence

In the army they used to and for all I know probably still can do you for looking uppity. If they didn't like your expression, or the look in your eyes, or anything at all about you, they charged you with "dumb insolence". And a good thing it was...

Throwing out this crap about ISPs being 'mere conduits" is a step in the right direction. Treating "perceived insolence" as the crime it is will solve our problems with bad apples. We need to be able to trust those under us to serve cheerfully so we don't have to worry about ending up with a knife in our backs.

Now to get rid of the idea that phones, buses, planes, roads etc are mere conduits... Anything subversive said on a bus must be considered the responsibility of the bus company, ditto roads, ditto phones.

Not to mention the terrorists manufacturing paper - iffy books? It's not enough to skewer the author or the publisher, we need to discourage the paper purveyors too! (And ink manufacturers...)

And all these failed marriages must be laid firmly at the door of the churches that sanctified them, or the local governments that gave them the stamp of approval.

And our eyes are not mere conduits for what passes through them! Pluck 'em out!

And the air these anti-social elements and terrorists breathe doesn't make our job any easier, either, for that matter...

So much to do, so little time to do it...

(Paris cos she's no "mere" conduit...)

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