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back to article Hillier appeals to transgender community to save ID cards

New Labour never give up. Even out of government, they are still looking for groups of individuals who, they believe, are just salivating at the prospect of the chance to carry a shiny new ID card. The latest group lucky enough to enter their sights just happens to be the transgendered. The Identity Documents Bill, which is …

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FAIL

Total fail!

The proposal fails on many counts.

Not only the 'outing' but also because post transition transsexual people can get their passports and driving licences changed anyway without having to have a Gender Recognition Certificate. All they need is the psychiatrist's letter and current documentation (such as birth certificate etc). So they don't need the ID card.

Now if she meant trans gendered people who vary their gender on a day to day basis they couldn't have an ID card in their alternative gender anyway.

So this proposal was based upon stupidity, ignorance and desperation. Fairly typical of that lot.

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Slight Amendment

Sorry I thought I needed to correct the above, transgendered people can not get a new (corrected) birth certificate without the Gender Recognition Certificate, but you are correct that they can change passport and driving licensee, they need a letter from the psychiatrist's letter and either a statetory Declaration or Deed Poll of change of mane.

Which would mean they would be fully 'out' anyway. As part of the treatment they have to live 2 years in their new gender, before surgery or getting theur GRC, so would only have one ID, so the whole thing is a NON ISSUE!

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FAIL

"but the removal of gender identity from any documents unless it was absolutely necessary."

Um, surely in many cases the name and photo on an ID card would also be indicators of gender.

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So?

That's sort of the point of the suggestion; that it's mostly superfluous information.

(Anyway, in the cases where name and photo indicate gender, that rather suggests the carrier doesn't *mind* them indicating gender. In cases where the carrier would rather they didn't, the carrier is likely to ensure that...)

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Anonymous Coward

A simpler solution

Don't specify gender on identity documents. It's a dodgy concept in any case, thanks to chromosomal abnormalities, etc, etc, and the form of a person's external genitalia is of very little practical use in checking people's identities as people don't (yet) routinely show their genitalia at passport controls and when stopped by the police. Also, the information content is just one bit.

(On the other hand, a person's apparent sex is something that even the dopiest witness can occasionally remember.)

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Coat

Bit late now

"people don't (yet) routinely show their genitalia at passport controls and when stopped by the police."

Really wish someone had told me that earlier, would have saved me 6 months at Her Maj's pleasure.

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Paris Hilton

"as people don't (yet) routinely show their genitalia at passport controls"

You've not read about the pervo scanners then?

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Silver badge

Apparent sex?

I agree with you that the idea of specifying gender (which is not a binary condition) on identity documents is dodgy given that it's by no means a binary condition in all cases.

But there is one point I have to question where you say "a person's apparent sex is something that even the dopiest witness can occasionally remember."

I could introduce you to people whose apparent sex is by no means obvious, either through genetics or personal choice of dress and personal appearance.

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Coat

Imagine the Hilarity...

...when a lady being scanned appears to be concealing 3 WW2 hand grenades (2 'english' type, 1 'german') in her lady kex.

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WTF?

Evidence based?

"Hillier grumbling aloud about the lack of consultation and an evidence-based policy on the part of the Coalition."

So there was lots of evidence that people really, really wanted those ID cards was there?

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Joke

@Christoph

"So there was lots of evidence that people really, really wanted those ID cards was there?"

Well there seems *lots* of evidence that Tony Blair wanted them. And he's a person.*

*And it would seem still the only one whose opinion Ms Hillier cares about.

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FAIL

Fail!

Meg Hillier can fuck right off. I didn't want one of the blasted things let alone two (at the cheap price of 2 for the price of 2 no doubt).

Which minority group will she pick on next I wonder?

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Re: evidence-based policy on the part of the Coalition.

May I be the first to say WOT!!!!!

When did Labour get the bug for evidence-based policy. Unless there is a missing 'lack of' in that sentence?

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Silver badge

Wrong way round

Labour did it the other way, policy-based evidence making.

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Anonymous Coward

Well, she has a point, in a twisted nulabour sort of way

For a modern ID system to be useful it must be able to cope with everything we throw at it, instead of trying to mold us in its ideal image. However, that's far more demanding than a couple clumsy amendments could hope to cope with. So, it is doomed to fail.

That even before remembering all the nasty little details that made us reject the whole thing out of hand in the first place. But, verily, what IS she doing? Does she have some ID card fetish addiction that compels her to trotting it out regularly?

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Do you have to pay twice?

Do you have to pay twice for 2 ID cards?

And how do you prove your trans-genderness?

If it's not hard to get 2 cards, I'd be prepared to do a BOGOF just for the "fun" factor of having 2 different cards.

Some ideas for 2 ID cards :

Instead of sneaking into <opposite gender>'s changing rooms for a thrill, just walk in brazenly waving the relevant ID card.

Skipping the long line for the toilets and using the other gender's.

If you had someone who looked kind of like you (to play the other half in the ceremony), you could probably marry yourself. Maybe your female counterpart could marry someone and change their name, while your male part stays unchanged. You might even find you didn't need to actually marry to change your name, just tick a box on a form somewhere, maybe it would need you both to sign.

Then : Apply for multiple bank accounts in different names.

Fiddle the tax allowance, get double the ISA allowance...

What else "fun" could you do with 2 ID cards?

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Anonymous Coward

Evidence based policy

"The amendment was withdrawn, with Hillier grumbling aloud about the lack of consultation and an evidence-based policy on the part of the Coalition."

This means that Hillier was complaing about the fact the coalition have an evidence-based policy right? We all know what Labours view on evidence is - they fully support the evidence based approach to government as long as they are allowed to commission the evidence supporting their policy and dismess any evidence that doesn't...

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Heh

She cottoned on pretty quickly that you'd spotted her boast. Nice ego-puncturing work, Vulturedom!

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Anonymous Coward

Umm...

You don't transition your gender; you transition your sex. Hence trans-sexual. It is the sex (physical) that is transitioned in order to bring it in to line with the gender (mental)

The person is gender "euphoric," not gender, "dysphoric," because they are that convinced about their own gender that the sex has to be changed to be brought in to line.

To imply that a transsexual person is gender dysphoric is tantamount to saying they are not quite right in the grey matter department (you can easily disprove that ... just take one look at me! Er... um... on second thoughts...)

Kindly slap the politically correct people around the face with a wet haddock.

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Joke

You say beavering away

but as it's a transgender article she'd be just as likely to be dicking about!

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Oi Hillier, no!

We don't want no steenking ID cards or NIR! Geddit?

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Unhappy

Hmmm

"According to Meg Hillier’s constituency site, she is "currently a junior minister at the Home Office"."

Sounds like this horrible woman is about as easy to get rid of as a dose of herpes.

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FAIL

Security?

So because they can't find a way to issue ID that can handle people whose sex is in a transitional state, they propose issuing a bunch of cards to cover all the options? And these are supposed to be able to indentify their holders for security purposes?!

"'Ere you, Mr. Mightbe Terrorist, I need to see some ID"

"Here you are, officer"

"Are you having me on, this is for a woman"

"Oh, sorry officer. try this one instead. Or this one, or maybe this one?"

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FAIL

Can you fail harder?

Her amendemnt was fail in many ways. Keep an ID system that is only needed for a tiny minority of trans people --- those living dual role. So, that it is a guaranteed outing of them as they'd be the only ones with an ID card. For clarification I do know someone living dual role and has got an ID card. Yes, it meant paying twice, and she did have to get a medical report stating her dual role status.

Even with such dual ID cards only one can be used to permit travel to the EU and that is the one that matches her passport. Another major fail of the idea.

And as for the complaints about "evidence-based" policy, maybe that's only because the evidence doesn't support her blinkered view of the world?

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Unhappy

perverse

Get a life Meg.

Trying to commandeer a small minority of people and make an example out of them for your own political gain. You make me want to vomit till my ears bleed.

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Big Brother

I'm not going to be ignored, Dan

Reading this made the the final scene of Fatal Attraction pop into my head....an apparently dead Meg Hillier rears up out of the bath trying to embed an ID card into Dan.

Mad woman.

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WTF?

@"Huppert instantly spotted the logic failure at the heart of Hillier’s proposal"

More to the point, why the hell didn't Meg Hillier spot the very obvious flaw in her own logic!

Also it shows they try to force these things through into law without thinking logically about what they set out to do. So much for judgment yet these people want to run the country!!!

Instead of everyone carrying ID cards, perhaps we should force only politicians to carry the ID cards, so then we can identify and avoid these self important arrogant ignorant people. Plus make it law that they carry ID cards around their necks along with a cow bell. :)

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Coat

Is this women infected

with some kind of mind control parasite? Very little else explains here ongoing desperate pursuit of this policy and hugely expensive dog and poiny show.

The support for killing ID cards across 2 parties was enough to get the first coalition in 70 years elected in the UK.

Mine will be the one with the copy of Greg Bear's "Vitals" in the pocket.

Another book "Nulabor" would probably like to emulate had they known about it.

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FAIL

Fuck off Hillier!

I voted against her in my constituency but the moronic trendy twats in Shoreditch voted her in anyway. Loosers.

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Anonymous Coward

Maybe she should be sacked..

then we could save a fortune on wages, ok not a fortune but every little helps :D.

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Go

must have a title, or something

Surely, the obvious answer is that you get your passport updated to your new name and gender, but leave your driving licence as your old. voila, ID to match any occasion...

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FAIL

As the icon says

So what happens when you drive or fly in the presentation that doesn't match the driving licence or passport?

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WTF?

Um. no

It's a criminal offence to fail to update your driving licence with change of name (and address) details.

So I take it you are suggesting that trans people break the law?

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WTF?

Eh?

Is Meg Hillier trying to get a job working for SCO's legal team? I understand some people have problems coming to terms with change, but she needs to be taken to one side and have someone explain to her that it's over. The ID Document bills isn't law yet but the cards for UK nationals are no longer being issued so it's not possible to get one anyway. Better to explicitly kill it off like this rather than discover too late that the system is unworkable and have it gradually fall out of use.

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Meg Hillier has not left the building

'Perhaps this is not the case – and Ms Hillier is still secretly beavering away beneath their very noses.'

I kind of like the thought of Meg Hillier in the role of one of those Japanese World War II soldiers who carried on fighting for a lost cause decades after the end of all that unpleasantness.

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Anonymous Coward

*Birth* certificate

Read that term again.

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Maybe...

It is time to replace "gender" with "chromosome arrangement", that is either XX or XY no matter what you do to yourself...

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Privacy

Perhaps no-one needs to know our gender AT ALL? ever?

When women were not allowed to vote there was some point, albeight a nasty one, in recording at birth what one's gender was. But in these days of equality, then it should surely be a question one is not allowed to ask, either in the passport office or the job interview.

"What shape toilet did you use this morning?" - Mind your own business!

"How did you vote at the last election?" - Mind your own business

"How do you get your jollies when the lights are out?" - Mind your own business

"Do you support Manchester United?" - Mind your own business

"How did you do in the chromosome raffle?" - Mind your own business

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i'm TG

and this is epic fail.

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Joke

Question for the transgender community

Do you find Meg Hillier appealing?

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Anonymous Coward

Website changed

Well it seems that she is aware of the publicity surrounding her stupid proposal. She's updated her website.

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Black Helicopters

I got that title all wrong.

I thought it said Hitler apeals to transgender community.. Clicked in the hope of another spoof. One'll turn up..

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Thumb Up

I agree with Robert E Harvey

Nuff said.

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