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back to article Miliband retains Labour line on DNA and CCTV

The new Labour leader has expressed support for DNA in policing and the role of CCTV, while criticising the party's 'casual' attitude towards civil liberties. Ed Miliband, giving his first speech to the Labour party conference on 28 September 2010, said of civil liberties, "too often we seemed casual about them. "I won't let …

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WTF?

Still doesn't quite get it does he?

Has it dawned on the latest career politican who has never done a productive days work in his life, that the major reason that they were voted out was the micromanaging, idiotic, anal attitude to controlling the public.

If they really want to come back as a real political force they need to push for removal of all of the draconian neu arbeit laws.

However as this would be seen for what it would be, political self serving opportunism, so I don't think even they would be that stupid.

On the other hand

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Winston Smith

Yes, absolutely. 1984 was written about the excesses of socialist interventionism; nu Liebour have lived up to and in some cases exceeded Eric Blair's nightmare dystopian dream of the UK. That these people cannot understand how invasive and illiberal they have become contraindicates voting for them at all.

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FAIL

"Say hello to the new boss..."

"...same as the old boss...".

David Milliband should be quietly pissing himself laughing, watching his brother perform like a pre-pubescent student union rep.

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Coat

Thats the trouble

When trying to find the right tone you have lumped poor 'pre-pubescent student union rep's' with a politician.

I would of gone 'watching his brother perform like a' chimp with a tie as i think chimp's would see the funny side, union rep's probably not so much.

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Ok, so they improved the leader

but he's making his speech about the casual attitude to civil liberties from the podium of the party that voted for all those measures. His improved attitude is incompatible with being a labour member, I don't think he'll last.

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Big Brother

His lips are moving........

Why the futt don't we rid ourselves of the all these useless, lying bath stewards.

See you on Nov 5th - V mask and cape.

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Regime Change

Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss....

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Commutation in the algebra of semiotics

When all your life you've been used occasionally to seeing men in monkey suits in silly films, it is a refreshing change surely to expect to be seeing a monkey in a man suit in real life on a daily basis.

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Lying arsehole

"I want our party to reclaim that tradition."

Labour have never had a tradition of liberty in all the years that they have been in power. At each stage they have become authoritarian, possible to counter accusations of being 5th columnists (vis-a-vis communism) or of being soft on crime. In reality, with the exception of gay rights, they have always when in office, pursued the most draconian and repressive of policies.

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FAIL

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

Their civil liberty blunders are what they do with DNA and CCTV, you can't have one without the other.

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Big Brother

Ed in the sand

New shiny packaging but same rotten contents.

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They didn't 'become too casual'

They were actively attacking them!

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Civil liberties?

Haven't people worked out that under Labour you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent (and even when you do that, you can't claim back the costs [and no, this is not a fiction])?

Labour also ensured our armed forces had inadequate kit and started a plethora of PFI/PPP schemes that will see the pretty decent training they get now, ruined by firms whose primary goal is money and not ensuring the safety of this nation (think what you like about military forces, but it's a crap job and the very least you can do is provide adequate kit [helicopters, ballistics vests etc] when you send people off to do a potentially lethal job. 'Elf 'n Safety, innit?)

Whilst the ConDems having ownership of "the British tradition of liberty" is worrying, Labour having ownership of it gives me the screaming heebie-jeebies.

No one did more to reduce our civil liberties and enact some of the most stringent interpretation of EU law than Labour. Even the Germans are willing to tell people where to get off over EU Arrest Warrants. But with our Labourised "British tradition of liberty" we allow people to be dragged off to countries with extremely dubious legal practices.

---

[note: I am not a Toffee-nosed nor a Fence-Sitter supporter]

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trashing of liberty

"under Labour you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent", or as Labour regard it 'getting off this time on an unwelcome technicality'.

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ID Cards

On BBC Radio 4 this morning he said that he agreed with the coalition plans to cancel ID cards because it would save a lot of money. However, he didn't give away anything about his opinion on the principle of ID cards.

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Big Brother

I love the internet!!!

See

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/edward_miliband/doncaster_north

Voted very strongly for introducing ID cards.

and if you are total bored...

http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/40208&showall=yes#divisions

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FAIL

Same old <add expletive of choice> ...

Sounds like Miliband is picking the least favourable policy dicisions from the last 10 years and dropping them like lead balloons, but keeping the ones they've found to be more favoured by their target electorate - who knows what he actually thinks?

And another thing,

Why does it take an election (and leader election) for a party to change thier position on policy that was simply not desirable by the majority of the public?

I hate politicians

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Heart

CCTV is good

I hate to say this as a staunch Civil Libertarian but I feel frankly put, there have been so many crimes, murders, rapes, major serious crimes solved by CCTV in pubic areas that we should leave it be. I'd put forward it's use might be viewed as a bit excessive in certain locales, but it has helped more than hurt and I don't see anything Orwellian in the proper use.

Give an idiot an idiot-proof mechanism and they'll balls it up of course, oh dear, that's the current quango-loving gubmnt.

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Really?

Pausing briefly to snigger at the thought of "CCTV in pubic areas", have there really been many cases where crimes have been solved by CCTV? I'd love to see a decent source for that.

Certainly, many people are of the view that CCTV merely displaces criminal activity to areas where there is no coverage. According to a report in the Telegraph last year, a Met report stated "For every 1,000 cameras in London, less than one crime is solved per year."

Meanwhile, a report this January in the Standard claimed "Met figures show a 71 per cent drop in the number of crimes "in which CCTV was involved" from 416,000 in 2003-04 to 121,770 in 2008-09. The number of these crimes which led to a charge, summons or caution fell from 47,000 to 23,000.

The proportion of all crimes solved using CCTV in London fell from half in 2003-04 to one in seven in 2008-09. "

So, I think many would dispute an assertion that is has solved so many serious crimes that we shouldn't be worried about privacy implications

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Simply not true

The vast majority of CCTV is not of a clarity that can be used in a court of law.

More-over, CCTV is touted as a *preventative* measure. If it's used to solve a crime, it didn't prevent squat and in most of these cases it's other evidence thats used to convict, not the CCTV footage.

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Big Brother

more cctv drivel

of course the useless tossers who like cctv claim the cameras are a preventative measure. it's bullshit. they started this lie when the statistics started to show cctv had negligible impact on prosecution and conviction rates. so their earlier lie was on dodgy ground, even with "be a grass" - I mean "crimewatch" - to soften public opinion in favour of cctv.

the crime that would have taken place where cameras are visible just moves to places where they're not - eg from city centres to the suburbs.

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re: CCTV is good

... says the anonymous wanker.

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@ AC-with-the-heart

Proof.

Link to a story, just one, where CCTV *alone* is the sole factor in a rape, or a murder. I don't mean cameras in a bank, I mean those ones stuck up all over town centres. The resolution is crap, half of them probably don't even work, and (at the moment) I don't think you can convict a person based purely upon a fuzzy video image. So tell me, have the cameras really provided benefit?

Of course, on the other hand, as a staunch Civil Libertarian, surely you can see the problems of pushing crime from city centres (with cameras) to suburbia (without cameras), not least of which is the wider catchment which will be more difficult to police (if it even happens at all).

Congratulations. For middle class England, we could actually build an argument that all those cameras have caused many MORE problems than the vanishingly small number solved.

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Anonymous Coward

one case

I remember one case where CCTV was crucial in convicting a man for murdering his girlfriend.

However he didn't

It was on TV some time ago, the filth got a yank "expert" in who testified that a bit of light at one moment that had gone the next moment was the girlfriends bag.

After the man spent several years in jail (suffering several violent attacks in which his arm was broken during one event) until he was acquitted of course the filth and "expert" still stand by it, but anyone that looks at the cctv can tell they're talking crap (apart from a jury overwhelmed by an prosecution experts techno babbel - and the CPS not allowing the defence to provide expert witnesses)

Oh the expert still gives expert advice although the man that taught him says he's a charlatan but then that's the law in the west, get an expert that agrees with you even if they're liars, the jury isn't allowed to do a background check.

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Big Brother

They're still missing the point...

Nu Labour seem not to have twigged that those policies and their implementations were, and still continue to be, so "anti-citizen". They, clearly, are unable to see that the ever-deepening invasion in to people's lives was causing more and more people to not just feel but actually become 'criminalised'.

All reasonable notions of a free society; of innocence being assumed before guilt were tossed aside in a seemingly very casual manner and always on the pretext that "If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear" - True enough, but the danger to the individual exists where the yardstick of what is private and what is deemed to be "fearful" and so has to be "unhidden" was/is constantly being re-interpreted and individual freedom and responibility being eroded.

Worst still, Nu Labour's anti-citizenship approach was, and looks like it continues to be, goverance through Stazi-like control, implemented through fear - I, for one, was so glad to see tha back of that government and it's anti-person politics and at the same time, so sad that as a one-time supporter, was unable (having tried) to find a champion within that party that would stand up for the liberal stance and individual freedoms that they used to hold so dear.

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FAIL

Seriously?

"I won't let the Tories or the Liberals take ownership of the British tradition of liberty," he said. "I want our party to reclaim that tradition."

The Labour Party are the ones who did the most to erode the British tradition of liberty!

This Miliband is just like the other Miliband, and just like all the other fuckwit wannabe fascist dictators. Come back when you have the interests of people at heart. Until then piss off back under a stone.

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Happy

Well....

...he seems to be getting SOME of the point. Whether it sticks or not is another matter...that said, the idea that there IS an argument over the NIR seems to have been put to bed.

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Expect more casualties

So their removal of liberties was not 'wrong' or 'unjustified' then - just 'casual'.

If labour ever get back into power we can expect more of the same, just in a less 'casual' manner then... maybe even more systematic perhapse ?

*face* *palm*

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WTF?

@"I won't let the Tories or the Liberals take ownership of the British tradition of liberty"

WTF! ... It was Labour that spent over a decade undermining our tradition British liberty!

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Hey give the guy a chance

He's still new and all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSN7vZZZa44

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WTF?

@John Lilburne:"Hey give the guy a chance" ...

WTF! … You expect a new figure head leader to change Labour?!

We have had over a decade of control freak attitudes (and increasingly Orwellian attitudes) from Labour. Not just Labour leader #1 or Labour leader #2, or whichever figure head in Labour you wish to point at. It was Labour *the party* as a whole that behaved in rampantly control freak ways *relentlessly for over a decade* resulting in them clamping down and utterly undermining privacy & liberty and therefore also freedom.

Yet this new Labour leader has the gall to refer to “tradition British liberty”! … I feel the past decade of Labour rule has done more to destroy tradition British ways of life than any government I have ever even heard about let alone experienced in my lifetime!. Labour also greatly helped the economic crash by not policing the greedy banks whilst also pissing away half our gold reserves at a knock down price and then to make it even worse they also pissed away hundreds of billions of our money! (yes our money!) to then prop up the greedy bankers resulting in us now being in more debt than we can hope to get out of for years! We now face years of hardship due to Labour mismanagement of the entire country and yet the people hit most by this disastrous mismanagement are the people who are most traditionally Labour working class voters!!! … Proof if ever you needed it that “New Labour” didn't really care about working voters the way the original Labour party did when it was first created! … “New Labour” isn't even Labour!

Yet you think a new leader changes that?! … how short do you think our memories are?! ... you really expect me to trust Labour *ever again* after how they have behaved?! ... you really think a new leader makes much difference to the rampant arrogance and incompetence I have seen Labour commit for more than a decade! … let alone there Orwellian goals I will never forgive them for.. (Plus that is all before you even get into the whole shocking "Peter evil Mandelson" saga which showed a level of jaw dropping political corruption that is beyond belief. Mandelson was twice thrown out of government yet not only came back into power but also within months got into one of the most powerful jobs in UK politics!? How the hell did he do that. He must have huge power behind the scenes in Labour to pull off a move like that, (yet in a Democracy he shouldn't have been able to do that, so WTF are Labour really?!) … so what the hell does he have on Labour to give him that much power to push others aside to gain such power so fast!).

Yet you expect me to trust Labour?!

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I sick of all this talk on the news about Labour

Who gives a $hit. They had their chance and destroyed everything that was any good about our Country. Sold it to the higest bidder.

I would like to see more on the news about ACS:LAW but the national News at 10 don't seemed to have noticed that particular story.

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Flame

me too!

who cares what this careerist identikit nonentity says? there must be a factory in china that churns out these numpties for 10p a time.

both millibands have never done a proper job in his life. they have no chance of becoming prime minister. even if ed/dave/bill/<insert-iname-here> could make the labour party electable. which seems less likely than anne widdecombe starring in a best-selling porn movie.

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Stop

Well thanks a lot!

"anne widdecombe starring in a best-selling porn movie"

You do realise that all over this land there are now men struggling to shake this thought from their minds now you have planted it there?

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Badgers

Thanks for that

Thats the sort of thing that Julia Manning would favour.

(Who? See the porn and sperm donation thread)

*Shudders*, looks for mindbleach, fails and looks for a sharp stick to apply to minds eye

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FAIL

New leader...

...Old new Labour. Nothing like making yourself unelectable within a few days of taking over. The bloody scar of Labour 13 year civil liberties jihad will take a long, long time to fade for a great many of us, and flying the "nanny knows best" flag really wont help.

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The Song Reains The Same

Nu-Labour? Old Labour? Same old sh*t either way despite what Ed wants to claim in his we didn't listen to the core Labour voters speech. The names may change but the song remains the same.

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MJI
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Which Ed?

Ed the duck?

Ed Bol***ks

Oh Ed Millipede who actually is he?

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Sir

"too casual about the liberties of individuals"

It would be nice to believe that they were just incompetent, but too many Labour Home Secretary's have jaded me a bit. This just sounds like more spin.

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I hate having to put a title

Saw an interesting bit in the paper last night, apparently Jack Straw has warned Ed that CCTV and DNA were very popular amongst their core voters, and he shouldn't touch them. Looks like he took the warning to heart.

I'd love to know who these alleged core voters are, though, and why they want to live in a police state.

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Happy

@David Lucke

"I'd love to know who these alleged core voters are, though, and why they want to live in a police state."

Members of ACPO?

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Casualties

"too casual about the liberties of individuals"

And in the process casually mislaid 5 million electoral votes.

Get your crampons strapped on Ed, you've got a mountain to climb.

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Megaphone

CCTV Is Not Good

"I hate to say this as a staunch Civil Libertarian but I feel frankly put, there have been so many crimes, murders, rapes, major serious crimes solved by CCTV in pubic areas that we should leave it be"

Take the total cost of CCTV and divide by number of crimes solved by it.

Now spend the money on real policing and see how many crimes you solve with that.

I think you will find CCTV is a huge, over-hyped waste of money. Of course CCTV solves *some* crimes but the vast majority of cameras don't solve jack shit.

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MJI
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Terminator

Not a fan - actually he is creepy

Something seems odd about Mr Millipede. I do know the unions selected him.

But I just hope he never gets to be PM.

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Joke

CCTV - See/NoSee?

Re: CCTV - if cameras work when it suits the police but don't work when it doesn't, so not both at the same time, is this a reformulation of the Cop-enhagen Interpretation?

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err..

...so we're meant to feel better that you admit that your party basically created the near police state we now live in?

Sorry, you're still the same bunch of pernicious authoritarian wankers you always were.

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Same old Labour then ....

Nuff said.

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Two cheers

Now, if he'd drop his attachment to man-made global warming and carbon taxes, I'd begin to like him...

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Politicians

Am I the only one who finds this influx of snotty-looking, smarmy, youngsters in powerful positions alarming?

I'm not too old (infants school in the 60's) but I really miss seeing people that appear to be older and wiser in positions of trust. Although I am not a labour supporter or voter I think that the early death of John Smith signalled the end of decent politics and the beginning of this sorry state in which we find ourselves - and yes, all the parties are to blame as is the system of so-called democracy we "enjoy".

Maybe if Smith had lived and come to power we'd be living in a far better country?

Call me naive if you want, I don't care; I just know what I'd like to see in British politics.

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FAIL

"Too casual"?

So what you really mean is "next time we won't go for the laid back, force legislation through Parliament technique, we'll just get the Jackboots out and kick in a few front doors."

("But don't worry, if you've got nothing to hide...)

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