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back to article Mozilla man blasts Apple and Google for HTML5 abuse

Mozilla open source evangelist Chris Blizzard has unloaded on both Apple and Google for abusing the HTML5 moniker, confusing netizens everywhere, and undermining the slow march towards truly open web standards. Blizzard is so peeved at Apple and Google that he even goes so far as to lavish praise on Microsoft for its belated …

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Stop

Nothing to see here...

All this rowing is one reason why, as a web developer, I'm ignoring HTML5 completely until it's released as a stable standard and is adopted properly by all the mainstream browsers.

Until then, it's just a way of using up my valuable time without any discernable benefit.

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Unhappy

I'm ignoring HTML5

"All this rowing is one reason why, as a web developer, I'm ignoring HTML5 completely until it's released as a stable standard and is adopted properly by all the mainstream browsers."

Then you will never do any HTML 5 development. People are very young or have short memories. There has always been inconsistent implementation of HTML standards.

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This post has been deleted by a moderator

Have to admit

I thought that part of the reason for reformatting HTML 4 into XML - e.g. XHTML 1 - was so that there would be less ambiguity about how tags should be "understood" by the browser.

Everything has to be closed so the browser doesn't have to worry about whether <p> is followed by </p> or not (for example). Therefore less bloat in the browser - smaller, better/faster browser.

A lot of what HTML 5 does is says, "OK, we give up. We KNOW you useless, talentless web-monkeys are just incapable of writing well-formed, semantic code - so you can have HTML 5 and write tag soup for all you're worth AND call it standards compliant - go you!" But that's been the case with HTML all along.

There are however some good things coming in HTML 5 - like the <nav> tag to semantically mark up navigation lists. And HTML 5 will still support XML style well-formed tags (as well as HTML 4 style). A default language for <script> isn't a bad thing and neither is the shortened DTD link line.

To be honest - if you're already coding to XHTML 1.1 Strict - you could simply change the DTD link and it would probably parse as 100% compliant HTML 5. So you can continue to write GOOD code with HTML 5 but you get a few new tags to play with.

Browsers won't be able to strip the bloat though so I'd guess HTML 5 will probably take fractionally longer to parse than XHTML 1 strict (assuming that XHTML 1 strict has ACTUALLY been written and the browser isn't having to fall back to tag soup parsing mode).

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Five?

We have a big book that has penciled in 'will not work' comments.

The graphite content is pretty big.

We have actually only got to three.

Thing is, every thing we do has to work cross browser.

Every time.

So it does not matter if Apple gets it right.

It does not matter if IE is close.

Everyone must agree if we can even attempt it.

So hello, MS, MAC,LINUX; you people kinda suck at programming.

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Jobs Horns

Once again

Apple shows its true colours. Isn't it funny how things are relative, even degrees of "evil"? People no doubt thought Napoleon was evil until Stalin came along. I've been an avowed Microsoft-hater for years, but next to Apple they look like charity queens - and I can't believe I'm actually warming to them. Just a little bit, mind you - they still need to be watched - but seeing Apple's behaviour these past couple of years has kinda put things in perspective!

OK, let the Apple thread wars commence... Form a firing line, people, let's move! Light 'em up!

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Where were you in the mid 80s

Back then it was Apple that were Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Margeret Thatcher, and Ronald Reagan all rolled into one. Where they shoved their weight around suing small companies to deter anyone else from developing WIMP interfaces. Tried to make all spreadsheet programs other than visicalc illegal, ripped off apps from small developers and then sued them 'because the apps looked the same'.

Seems that mid 90s someone thwacked a bunch of twonks upside the head and a reality distortion bubble swallowed them all up.

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Pirate

and

I think its funny that the tech world is going absolutely crazy over HTML5, what it is, what it isn't, and how it's not really what its advertised as. The reality is that the world doesn't give a rats arse one way or another. All the 'world' cares is can they see the sites they visit. Do the news sites work? does it look ok?

Outside of tech, and specifically web tech, no one cares. The nightly news isn't covering HTML5, magazines aren't writing in depth articles about it unless they are web tech rags.

I suppose irony could be called out that we have wars going on around the world, people dying for a cause and the US still as an invasion force in a foreign nation. We have a huge oil slick in the gulf of Mexico that's still effing leaking.

But, holy shit, HTML5 is ONLY supported by who? I'm sorry, it just doesn't seem all that important.

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Anonymous Coward

well....

You're on this site, reading this article, and posting a fairly lengthy post on the subject. Why not practice what you preach & send a can of beans to Africa or something instead? Oh yeah, you're just posturing. All you so-superior "why you discussing this" whiners just give this tired crap up already - we're on to you.

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Anonymous Coward

He has a point

Not so mush why discuss this, but WTF are people getting so angry about a technology, and saying this and that is the way forward, and people are clamering to use such and such, but hate something else when the "people" mostly coulden't give a fuck. I know I don't. I'm not a web designer, I'm not a programer, Im an enginneer, and I don't care as long as I can use the internet and what I want to read is there.

For 99.9% of the stuff I do HTML works fine. I don't need video or animation or lots of other stuff, and most of what I see using that stuff is advertising.

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Anonymous Coward

bullshit

It's the bullshit, rather than the technology that's annoying people. This recent stream of super-cynical, incredibly insulting marketing ploys pumped out by big tech is starting to grate. Yes, Jobs is right, there are plenty of morons that will suck it up and ask for more. However, there will inevitably be a backlash from those in the know and those that can recognise plain ol' mass manipulation.

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In which case, Jobs wins because...

...he's going with the vast majority. Those in the know = <1%

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FAIL

Standards fail

Apple's HTML 5 site is so lame that one of the demos (VR) not only requires Safari, but Safari running on Apple hardware!

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FAIL

Oh my gawd, call the police, a demo has restrictions

You've got to be kidding - you expect a demo to act fully functional?

But, I guess if your logic is always, "find fault with Apple," then comments like yours will always be.

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Dead Vulture

bah

Dammit, at this rate we'll never kill flash once and for all.

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If your name was Ming

that sentence would be perfect.

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Hey, the Apple Gallery works on FireFox!

...all you need to do is enable user-agent switcher, and change it to show iPhone OS 3...

Which means that it is standards compliant... except that Apple has decided a "showcase" for Safari.

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Go

Descriptive text goes here

HTML 5 is quickly becoming as technically descriptive a term as "Web2.0" was from the start. This is just another example of the industry scrabbling to make a 3.0

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They did a very long time ago

The technologists, the actual smart people, came up with such a thing as a Web 3.0. It was called the semantic web. It is largely ignored by an industry whose only means of revenue is advertising. In this case all that matters to business is that traffic is being generated. Why risk screwing that up by moving the technologies forward and doing right by the technology?

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WTF?

What has this world come to?

Microsoft supported by an Open-Source project leader? Microsoft helping standards?

I wish that software companies would stop saying that they support "HTML5" until it is actually a damn standard, until then they should refer to it as "provisional" or the like. I have seen so many problems arise when companies adopt "Standards" too early and when it becomes finalized, it all blows up.

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Valid Points

Don't know who he is, but Chris Blizzard has some valid points.

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Grenade

Hypocracy?

Mozilla is just as fast to jump on the HTML5 bandwagon as everybody else. They too call it a standard and claim standards support. HTML5 is not a standard. This is what happens when idiots jump the gun. The purpose of standards is conformance in the industry. HTML5 is not a standard so should anybody really be surprised that there is no conformance? Microsoft will only end up making things worse by jumping the gun, even if later in the game than everybody else. This is the kind of circus you get when there are no adults driving the bus and when anybody who disagrees that premature adoption of HTML5 as a holy prophecy gets shut up and flamed.

HTML5 is rapidly becoming a failure and its only going to get worse.

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<title/>

"If you’re not on Safari, then Fuck You."

Well, not quite. I appreciate it's a tad beyond Joe Bloggs' know-how and it's still a blatant trick to put a prompt in front of people to try and bag a few Safari 5 downloads but change your useragent to:

Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_5_8; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.16 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0 Safari/533.1

in any other browser, reload the page and you're in. You get quite an interesting message if you attempt to view the first HTML5 example (the video one) on Windows in Firefox (or presumably any other non-Mac OS/Safari combo):

"This demo contains H.264 video. Windows users can download QuickTime to enable support for this industry-standard format."

What was that Apple were saying about open standards?

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Thumb Down

Do I detect...

....the whine caused by a browser being caned by webkit?

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Silver badge

HTML5 Showcase doesn't work in Konqueror either..

..you know, that other webkit-powered browser?

Doesn't show the "you need Safari" overlay properly either.

What was that about webkit?

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Blizzard is deliberately missing the point

These demos showcase what standard compliant HTML5 can do, and hence what the web could look like if all browsers were fully compliant. But browsers are mostly not fully compliant, so for now, you can see what it would look like using Safari.

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Jobs Horns

hook, line, etc

The point you've completely failed to grasp is these demos DON'T showcase what HTML5 can do, they show (for the most part) what CSS3 can do. Apple is blurring the lines by suggesting CSS3 is part of HTML5, it's not.

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actually, the point is...

that tech dweebs like Blizzard have an independent existence only until someone smells a chance to make a few bucks out of whatever tech they spend their time pontificating about.

Once a multi-billion tech corp arrives on the scene, tech dweeb instantly becomes a tiny smear on the windshield as a huge truck gets driven straight through his life's work. Doesn't matter if it's Apple, Google, MS, Oracle or all of them, they climb on the gravy train while tech dweeb gets on the waaahmbulance. In the real world 'standards' exist only as a marketing/sales tools, unless proper engineering is involved - and weborrhea 2.5 doesn't count as engineering.

And if Blizzard believes that MS as a corp shares his view of standards, he's deluded. It's a defensive strategy as they desperately try to keep others from eating their lunch. If MS ever get out of 'panicky reaction' mode on the web, it'll be 'embrace, extend, extinguish' from them too.

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Yes, but not really

The real missed point is that all this fuzz aims to spread Safari a little more onto PC (and Quicktime in case you don't have already an iPod-iTunes). For the rest the points are valid as well as the Apple's demo isn't fully HTML5. Otherwise, why offering such a demo locked to Safari?

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Bronze badge

@Preacher

Anyone who knows the difference between HTML5 and CSS3 will already understand what Apple is really saying, whereas those who don't know the difference _might_ at least understand that HTML5 = next generation of web browsers. This litmus test clearly proves that this Blizzard chap is in the latter camp.

Bigging up Microsoft for doing the bare minimum also doesn't give his credentials much of a boost.

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Pint

HTML5? Pah!

Just another buzzword for know-it-all, know-nothing managers and PR types to bandy about in a sad desperate attempt to appear as though they are in the zeitgeist.

For us plebs on the IT shop-floor more headaches and more trouble as more users want more software that won't work properly, more overtime, more ca....hang on a minute!

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Flame

Déjà Vu

Nearly every web "standard" since time immemorial has suffered from exactly the same sort of bollox.

Now, flash is crap - everyone knows it's crap - but you know what? if I can use it to deliver a reasonably consistent experience without browser-sniffing, css hiding and positioning hacks, JS abstraction layers, per-browser codec detection and all the associated maintainability nightmares, I'm going to do just that. Sorry, my life is too short to wait for these cocks to get their act together.

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Coat

Microsoft are good guys now?

I'm no fan of Apple but it seems to me that the bashing they are getting is because their website "gives the impression" that Safari is the only browser to do HTML5. How is this worse than the much more visible "IE8 in 8 seconds" TV adverts from Microsoft which give the impression that IE is the only browser that can help you avoid attack sites, and the only browser that has a privacy mode.

Did they not steal that idea from Firefox?

The other thing which, I guess, people are so familiar with that they don't see it any more is that Safari is shown as being available "For Mac + PC". I have a PC - I run Linux. Can I have Safari?

I'm a PC and.... I'll get my coat...

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Silver badge

Take your arse over to Google

..and type in "PlayOnLinux". Once installed, you can use it to make various things (like Safari) play.. erm.. in Linux. It's basically a nice flashy GUI over WINE, so not technically "Safari in Linux", but it's the closest you'll get. It does things in a nice wizard-style as well. Select the "Safari" icon, click the install button, wait while it downloads and does its stuff.

Don't like Safari in Linux/WINE meself though. The fonts are a bit wrong, it runs a bit slow, plus you get Konqueror if you want something powered by webkit anyway.

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Linux

Google is your friend?

Come on, you must be new here.

Or, maybe just new to linux.

http://nightly.webkit.org

It's called compile from source. It's what real *nix geeks do for fun.

No evil Google icon yet, okay then Tux for linux!

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Anonymous Coward

Apple in "not advertising competitors" shocker!

Now, can anybody think of a modern browser that owes its existence to a browser that introduced extensions and tags which were

a) not part of any known standard ?

b) incompatible with every other browser?

c) a <blink>ing blight on the Interwebs?

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FAIL

I see...

...that's it's not only Apple who don't get open standards, it's the fanbois too.

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FAIL

RE: I see...

"...that's it's not only Apple who don't get open standards, it's the fanbois too."

The original commenter seems to have been casting aspersions about how good early versions of IE were (not good at all). They introduced tags of their own (blink being one of them) and basically made the internet an eye-watering thing to look at...

Of course, if your definition of "open standard" is "anyone gets to add whatever rubbish they like" then that's another story...

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Bronze badge

<blink>Netscape Navigator! With added annoyances!</blink>

I'm pretty sure Netscape invented the blink tag. Ahh good old Netscape Navigator, how I remember and hate thee.

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FAIL

RE: RE: I see...

Er, no s/he wasn't. Edumacate yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blink_element

You can blame MS for a lot of the web's ills, but they came late to the party. Consider my choice of icon multiplied x2 for your benefit.

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Silver badge

I'm pretty sure..

..that it was <font> and <layer> that Nutscrape introduced. Microsoft tried their own versions of things too, including DirectX filters. Yeah, try making THAT work on any platform that isn't Windows...

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FAIL

omg, stop the presses

A Company is making its own products look good on the internet, wont someone think of the children

Fail, well FFS

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@AC

And more dumb and blind downvoting because you had the audacity to criticise the irrational reactions on here. For shame you!

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Lol, drama!

I love Apple (when they behave) but they are acting like tw*ts here. Jobs comes across as a muppet when behaves like this.

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Alien

Apple is in the Drivers seat now...Get use to it!!

Chris Blizzard is the only one confused!

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Silver badge

Driving the wrong way

in a stolen car full of people who have no idea where they want to be and actually paid for the car but are too lazy and/or stupid to even contemplate driving lessons.

With users like this we'll never be able to go south of the river - or even out of town come to that.

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Anonymous Coward

Great Apple promotion!

Is "Chris Blizzard" really Steve Job's pen name? I'd never have noticed Apple's HTML5 page if it hadn't been for all this shouting. It makes for great publicity.

It's nothing more than a showcase for Apple software. The HTML5 bit is just the buzzword of the moment, i.e. marketing fluff. The message is really, "look at the web through Safari". If Chris is really an evangelist for Mozilla, he should have made a "look at the web through FireFox" page and shouted about that. Now all he has done is promote Apple.

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FAIL

Apple and Google...

...grandstanding and gobbing off about freedom, standards, privacy and coolness all the time. It's all just bollocks.

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It was always going to be difficult

So many people have made so much money over the years from lock-in's and de facto 'standards' that sweeping them away was always going to be a difficult job. Look at the never ending argument about video encoding. So many middle-men trying desperately to cling on to their meal tickets.

All this crap is just the death throws of the leviathan old school computer industry that has keep itself alive for far to long. The Hardware-OS-Apps lock-in should have died years ago. There is no need for it. HTML5 is just one more plank for its coffin. It's a lot of work to keep per-browser special coding going on a commercial web site but it's nothing compared to what it will be like if standards are not rigidly applied. More and more divers hardware is becoming capable of browsing that it will become impossible to keep track of every PC, laptop, palmtop, tablet, phone, book reader, TV, radio, domestic appliance, wristwatch, car, advertising hoarding, alarm clock and god know what else they will think of in the next few years.

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