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back to article Linux game-time refined with latest Wine

Wine, the project that lets Linux users run Windows apps within Linux, has released a major update that fixes a number of bugs and includes 64-bit support. Wine 1.2 includes a new set of icons, a number of fixes for video rendering – improving Windows gaming – and better font anti-aliasing and handling of desktop link files. …

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Wine & CrossOver

I think the work that the Wine team is great, for those folks who are interested in moving to Linux but do have one or two apps which they need which do work under Wine, they could possibly get rid of Windows.

Sure there is the argument that rather than use Windows apps on Linux we should be developing Linux equivalents but not everyone who uses Linux is a developer, I'm certainly not.

I also think that the issue with things like Photoshop CS5 is that it's an expensive app and a lot of Open Source developers do this development in their spare time and quite possibly some of them might not have access to Photoshop etc. I think this is where things like Codeweavers come in with their CrossOver programs (which don't just benefit Linux users but also Mac users too). CrossOver can afford the apps like Photoshop which developers can then get working in Wine and CrossOver and then release the fixes back to the Wine community.

I'd say having used the new version of Wine for a couple of days, it's working pretty well (it allows me to use LogMeIn on the Windows build Firefox as it crashes on Ubuntu 64-Bit in both Firefox and Chrome). I also like the new icons too.

Rob

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Headmaster

@Rob Beard

>>>> Sure there is the argument that rather than use Windows apps on Linux we should be developing Linux equivalents but not everyone who uses Linux is a developer, I'm certainly not.

You're Missing the Point. I wasn't hoping that you will write a Linux version of Photoshop. I am hoping Adobe will.

If enough people are using Linux then Adobe might realise they are losing potential sales of Photoshop. So they might then port Photoshop to Linux.

However, if Photoshop can run on Linux under Wine, they might not see the point. They can respond to requests for a Linux version by saying "Just use Wine".

Ditto games, and all the other "must have" apps that keep people on Windows.

Still it is better that people run stuff under Wine on Linux (if they must) rather than on Windows.

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Cynic

We've been waiting for Wine support for the *current* QuickBooks and UPS programs for years.

That's all that is keeping Windows in this office.

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Sage will not port their software until you switch to thyme

http://paythyme.com/FAQ/

Royal Mail's website covered in broken eye-candy, but it does work with firefox.

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Linux

Meh. Emulate the entire machine.

> We've been waiting for Wine support for the *current* QuickBooks and UPS programs for years.

>

> That's all that is keeping Windows in this office.

>

a) There is (or at least was) a web version of Quickbooks.

b) I successfully had Quickbooks running in wine a LONG time ago.

That said, stuff like vmware and virtualbox do a much better at this problem of "running that last kill Windows app". You can just emulate and run and entire environment. You even get some direct hardware support if you need it (AnyDVD).

MSO and CS5 really are not terribly compelling in the "why I can't give up Windows' department.

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Cynic

We've been waiting for Wine support for the *current* QuickBooks and UPS Worldship programs for years.

That's all that is keeping Windows in this office.

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What?

"But given that Photoshop CS2 is over five years old, and looking a bit long in the tooth at this point, it's probably not high on the list of things Linux users are missing. In fact, Photoshop CS2 has little that you won't find in native Linux apps like GIMP or Inkscape."

Do you know anything about Photoshop? As Gimp isn't even up to 5.0 level let along CS2. Even basic, basic stuff like layer groups, layer effects and a usable type tool are missing.

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And

Er Inkscape, ok so it's vector but I don't think you have any right to complain, I don't see a link to your massive investment in Gimp code or financials.

Lots of geedy freetards complaining a lot about features they're too cheap to pay to have made.

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Flame

You have no idea what you are talking about

Be serious. I will pass your total lack of understanding graphics tools. I will try instead to point out a different thing: if I pay i.e. GIMP developers USD 2000 (the price of the CS5 Suite), will they be able to make it functionally the same as CS5?

Of course not. So, that investment would have been lost as I would have end up being no better, still needing to shell out USD 2000 for CS5 Suite, right? So where's the logic to your argument, where's the benefit? Paying for these features to appear in GIMP would cost me (or any other single person) far more, than paying Adobe. I am no freetard, but I am not a multimillionaire.

But, since you are so free with words like "massive investment", maybe you are. Have you, yourself, contributed?

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OK

Clearly the down voters have never worked in artwork, or for that matter any sector where the CS apps are required. If they had they would appreciate how truly useless the GIMP is, and how it just doesn't compare to Photoshop.

Adobe have positioned themselves exceptionally well, Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign have no competition since the buyout of Macromedia and the demise of Quark and Quantel. MMMM.... does that smell like an anti-trust investigation?

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Alert

The real appeal is games

I beg your pardon!

In this household, Wine has value because it keeps alive ancient Win3.1 and Win95/98 versions of programs that have never been bested in terms of interface design. Saying this may cause the collective Register readership to piss themselves laughing, but Lotus 1-2-3 (a Win3.1 version) remains my preferred spreadsheet because of its straightforwardness and ease of use. No version of Excel nor later version of Lotus is as good, and OpenOffice isn't either.

The real question is what Linux versions Wine 2.1 will run under.

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I used 1-2-3

On my old 8086 with 512KB of RAM.

On good days I could get a screenful of cells filled before the thing crapped out of memory.

Then Excel came along and I could get 4 screens of cells filled before running into memory issues.

Never looked at 1-2-3 since.

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Anonymous Coward

Jewel

Excel is the jewel in the crown of MS Office.

No... it *is* the crown. Word, on the other hand, is garbage, and probably my most hated program of all time.

I've just taken a new look at Open Office: Write is worse than Word!

(Someone will ask what justification I have for this: it is the program making up its mind about stuff, Microsoft fashion: you formatted this, that means change that as well. Brilliant. In the 1% of times that I actually wanted the damn thing to change more than the one thing, crap in the other 99%).

These days, I'm just a home user... but still OO is not going to make happy. Personally.

I've still changed to Linux.

I might *just* though, make one final investment in W7 but keep my Office 2000 a it is.

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Linux

Correction

Both the first page of the article and the URL ("/wine_2_1_review/") are incorrect, and to be even more precise than the second page, it's actually Wine 1.2-rc5 (the fifth release candidate of Wine 1.2).

Otherwise, great article and thanks for keeping us posted on WINE development.

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Porting

If I understand correctly, Wine also has a porting function.

If Linux becomes mature enough (in the public eye) to grab the attentions of the Windows software authors of these big packages, then perhaps we will get porting and testing by them instead of this piecemeal effort we get at the moment from volunteers.

I for one applaud the efforts of the Wine guys.

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FAIL

Wine Version?

To the OP: I think you mean Wine 1.2. Not 2.1.

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Visio?

I haven't run across a linux app that can read and create visio diagrams.

Am I missing something? If I'm not, an update to this piece specifically addressing Visio would be of interest, since Open Office doesn't read visios (or at least the variant I use doesn't.)

Similar questions apply to Project.

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Project replacement

http://openproj.org/openproj

Not sure if it has all the features of Project. but it'll open the files at least.

Yet to see anything that'll open a Visio file. There's plenty of diagramming software out there, but not that'll do Visio

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Go

Dia!

Visio? Dia.

http://live.gnome.org/Dia

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won't read visio files

Nothing will, except visio, it's the only reason I have to keep a windows box.

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Jobs Horns

Reads, doesn't write

OpenProj will let me read MS Project files, but it doesn't work very well at all at writing changes out in MS Project format. If they can fix the output export to MS Project file format, the authors would have a good competitor to Microsoft's overpriced product.

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Jobs Horns

Eccch, Visio

Another annoying MS app that barely succeeds at its job. The user interface is terrible, and even contradicts MS's standards for user interaction. I doubt the product has been touched since they bought it, except to obfuscate the file format to prevent anyone from building a competing product. It's way past time for Visio to be replaced by a good cross-platform vector drawing tool.

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WINE 2.1?

I was surprised to read "Wine 2.1 includes a new set of icons."

Later you (correctly) report on WINE 1.2

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Adobe Bridge

Adobe Bridge on CS2 crashed on a regular basis on Windows, so it's not really a data point to say that it crashes under Wine.

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Pint

Games...

...Get a console, job done.

I got fed up upgrading my graphics card and CPU all the time and just shelled out for a PS3 and Wii, which is probably cheaper in the long run than a decent CPU+GPU package.

I'm all in favour of wine development, but like the author struggle to think of anything I could use it for......What do people actually use wine for (Photoshop and games aside) on a day-to-day basis?

Re photoshop - Shouldn't the people in the coloured pencil room all be using macs anyways??

Beer, because it's better than wine

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Consoles

PAH!

Not so great if you like RTS games. Likewise most sorts of "building" games (Railroads, RCT, SimCity etc)

Then there are FPS games. Yes, I know the younguns seem to like the console controls with the autoaim crap but I simply can't stand it.

Nope, IMHO consoles suck. Big time.

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Get a console? Pfft!

Wash your mouth out! Consoles are crap and their controllers are worse. I prefer to game at my desk, with a mouse and keyboard. And I like to play games that have a bit more complexity to them than the average console "action" tripe.

Therefore games are the one thing that keeps a Windows box in my house.

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Orrrrrr have both?

I do get a little tired of this argument sometimes. Console gamers will bang on about PCs being harder to keep up with, PC gamers will ridicule consoles for having crappy controls and (sometimes) dumbed-down versions of their own games. And of course, both camps are right.

So stuff it! I go where the games are. Time Crisis/God of War/Burnout games are on the Sony machines, so I have those. FPS/RPG/Strategy games are on both, but play better on the PC, so I have one of those too. Some consoles have exclusives I want to play, so I'll get those too.

I don't really care about the platform, so long as it's not totally crap (*cough* early-gen 360 *cough*). I just play the damn games and enjoy myself. I play a lot of games, so I have a lot of systems.

I have Linux, so I wanna play games on it.

See where I'm going with this? Quit the blah-blah and get on with the games.

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Anonymous Coward

The year THIS YEAR

The year of the Linux Desktop

C/w Duke Nuke'm forever

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Joke

duke nukem forever

I'm afraid that the Linux version is a bit deprioritised at the moment. We're busy getting the GNU HURD version done first...

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Unhappy

...except if you're a REAL architect

"it's getting increasingly difficult to find Windows apps that lack a Linux counterpart."

Except for modern BIM-based CAD software. Us real architects (we do those big solid things you all rely on - you know, buildings?) are still left way out in the dark when it comes to running Linux.

Wine for CAD - don't make me laugh!

"Users should re-write their own apps....." yeah, see, I design BUILDINGS, I don't code in C# funny enough. I shouldn't have to - the same as C# coders don't need to know building safety codes, how to deal with annoying councils, how to design something that doesn't fall down, become a laughing stock or the worst of all, fail to make money for the developer.

Hmmph. We're stuck with Windows - even the poor buggers who use Apple hardware and use Mac-based CAD STILL need to have Windows installed if they want to be able to send anything to their engineers - EVERY engineering firm uses Windows. Or Catia if they are stupefyingly rich; and even then it won't run on Linux!

Boo, hiss, how come they've invested so much in getting games to run, yet ignore what is likely quite a sizeable market?

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Happy

CAD

CAD bores the tits out of me, I much prefer games :)

Seriously tho` Wine is a miraculous thing IMHO, be thankful of its existence.

Try and worry less about the platform and more about the best tool for the job.

There is a saying if it don't work for you

"You got it for free, you should thank them for wasting your time"

I use XP here BTW, not much wrong with it I reckon, Nothing wrong with Linux either. Between you and me, I`ve given more Money to Linux distro ppl than microsoft ;oP

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Linux

Do as they do for the Linux kernel

Red Hat, Novell, Intel, IBM, Oracle (etc) all contribute to the Linux kernel, and thus get the kernel they want and then carry on competing elsewhere in the value chain.

Assuming that Architects compete on their cleverness in building design, not their CAD abilities, you could all collaborate to design/fund the development of the CAD programmes you really want and have in run on Linux based systems with no more licence fees.

Just a thought

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Anonymous Coward

The building I rely on...

was built in 1886. It will still be standing long after the efforts being nailed up across the road from it are dust.

No idea what it was designed on - some sort of early typewriter one presumes....

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Anonymous Coward

"how to design something that doesn't fall down"

"how to design something that doesn't fall down"

most c# developers need to know how to do that

ba-dum tsh

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Linux

My friend

I have been saying the same for years and years. Still no single version of AutoCAD runs flawless, just having something ancient like AutoCAD 2000/2002, working flawless should be fine for me and I know the same for many people.

Heck, even having Office 2003 running flawlessly could be a great achievement.

The problem with wine is that many of the apps it runs, do indeed run with many small defects that render the apps useless.

On the positive, It is improving a huge lot and very quickly, many not-so-well-known apps lately run in wine like a dream.

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Boffin

CAD for Linux

They're getting there. There's already a working mostly-stable CAD application for Linux called FreeCAD. I used it to design a custom tray for my entertainment kit a while back. Yeah, it doesn't have a lot of the features AutoCAD has yet, but it does look to be a promising project.

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Linux

Chasing the wrong program

Sadly, the moment FreeCAD approaches AutoCAD capabilities, the developers will discover that most engineering (Not Architecture) is performed in parametric modellers like SolidEdge, SolidWorks or (Ugh!) Pro-Engineer. (Or CATIA, if big wealthy Aerospace or Automotive companies are involved)

I never touched AutoCad again after I started working with these. In my experience, ONLY architects still work in AutoCAD. ..And I do design stuff that is slightly more complex than a custom tray...

The penguin? ..because I actually have a fully parametric solid model of him laying around somewhere on my HD.

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Learn to read

"Increasingly difficult"

Does not mean

"Completely impossible"

D-d-d-d-duh.

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"Mostly stable"

Yes, that describes far too many FLOSS applications. I use Linux by preference for most things, but when it comes to things like graphics and music there are no usable alternatives to Windows and Mac proprietary software. The GIMP is nowhere near as usable as Photoshop (I can't say that it doesn't have the abilities, but I do know that many artists and graphic designers haven't been able to find them).

When it comes to composing and scoring music the FLOSS applications are, to be honest, rubbish. One of the major ones refused to run at all on my Ubuntu installation, claiming that "the kernel tick rate is too slow". No indication at all of what a user was supposed to do about that, or what tick rate it might find acceptable (1000Hz? 1MHz?) or even what the current rate was. I'm used to rebuilding Linux kernels but even I had no idea what to do about it (and the next upgrade would have meant modifying anf rebuilding the kernel yet again). Another one looked 'promising' -- but crashed every few minutes.

I even posted on a FLOSS list offering 600 pounds (the cost of Sibelius, arguably the best music scoring package anywhere) for something with the functionality and stability of Noteworthy (usable shareware at around $75). No takers. And I'm not surprised, because to actually do an application like that properly takes thousands of man-hours, proper design with intereaction with the potential customers (not just the geeks who code it), and so needs to sell thousands of copies for cash to recoup the costs.

So -- I use Windows (XP Pro) for the applications which actually get the job done. I don't have a few million pounds (or even several thousand) to throw at someone to write it for me, and certainly don't have the time to write it myself. I advise people whose job involves graphics to do the same.

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Boffin

Bullseye!!!

"...all contribute to the Linux kernel, and thus get the kernel they want and then carry on competing elsewhere in the value chain"

- that is exactly how open source works best!

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Not totally true!

Not exactly ... in my experience (being an Architect) we there's a trend in architecture to use BIM (Revit) and all the construction engineering firms (structural, civil, HVAC, plumbing, etc.) still live in the CAD world.

Well, I say "all" ... all those I came into contact with did. Except some structurals which used MicroStation instead. But isn't that also a CAD?

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Joke

Usefull, productive, informative and otherwise awesome.

This thread will be it.

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Gates Horns

Everything else is just a toy...

...it does go to show how far the world has moved on in the last 5 years - I only have Windows on one machine now, and it is only ever used to play civ or l4d.Now L4d and counterstrike work perfectly on my main machine using Crossover, i literally have no use for Windows. I've got no intention of buying windows vista/7/whatever in the future - I wonder how many people are doing the same?I've been supporting windows at work for 10 years, but I think XP is the end of the road for windows as far as I'm concerned - I've never seen windows 7 and could no more support it than any other civilian....talk about the retraining costs of moving to Linux sounds a bit hollow now doesn't it?

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Wine has huge gaming potential

Steam has just launched on the Mac and is soon to do so on Linux. I would be hopeful that when it does appear it uses some commercial variant of Wine to provide game emulation. Then Steam can sell native games alongside carefully selected and tested Windows games and the experience is fairly seamless. Lots of Mac games are just Win32 ports running against a commercial Wine based layer called Transgaming Cider.

Games pose some extra challenges but eliminate some others. The Win32 is a rats nest of APIs but games typically don't use many of them. What they do use is DirectX apis so the emulation for that has to be perfect and performance is critical. Linux uses OpenGL and has different input and audio APIs, so DirectX commands must all be translated.

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Anonymous Coward

This is a bit wrong

There are more and more Windows games that are done in OpenGL now, that's why Valve were able to port things relatively easily to Mac. I very much doubt that they have any intention to run middleware to get things to run on Linux, and that they are far more likely to use OpenGL and some other proprietary libraries for audio + input, etc.

The problem is that there is, for the forseeable future, going to be far more games written for Windows, simply because DirectX is actually pretty good. OpenGL has caught up significantly, but I still don't enjoy it as much. I also know that at least one pretty big games developer is making moves towards Managed DirectX, which just locks them in further, but with the possibility of essentially supporting 3 platforms (new Windows phones, Xbox + desktops) with very little effort, it's entirely understandable.

Oh and I'm technically a Windows fanboi.

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Mac ports

It is as much a pain in the ass to native port a game to the Mac as it ever was. So companies use tools like Transgaming Cider to wrap the Windows binary with minimal changes and execute it natively on the Mac. The game is still written to DirectX apis but the graphics / audio API calls are mapped onto the Mac equivalents.

Not every game is done this way but a substantial number are. EA and Ubisoft use cider extensively for example.

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Pint

+1 for VMware? (esp for Win3.1 and related apps)

VMware has Linux essentials under the hood (albeit with its own display driver, which may or may not be up to hardcore CAD/gaming status yet, I don't know). So I join with the gentleman earlier who recommends trying VMware player (it's free) where Wine doesn't help.

This must surely be especially the case with Win3.1-era stuff which dates back to a time before Windows Genuine Advantage moaned at you every time you sneeze into your PC's innards. Just recreate that PC system disk in a VMware environment (there are tools to import the *existing* system as a VMware image; I haven't used them but in principle they should make this trivial).

Would be nice to see the experiments from the article performed with a widely available (for free) virtualisation product, such as VMware player (the licence for virtualbox is too restrictive and its future with Oracle is unclear).

Wine is a lovely idea (as was FX!32 which took NT/x86 Win32 apps and recompiled them on the fly to NT/Alpha Win32 apps) but its area of applicability is limited and its potential usefulness is decreasing over time, just like NT/Alpha's did.

On the other hand, virtualisation is increasingly attractive as time goes by.

[not a VMware employee/shareholder/etc, don't even like the stuff much for server virtualisation, but for odd corners where Linux desktops don't quite cut the mustard yet, it seems like it's worth a look]

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Why does every program on Linux have to be community developed?

It's simply unrealistic to think that every program could be replaced with a community/open source alternative if only people would try harder. Some programs are extremely complex yet are used by very few people or firms who require a high level of support - writing new versions of these, while a noble endeavour, would be a waste of the limited development resources which exist.

If Wine got good enough it might have an even better effect on Linux, that developers like Adobe would see it as an easy way to make Linux versions of their programs with only a little outlay to make it play nice with Wine.

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Go

wxWidgets, GTK, Qt, Juce, OO GUI Lib, XUL, FOX, FLTK, Review needed

..because that is the *real* cure for the Windows disease. There was an article about Juce some time ago, but especially wxWidgets now improved greatly.

A comparison would be greatly appreciated !

This is the result of quick googleing:

http://freshmeat.net/articles/gui-toolkits-for-the-x-window-system

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