back to article Linux gets jiggy with more filesystems in 2.6.34 kernel release

On Sunday a new version of the Linux kernel rocked up, with two new filesystems loaded into the distro. Laidback Linux founder Linus Torvalds characteristically understated the relevance of the latest 2.6.34 release in a post about the final release candidate. “Nothing very interesting here, which is just how I like it. Various …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.
FAIL

Amazing

Yup, that's exactly what Linux needs is ANOTHER F&^£$NG filesystem!

now PLEASE write some useful software to install on it?!

2
19
Silver badge
Headmaster

Language!

Please, AC -- use appropriate language.

In this case, the appropriate term is "fscking".

8
0
Linux

Useful software to run on it

Let's see...

Firefox

Seamonkey

Rhythmbox

VLC

MPlayer

XChat

Pidgin

Openoffice.org

...

And the list go on and on.

As for support for more file systems, I'm all for it. It makes Linux a great system for recovering otherwise-condemned-to-be-lost-forever-with-a-reformat data from a hard disk, just by hooking up said disk to a USB adapter.

Tux. Because unlike Window$, Linux is flexible and doesn't need a reinstall when your mobo fails and you cannot get a replacement of the same chipset for various reasons.

0
0
Silver badge

another file system

If you don't want to use the file sytems ... then don't; others, who have requirements that match what they are designed to address, will find them useful. Most application will not notice the difference, generally it is only the system admins who care.

Why is it that all these vitriolic flames are posted by ACs, afraid to show your name ?

BTW: el Reg, the kernel is just that a kernel. A ''distro'' will take that kernel & lots of other stuff to make something that the rest of us can use.

7
1
Linux

Useful?

Although there may well be 17 geeks out there somewhere that will find another filesystem useful (perhaps to install another notepad clone on).

The other 39841 Linux users would much prefer a workable alternative to Visio, a stable video editor, or an office suite that can compete with Office.

Yes, I'm afraid to show my true identity to frantic fanboi filesystem fanciers.

1
15
Silver badge

Well, what's stopping you?

You have a free compiler, free IDE, free tools, free OS to run them on. I'm sure the video editor people could do with some more help, if not the OpenOffice people.

Go on, actually do something about the limitations, rather than just whinge about them.

9
1

re:Useful

You seem to have failed to grasp the difference between an operating system and the programs that run on it.

0
0
Headmaster

Many things for most people...

Most people are not developers. They lack the time/skill/patience etc to do all these things. This is why people turn to developers. The whinging that you refer to should be taken as feedback as to the direction products should taken (admittedly, there is a difference between an 'its not Office' whinge and constructive criticism).

Linux is a fine operating system written by developers, for developers, as are most of the apps on there. It is this mindset, combined with an overly-defensive attitude that hampers the growth of Linux against the likes of Apple and Microsoft, not to mention prompting people who dare oppose or say anything remotely negative about Linux post as AC.

Have a nice day y'all!

0
1

Re: Re: Useful

You seem to be missing the point somewhat. I think what he was actually trying to say was that it's all very well releasing something that has new filesystems in it, but to the vast majority of people it's not going to matter to them, or interest them in the slightest, what would actually get them interested in Linux would be aforementioned software. I can't talk about the others but I use OpenOffice in preference to Office, so I wouldn't consider myself tooo biased (although I'd defend VS to the death), but the lack of commercial software is what is hurting Linux. This sounds counterintuitive, but I think that people actually prefer to pay for something because it means that they can put a value on it and judge it based on that. There's always going to be the assumption that free software is somehow worse than commercial software, especially when the free versions out there tend to be nowhere near the functionality of applications that cost large amounts of money on Windows and Mac.

As to the "why don't you go write it yourself" comment, how childish. You might as well say "if you don't like Windows go write your own OS". There's existing solutions out there for other platforms that do the necessary, and do it very well. The man in the street isn't going to want to have to "do it himself" and until there's something feasible on Linux to address all his needs he won't want to switch.

0
0
FAIL

kernel != application

"The other 39841 Linux users would much prefer a workable alternative to Visio"

Err, you seem to be confused between the kernel (the base of the system) and software applications. It would be like asking Microsoft to release Visio as part of their Windows core OS...

0
0
Linux

Studiously avoiding feeding the troll

"Laidback Linux founder Linus Torvalds characteristically understated the relevance of the latest 2.6.34 release in a post about the final release candidate."

That's because he's talking about the difference between the final release candidate and the previous release candidate.

A much more reader-friendly overview of this release is here :-

http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_2_6_34

3
0

This is a pretty different filesystem though

Ceph is a distributed filesystem, and sounds fantastic for storing large numbers of files safely for quick simultaneous access by thousands of users. But you're right, who wants to do *that*? We all just want to edit videos of people falling over for YouTube and draw fugly diagrams that obscure more than they clarify.

7
0
Coat

2.6.whatever

So, still no sign of Linus dropping the now-cast-in-stone 2.6 prefix and calling it Linux 34?

0
2
Silver badge
Coat

L U E

I'm waiting for 42.42.42

0
0
Coat

6.6.6 ?

n/t

1
0
Stop

@James Hughes 1

Of course we also all have the infinite free time, skills and enthusiasm to understand, enhance, debug, and test non-trivial application software. For nothing. While holding down a day job and having some kind of social life too. Yes indeedy.

3
11

It doesn't have to be that hard

Yes, the software is non-trivial. An individual's involvement can be trivial though, and still valuable.

Much of the criticism leveled at the recent Ubuntu release was of trivial issues caused by a lack of testing breadth. Many of the annoyances of Gimp and Firefox are quite superficial.

There is a lot of deep geekery going on, and it produces great results. As these projects move more and more into the user space they are requiring increasing breadth as well though. Most of that breadth is going to be provided by volunteers. As such a lot of it is going to be quite shallow since volunteers need to earn, pay bills and have some fun with the remaining scraps.

What little bit you can do to provide some of that breadth can be valuable. Even if you're a one trick pony, testing and patching a single obscure corner case it does help. A great thing that open source projects give us is a way to engage with our tools in a way that isn't possible otherwise. Take that opportunity for engagement, you'll help the development of the products, and probably help your own skills development too (except your pool and darts skills of course).

1
0
Thumb Down

@AC

"Of course we also all have the infinite free time, skills and enthusiasm to understand, enhance, debug, and test non-trivial application software. For nothing. While holding down a day job and having some kind of social life too. Yes indeedy."

Just like an open source software author.

Unfortunately, you sound like a selfish parasite who thinks you're entitled to free software. You're not.

4
1
Silver badge

SO dont whinge...

"Of course we also all have the infinite free time, skills and enthusiasm to understand, enhance, debug, and test non-trivial application software. For nothing. While holding down a day job and having some kind of social life too. Yes indeedy."

So, if that the case, fine, (I am in the same situation, except I have children and therefore no social life anyway) but don't whine about the lack (or not) of robust Linux applications.

0
0
Thumb Down

Hmmm...

So, forgive my innocence, but why, in that case, does the OSS community tend to have such a downer on the commercial side of the industry that includes developers who get paid to write software and don't wish to share their code? They wrote it, if they wish to charge for it, that is their free choice as much as it is an OSS author's choice to do it that way.

If you don't like sharing software with those who can't develop software, then don't (there are other options, like selling it), it's your choice, but referring to end users as 'selfish parasites' does OSS no good at all.

0
0
Linux

Very, very useful filesystems...

Interesting that they are at the very high end (petabytes on distributed networks) and at the very low end (embedded devices, removable storage). The LogFS is very interesting indeed given Ubuntu's new focus on embedded, touchscreen-driven systems...

1
0
Thumb Up

Re: Very, very useful filesystems...

Damn right.

Obviously not for many home users, but given that Lustre's future has become somewhat clouded under Snoracle, Ceph might be a way to go. However, the question remains as to whether Ceph is a mature enough product ...

0
0

Ceph is still experimental...

"and is not yet ready for use in a production environment. " Words straight from Ceph's mouth.

0
0
FAIL

@ AC 15:56

What a hero!

A job AND a social life!

I'm sure that Linux users world-wide feel humbled that you managed to spare a second or two to read an article that you clearly have no meaningful interest in, and then spend time putting up 2 posts.

No, on second thoughts I don't believe you. You're a sad little individual whose only pleasure in life is whining about something you know fsck all about.

Social life? Would that be with your right hand?

2
1
Troll

Release candidate?

So when's this Linux thing going to be finished? Or is it still in beta?

0
5
Silver badge

RE: Release candidate?

I'd imagine it will be finished about the time MS/Apple/Adobe etc all have either taken all your money for their regularly finished products or given up altogether, For everyone's sake I hope its the latter.

0
0
Happy

currently running 2.6.34.x

I use sidux in 64bit as a full blown KDE 4.4.3 desktop and upgrade every few days as a rolling release.

It may seem subtle for me as it gets better every few days or in chunks for those who upgrade periodically but Linux is very adaptive now. Try it if you can, sooner or later you will.

That adaptivity is due in large part to the awesome kernel. Change is the normal state of the world and few OS react even marginally well, whereas Linux just rocks on.

It really is the largest fastest moving software project in the history of computers and computing science... ever.

For those who don't fully understand and adapt... you will be left behind.

Instead of thinking of trivial things to complain about, while knowing nothing.

You should spend a little time looking at what Linux in its profound number of distributions can actually do.

Other Operating System platforms are just dusted when compared to a properly configured Linux... I not sorry, but that is just the facts as they are.

Movies being made, supercomputing, communications, your cell phone perhaps... that is were Linux lives... more file system adaptability, of course, what did you expect, its the kernel. You want applications? 28,000+ and counting, just look. Wow!

As I have said before and its still true, Linux just gets better every minute of every day.

Some day, if Linux platforms and applications were arrows crossing the sky... their numbers will blot out the sun, metaphorically speaking. Go Linus and everyone else working on this... Linux rocks. I use a still warm to the touch distro made of beta ware by design, I have 1350 applications that make it tick... its fluid and perpetually growing, it does not break or hang ever... What more can I say about how solid this platform is.

That's it.

2
1
Anonymous Coward

open your eyes

"Other Operating System platforms are just dusted when compared to a properly configured Linux... I not sorry, but that is just the facts as they are."

You've not heard of FreeBSD then?

Oh, and as for filesystems, we have ZFS

0
0
FAIL

open yours...

And your point is...?

Have you not heard of Windows 98? we have FAT32

0
0
Thumb Down

Black link text is a bad idea.

This article includes hypertext links with black text within a paragraph of black text. Poor usability.

0
0

Filesystems show Linux's attractiveness for embedded systems and for CompSci research

LogFS is a worthwhile addition to the increasing collection of Linux filesystems as it allows efficient use of flash memory. You will have noticed that flash is becoming quite popular. The incorporation of LogFS also represents part of an effort to bring the software traditionally added to the kernel for embedded systems into the mainstream kernel, and this change of attitude from both kernel and embedded developers is welcome.

Although it is very easy to complain about the huge number of supported filesystems when presented with the 20-odd long list, the willingness of Linux to interoperate with any hardware, any disk or any network protocol is a major reason for its appeal. It greatly simplifies moving away from a AIX-based accounting system, a QNX-based building management system or a SCO-based point of sale system.

The number of supported filesystems doesn't in any way harm the interests of the desktop Wintel-hardware user. It is more a complaint about journalists love of cluttering their articles with feature lists rather than anything to do with Linux itself.

The Ceph filesystem is something different. It is yet another example that Linux is now the preferred platform for computer science researchers and their software development. That has been the case for about five years now (for example, developments in computer networking are near-exclusively focussed on Linux), but both the kernel community and researchers are making more of an effort to place these advances within the mainstream kernel, so that the research gives an ongoing legacy. This means that there is an increasing number of features that should not be used by the average user. But since that user is unlikely to approach a Linux machine with a Ceph-formatted USB stick it is difficult to see that this has any real-world effect.

0
0

For the common user

The HaikuOS FS would have been nice in the kernel, though maybe not ready.

0
0
Gold badge

Jack of all trades, master of none

Linux is a jack of all trades, it can be used in phones, set top boxes, TVs, computers and therefore there will be loads of stuff in the kernel to support all these different devices.

I think the days of being able to roll your own sensible kernel are starting to end, there's just too many options!

0
2
Boffin

LogFS has some fscking capabilities in the right context

As someone who looked a bit into log-structured filesystems way back when as a grad student, they have some great capabilities in the right context.

Your standard file systems assume a use pattern where reads predominate over writes. They attempt to update files more-or-less in place, perhaps moving them through a journal first. This is done to try to keep files that are somehow "related" (typically, "in the same directory") in some sense "near" each other on disk, hoping to minimize seek time during later access. This involves a fair amount of fiddling with the on-disk file data, meta-data, and file system structures. It makes sense to do all this on rotating magnetic disks where seek time is major performance constraint, and one that is stubbornly resistant to Moore's Law.

Enter flash storage devices. No rotating media, no seek time constraint. But enter also a new constraint: lifetime limits on the number of erase cycles. The on-disk fiddling of standard file systems hits flash here. Combine this with flash's other constraint: the need for erases to take place in huge chunks that might have pieces (or all) of other, unchanged files. If you try to use a file system meant for spinning platters, you wind up with flash performing poorly over a shorter lifetime.

Log-structured file systems avoid this problem by *not* trying to update in place. Write new or updated data in the next empty, available portion of permanent storage. Write new metadata pointing to this updated location ... and write that new metadata in the next empty, available portion of permanent storage. Recurse up the meta*-data chain as necessary until, at the last step, the meta* data is written in a known pre-ordained location (or one of a handful of such locations). Yes, such location can become an erase hot-spot and limit the device lifetime, which is why you might want to have a reserved pool you cycle through. And yes, you need some kind of garbage collection to reclaim areas full of nothing but obsolete data. Ain't nothing perfect. Of course, you play nifty tricks with caching stuff in memory as well, to batch up the writes to the devices and satisfy reads on recently-active files ... but this is standard for any file system.

OK, so this has the nice effect of leveling out erase cycles across a flash device. But it has a fsck-tastic effect on _spinning_ media when doing heavy writes of new data, such as keeping os and application logs or writing large backup jobs. The file system just writes the data into the location under the disk head. No seeking, except for when you need to jump to the next track. In this use case, log-structured file systems (on a dedicated disk!!) are *wicked* fast.

There are also some possibilities that log-structured-ness opens up. Since the filesystem is a log, the whole file system history persists on the media, at least until garbage collection knocks holes in the history (and of course you could set a preserve bit to prevent even that on critical files). Can you say "undo file delete"? I knew you could! After all, it's just a special case of file system level versioning / checkpointing / branching.

Caveat (PHBs take note): this is a high-level description. The devil is in the details. You are hereby not, repeat not, an expert on log-structured file system (neither, for that matter, am I).

The paper at http://lazybastard.org/~joern/logfs1.pdf has more detail and is clearer than this post. And it's short.

No, I'm not affiliated with the LogFS project. I just think they're onto a good thing.

So, AC, now do you understand why YAFS isn't such a bad thing? Or do you wish to maintain that FAT and NTFS, or for that matter EXT4, are all the world really needs?

Mine's the one with the bits of bark and wood chips in the pocket, thanks.

0
0
Linux

Mantis driver

Woohoo the Mantis chipset finally made it into the kernel...

So hopefully the next Ubuntu release will have the Mantis module has standard :)

I've just compiled 2.6.34 to get the Mantis driver working on my MythTV box.

Mike

0
0
This topic is closed for new posts.

Forums