back to article Britain and Israel in stand-off over Mossad officer

The Foreign Office has refused to allow Israel to return a Mossad officer to London following the assassination of a senior member of Hamas in Dubai by agents travelling on British passports, it's reported. Britain is seeking assurances that its identity documents will not be abused in future, but Israel has refused because such …

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And of course

No MI6 agent has EVER used a dodgy non-British passport.

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A couple of words missing

No MI6 agent has EVER BEEN CAUGHT used a dodgy non-British passport. It's getting caught that gets you into trouble. Getting filmed and leaving behind loads of other evidence is even worse.

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Anonymous Coward

I don't understand why Isreal doesn't immediately give all the required assurances ...

.. it's not like they're actually going to follow them.

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Grenade

a profound disregard for the sovereignty of the United Kingdom

Who would have thought it.

Oh yes anyone with eyes and a brain.

This revolting excuse for a country needs to be thrown in the same bin as Iran, N Korea and Afghanistan until the learn to behave like decent human beings. (that is to say forever)

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Black Helicopters

Re: ...revolting excuse for a country...

Were you talking about UK, Israel, US...?

The point is every government does this _all_ the time. Getting caught is one thing, yes. But a more important part of the game is to do it so everyone else is blaming the "obvious" choice.

They guy they took out was quite right in thinking that any attempt would be captured (at least on film and records) and it could not be seen as an accident. When you have a job you obviously can't cover up, you don't abandon the job - you just make sure that somebody else (anybody) takes the fall.

It is the height of naivety to think that Israel did not learn (or teach?) all these lessons a decade ago from the pristine example nearly a decade ago when [REDACTED - naming blame for this event is a warrant for "interest" in internet communications)] et. al. pulled off one of the biggest financial scams of all time... and got a *fictional* group named after a database file name blamed for it... genius. Evil, sure. But genius nonetheless...

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1988

David Milliband is Jewish (though he says he is not religious), Geoffery Howe is not and was comfortable taking a tough stand with Israel.

The next government of the UK, most likely Conservative, will be more prone to lobbying from pro-Israel groups. The stand-off will not need to last very long.

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Anonymous Coward

What's the problem?

If Israel say "we will never use stolen or falsified British identity documents in any overseas operations" in what way is that an admission that they were involved in the assasination?

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Yeah but

Perhaps the Israeli government feels that re-iterating the assurance given in 1988 implies that it has been broken

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Black Helicopters

State Sanctioned Terrorism

We don't do deals with Terrorists.

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WTF?

Since when?

Perhaps we shouldn't, but your statement is ludicrous. As for Israel, they need to start again on a secular and democratic basis, because the way that they're going only leads to one future, death and destruction for Israel and a great many of their neighbours.

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title

"The Serious and Organised Crime Agency"

As opposed to the Frivolous and Disorganised Crime Agency?

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sadly close to the truth ....

along with the serious farce office

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Frivolous and Disorganised Crime Agency

They prefer the short form: "The government"

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Actually...

The .. they other branch of the police is call the Whimsical and Chaotic Crime Agency.

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UK showing some backbone ?

some mistake, surely ?

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Alert

Good idea.

And if I were them, I would ask assurances that their operatives will not go after British citizens. After all, they did assassinate Lord Moyne.

Not anti-semitic or anti-israel here but the double standard applied to Israel in general is not a healthy attitude.

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No double standard?

Are you suggesting that death camp survivors should get as good a kicking as Palestinian terrorists?

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Anonymous Coward

Playing the race card

Not just for our darker skinned ethnic groups.*

*But just to be clear Judaism is a religion, not an ethnic group.

Anon because many backbench Labor and Conservative MP's enjoy a very close relationship UK-Israel "Friendship" groups.

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title

Perhaps he meant Israel's nukes should be treated the same as Iraq's WMD's, or their land grabs (West Bank, Gaza, Lebanon) should receive the same response as Iraq's land grabs (Kuwait).

Just a thought.

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RE: title

Congratulations! Amongst all the nonsensical and illeducated anti-Israeli posts in this thread, yours won through as the most laughable and free of any historical knowledge.

"....Perhaps he meant Israel's nukes should be treated the same as Iraq's WMD's...." Israel has never used WMDs against anyone. Saddam had a history of not only developing massive WMD programs (nuke, biological and chemical) but also had a history of using them on his enemies, even on Iraqis. Please go read up on Halabja and then you'll realise why the West viewed the idea of Saddam gaining nukes as so serious. In comparison, Israel has only ever fought defensive wars against much larger Arab states bent on ethnically cleansing "Palestine" of Jews, and has only developed nuke weapons as a final option should those Arab states ever look like winning. There is no need to worry about Israeli nukes because (a) Egypt and Jordan have realised it's better off being at peace, and (b) the rest of the Arabs are more worried about Iran than the Fakeistinians.

"....or their land grabs (West Bank, Gaza, Lebanon)...." And thanks for offering this opportunity to expose your complete lack of historical knowledge! We'll take it one step at a time to expose each of these old and tired anit-semitic slights for the waste of oxygen they are.

The Israelis completely pulled out of the buffer zone in Southern Lebanon in 2000, as validated by the UN. They never occupied or settled in that buffer zone, it was always under the control of the South Lebanese Army (mainly Christian militias under Saad Haddad). They only went in to stop PLO terrorist attacks accross the border from Lebanon which were killing Israeli civillians, and in particular after the Beiruit-based PLO (with Iraqi assistance) tried to kill the Israeli ambassador in London. So, as a "land grab" that rates as a big, fat zero.

Gaza? Again, Israel completely pulled out of Gaza in 2005, pulling out all settlers. The Israelis hoped this would help foster peace, but the reality is that the corruption and neglect of the Palestinian Authority let the Islamists of HAMAS take control, and we all know what a stirring succes they have been! After all, why would Israel get at all upset by Gaza being run by a group that refuses to recognise Israel and has a founding prinicple of wanting to ethinically cleanse all of Israel? Strangely enough, the same Fakeistinians that were so upset by the Israeli occupation after the 1967 war had been quite happy when Egypt occupied Gaze from 1949 through to 1967. There were no calls for Egyptian withdrawl. Strange that!

And the West Bank, a piece of land that actually doesn't belong to anyone. What, I hear you say, doesn't it belong to the "Palestinians"? Well, actually, no it doesn't. You see, in 1948 when the Arabs decided to reject the UN partition plan they also rejected the idea of a state called Palestine. Therefore the country doesn't exist. If it did exist and was a member of the UN then it would have UN backing to force Israel to withdraw to internationally recognised borders. The problem for the Arabs is that they thought they could overwhelm the Jews in 1948 and so didn't want to set borders, so they now don't have a leg to stand on. The so-called 1967 border is not a proper border as far as the West Bank is concerned, it is only the 1949 armistace line, a line drawn to show the stop positions of military units after the 1949 ceasefire, and has never been recognised as a border. The country we call Jordan (which does have a real border) which was created from the old East Bank, was 76% of the old Palestine Mandate territory set aside especially for the Arabs by the Brits to defuse a potential Saudi civil war, despite a portion of that land already having been promised to the Jews in the Balfour Declaration. Jews were banned from owning land in the new Jordan. They are still banned from owning land in the West Bank by the PA. The PA is determined that all Israelis living in the West Bank should be sent home (i.e., ethinically cleansed), even though there have been some Jewish settlements and villages in the West Bank since long before the 1948 partition plan. Of course, in Israel there are Arabs living as Israeli citizens with rights, including land owenership, and the Israeli state is not calling for them to be removed. And strangely again, when the West Bank was under Jordanian occupation from 1949-1967, there were no calls from the Fakeistinians for the Jordanians to withdraw. Maybe that's because the Jordanians also cleansed East Jerusalem of Jews, moving Arabs into Jewish neighbourhoods in an attmpt to "Arabise" East Jerusalem. And with all the Fakeistinian calls for "right of return", they sure aren't calling for the Jews to get those homes back!

Then you mention Kuwait, a sovereign country and member of the UN, protected by the UN charter, and compare Saddam's invasion to Israel's occupation of the unowned West Bank. That was one UN member state invading another, which means the other UN charter states were obligated to bring about the removal of Iraqi forces and the restoration of the recognised Kuwaiti government. I'd try and explain the difference but I sense you really don't have a clue, have no desire to actually debate the issue, and just like throwing around wild comparisons that someone else has spoonfed you.

You should really try reading up on the terrorists you sympathise with before making any more idiotic statements. Then you can actually post a thought that is your own.

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Grenade

oy vey

what a load of old bollocks

If it wasnt for the sho'ah and the wests guilt about covertly supporting it israel would NEVER have been permitted to exist.

And certaily the current campaign of genocide the IDF is waging against the rightful owners of the land would have been stopped.

on the subject of research...

Israel has only ever fought defensive wars

what bollocks! are you really trying to suggest that the 6 day war was defensive??

fuckwit

theres a difference between developing nukes and merely buying them :D

where are /were Saddams WMDs or WMD programmes? Bush and blairs already wafer thin credibility rested on the claims od saddams nastiness, and the entire country was dug up after they invaded. what was found

fuck all thats what.

dont you think the unease in the west about saddam was due to his beligerence in relation to his neighbours, and his attempts to trade up his guns and bombs? israel has been CONSTANTLY at war with all its neighbours AND it's indgenous population for over 50 years. flying in the face of 223 UN resolutions telling them to behave like civilised people.

No the palistinians didnt complain too much about the egyptian occupation - but the egyptians boxed clever there by, for example, not blowing up schools full of children with their helicopter gunships.

OH and claiming palistinian lands are not owned by anyone.....

where did i hear this argument being put forwards....

something to do with sub-humans, a differen branch of a similar race.

phisically disposes them

segregate them

legaly disposess them

morally disposess them

and what was that the excuse for?

you are just the same

shame on you.

like i said

revolting

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Suggest you do the same

You said "You should really try reading up on the terrorists you sympathise with before making any more idiotic statements. Then you can actually post a thought that is your own."

Perhaps you should research how Israel managed to "terrorise" the west into getting an Israeli state between 1945 and 1948....

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RE: oy vey

"....If it wasnt for the sho'ah and the wests guilt about covertly supporting it israel would NEVER have been permitted to exist...." Yeah, except for the fact that the majority of the British establishment did not support the idea of a Jewish state of Israel. Balfour's whole declaration can quite easily be seen for the depserate attempt to garner support amongst US Jews for the British WW1 effort that it was. Before the Brtis stepped out in 1948 they had to endure years of standing between the local Jews and Arabs attacking each other (that was when the bedouin weren't fighting the Syrians, Christians and Druze), which only got worse with the arrival of battle-trained Jews from Europe post-WW2. Ironically, many of the Jewish terrorists of the 1945-48 period had been trained as resistance fighters by the OSS and MI6, or as soldiers in the British or US armed forces.

As for the rest of Europe, drowning in non-Jewish refugees, they weren't too unhappy at the idea of offloading their Jewish refugee problem onto the Brits. Some had good reason to see the Jews go as they had helped the Nazis attempt to eradicate them. And in the US they were actually alarmed - they wanted the British influence in the Med reduced, but they saw the known Jewish leaders of the day as quite Socialist and feared any Jewish state would fall under Soviet control. All in all there was no great drive by the US or Europe to create Israel, it was more the fact that Jews were quitting Europe in massive numbers and rushing to Israel that pushed it through. The Brits even tried intercepting the refugee ships and sending them back!

So, the Jews had pushed their way into Israel despite British efforts, and then the Brits gave up on the idea of finding a settlement and set a pull-out date with the UN. At that point, the Israellis were massivekly outnumbered and out-gunned - they didn't have a formal army or airforce, unlike Egypt and Jordan which had good units trained (and in some cases officered) by Brits, or the French-trained and armed Syrian forces. More than one commentator said the Brits had deliberately left the Israellis to die. But the Jews fought for their land harder than the invading Arabs, without help from Europe or the US (in fact, at that point they were receiving the majoity of weapons from Soviet-alligned Czecheslovakia, which alarmed the CIA!).

So, Israel was created and flourished because Jews fought for it, not because the West forced the Arabs to accept it. Israel succeeded more depsite of the West than because of it. Until the Suez War in 1956 the Brits sided more with the Arabs, it was only Nasser's push for Arab nationalism that led to the Brits siding with Israel in 1956. And then it was the Yanks that forced the embarassing withdrawl of the Brits from Suez in 1956 - if the US had been so set on supporting Israel they would have simply let the Brits sieze the canal and the Jews the Sinai.

"....are you really trying to suggest that the 6 day war was defensive??...." Yes, I am. Or rather historians say it was. Nasser's Egyptians had violated the terms of the UN ceasfire from 1956 (in particular he expelled the UNEF peacekeepers from Sinai in May 1967 when they reported Egypt military buildups) and were massing forces on the southern front. Jordan and Syria were openly colluding with the Egyptians and had moved forces forward too on the eastern and northern fronts, and Radio Cairo was telling the World to prepare for the destruction of Israel. The Jews knew they could only win if the struck first. You may want to check some international law as the Israeli's were justified in mounting a pre-emptive attack as a defensive measure, it still gets classed as a defensive war. Looks like more reading for you!

"....where are /were Saddams WMDs or WMD programmes?..." personally, I don't know, but I suggest you go ask some of the few survivors from Halabja. Try doing so without calling them liars and fuckwits just because their story won't agree with your spoonfed expectations.

".....israel has been CONSTANTLY at war with all its neighbours AND it's indgenous population for over 50 years...." Consider that the Israelis were willing to accept the 1948 partition plan and take a much smaller state than they were originally promised, based around areas that were predominantly Jewsish already, and that they stated they were willing to live peacefully alongside the Arabs. Then consider that not one Arab leader accepted the same plan but all called for the eradication of Israel. Also consider that any Arab politician that has even suggested peace with Israel has been assassinated by other Arabs. Many Arab countries, such as Syria and Egypt, used Arab nationalism and anti-semitism as a means to deflect attention away from poor economic performance and internal corruption. Now, are you beginning to see the reason Israel has been at war for over fifty years? Doubtful, you'd have to do some thinking for yourself for that to happen.

".....but the egyptians boxed clever there by, for example, not blowing up schools full of children with their helicopter gunships...." Please supply details of one occasion when the Israelis have used helicopter gunships to blow up "schools full of children". Shall I just save you a lot of time and suggest you're talking out of your arse? Then I suggest you go look at pics of schools in Sderot, which have armoured shields to protect the children from the rockets and mortars fired without warning out of Gaza.

".....where did i hear this argument being put forwards...." I'm guessing you never heard it before, not unless a neat counter was being spoonfed to you at the same time. But, if you think it's bunk, please supply a reasoned counter with links to international law that say otherwise. Oh, you can't. Can't find a counter and can't form an argument for yourself, just parrot what others have told you to think.

".....something to do with sub-humans, a differen branch of a similar race...." Careful, I might have to remind people what even modern imams say about Jews being the offspring of "pigs and apes". It even extends to Islamic schools here in th UK, just Yahoogle for King Fahd Academy in Acton and then try and pretend it doesn't exist.

"....segregate them...." Hmmm, so Arabs can live in Israel as Israeli citizens, but Jews can't in Arab countries. In fact, the Arabs don't even give citizenship to the Fakeistinians in places like the Lebanon, they prefer to keep them as refugees in camps. Looks like you really need to re-examine that segregation thing, if you can.

"....shame on you...." Well, if my thoughts cause you pain then I'm going to shout them all the louder, as there's nothing as laughable as an ill-educated moron like you, supporting some trendy popularist cause they have never had the intelligence to fact check. Grow up, get your own ideas for a change, and stop wasting oxygen.

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Pirate

Suggest you do the same

"....Perhaps you should research how Israel managed to "terrorise" the west into getting an Israeli state between 1945 and 1948...." So, please do explain how the Jews "terrorised" the West between 1945-48? I don't recall any bombing campiagn in Western countries? No assassinations of Western leaders by Jews either. What, you're going to claim that in 1948 the Jews flew an arliner into the Twin Towers? Did the jews get nasty and threaten to stop working as doctors, lawyers, dentists, engineers, teachers or accountants? Or maybe you just sprouted more male bovine manure because someone told you an uncorroborated libel, and your tiny, little brain didn't think to check for historical fact first? Sorry, I'm going to have to go with the tiny, little brain theory.

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Anonymous Coward

bah

Neither MI6 or Mossad or any of the world major intelligence services are famous for their ethics or integrity.

If I were the Israeli's I'd tell the local MI6 rep in Tel Aviv to get lost till this is sorted out.

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Probably all for show.

With everything going on as before behind the scenes. What the government doesn't know (officially) doesn't count.

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Grenade

Fat Chance

Seeing as the Israelis barely even keep their promises to their big sugar daddy (See the current arguments on new settlements with the Americans), what are the odds of them caring about the UK and their little hurt pride?

The day the Americans put a drastic cut in the defence aid that they provide to Israel is the day you will hear the screams of anguish from Tel Aviv and genuine promises to behave better! With Israel providing the UK with loads of important defence kit and intel on terrorists, don't count on UK politicians anything similar! (Unless the Lib Dems get into power!)

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RE: Fat Chance

I see the fatter chance as that you might actually post something factual and correct.

"....See the current arguments on new settlements with the Americans...." The deal made by the Israelis with the US in April 2009 was that the Israelis would halt settlement buidling in the West Bank EXCEPT in Jerusalem. Even Shrillary Clinton hailed it as a breakthough. And then we didn't actually have any building working just the announcement that doesn't even mean building for another two years at best! Face it, the Obumbler knew his big push on peace talks was going to fail so he decided to blame it on Israel.

"....The day the Americans put a drastic cut in the defence aid that they provide to Israel is the day you will hear the screams of anguish from Tel Aviv...." Yeah, that's worked so well in the past. Like in 1967 when the US refused to see the Egyptian preparations for war and had ramped down Israeli support in the hope of peace talks. The Arabs just took advantage and planned to attack Israel. Sames goes for 1973. Every time the US has ramped down support for Israel it has only encouraged the Arabs to "misbehave", and then the US has had to quickly supply more weapons. Oh, but then I suspect you would quite like the idea of Israel being left defenceless.

But, just to upset you, I'd liek to point out that the Israelis have been burnt by relying on other before (quite literally if you think of the Holocaust), so they now have plans for their own weapon production if the US or any other supplier fail on them. They can make their own tanks, planes, missiles, radar, guns, artillery, drones, etc, etc. In fact, the little Israeli arms industry is so good it's actually a big export success story for Israel. If the US did decide to cut all arms shipments it would be a painful inconvenience but it would not give you the Arab victory you grave.

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Visa controls?

If the UK government really meant business they would impose visa controls on Israel. I can't see that ever happening though.

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Renewing a promise that was already broken.

"Britain is seeking assurances that its identity documents will not be abused in future, but Israel has refused...."

Why? They made the same promise before but have not kept it, as indicated at the end of the article:

"Margaret Thatcher shut down the agency's UK operation in 1988, partly because plans to use British passports in operations against Palestinian exiles had emerged. Mossad officers were allowed to return to London after apparently giving assurances the transgression would not be repeated."

This shows that such assurances are a waste of breath or paper. How about getting them to promise that they''ll use US passports next time?

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Anonymous Coward

Silly waste of time

This is utterly futile. After a (fairly short) while, the Israeli government will tell the US government to put a stop to it. The US government will tell the British government to put a stop to it. And a stop to it will be put.

That's how things work in the "international community".

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dunno

I used to think so, but having seen how fast the little shits got out of gaza when obama got himself elected, just a slight suspicion there may have been a call from the state dept along the lines of... wind your fucking necks in, or we'll send the next guns and bombs delivery to hamas 'by mistake'

cos sure as shit nothing shrub could have said would have made istail do anything

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Anonymous Coward

Especially...

When when dealing with the Fourth and Fifth Reichs - sorry, USA and Israel...

The UK has only one basis for our 'special relationship' with the USA. They say jump and as a supposed democracy we retain the right to ask how high.

This is just a public show of indignation by people who know full well what the score is. Ultimately the UK will do as it's done for decades - exactly as we're told.

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Ironically

...we finally get a US president who's unimpressed by the Israelis, and it turns out he doesn't like us either!

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Boffin

RE: Especially...

".....This is just a public show of indignation....." This is just Millygirl trying to look tough in preparation for the Labour leadership race after Brown loses the election.

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Anonymous Coward

@AC

'If Israel say "we will never use stolen or falsified British identity documents in any overseas operations" in what way is that an admission that they were involved in the assasination?'

Indirectly, in that the very careful (and unnatural) wording makes it obvious that they are refusing to answer the obvious question: "Did you do that on the occasion in question?"

The obvious reply to such a statement would be:

"Do you admit that you were involved in the assassination, and that you did on that occasion use stolen or falsified British identity documents? If you do so admit, since you have previously promised not to do so, what value can we attach to your latest promises? If you deny it, why would we not think you systematic liars and disregard everything you say?"

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Boffin

Diplomacy

"Do you admit that you were involved in the assassination, and that you did on that occasion use stolen or falsified British identity documents? If you do so admit, since you have previously promised not to do so, what value can we attach to your latest promises? If you deny it, why would we not think you systematic liars and disregard everything you say?"

Because if they deny it, and you then disregard everything they say, then you are admitting that you think they did it, and are systematic liars. Which begs the question "Why did you ask for a promise from someone you don't trust, unless for the rather obvious attempt at embarrassing them*?"

Diplomacy is based on the principle of taking a nation's statement at face value; this is both naive and incredibly sophisticated at the same time. The goal is to maintain a thin veneer of supposed respectability over the top of what is essentially a gang of children locked in a perpetual game of "Am Not!" "Are Too!"

* As well as the questions, "Why don't you trust us?", "Why should we allow any trade with you?", "Why don't you step over here and look into this light for a few minutes while we ask you a few nice questions?"

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Anonymous Coward

@rpjs

"No MI6 agent has EVER used a dodgy non-British passport."

You forget that they would not kill Palestinians while using forged, foreign passports. They only kill those who cross British Petroleum or Shell. Palestinians don't have oil.

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Black Helicopters

Re: Palestinians don't have oil.

They (MI6, et. al.) also kill those that might disrupt the supply to BP or Shell... oh wait, or does UK.gov just call the US for that?

"The ability to destroy a thing, is power over a thing." - Frank Herbert

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Chamberlain repeated.

As JohnG (above) re-stated:

"Margaret Thatcher shut down the agency's UK operation in 1988, partly because plans to use British passports in operations against Palestinian exiles had emerged. Mossad officers were allowed to return to London after apparently giving assurances the transgression would not be repeated."

Later......

...but Israel has refused because such an undertaking would amount to confirmation it carried out the killing...

Of course, the refusal is a clear admission. Nothing to hide, etc.

If they signed such an undertaking*, it would only be a piece of paper, waved in the breeze...

*word to conjure with. Think it was used in the "no such undertaking has been received from Germany'" speech.

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Black Helicopters

If only it were true.....

"...They only kill those who cross British petroleum or Shell..."

What a lovely thought! A government department actually providing a service to corporate taxpayers!

Alas, it is very unlikely that SIS would get off their butts to do something for the UK generally. Everything they have done in the last 20 years , since the fall of the Berlin Wall, has been aimed at creating a new role for themselves and Security Service.

The prospect of unemployment once we had lost the Eastern Bloc enemy really concentrated their minds. And now, thanks to clever briefing and hand-in-glove work with the CIA et al, we now have a whole set of really helpful enemies.

Bit of a shame for the weapons industry that the new enemies don't require huge amounts to be spent on aircraft carriers and tanks. But at least there will be a lot of profit to be made in hi-tech pilotless assasination aircraft....

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Black Helicopters

"They only kill those that might disrupt the supply to BP or Shell"

Like David "I will probably be found dead in the woods" Kelly? (I doubt Mossad were to blame for that one.)

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Anonymous Coward

@ian 22

"Are you suggesting that death camp survivors should get as good a kicking as Palestinian terrorists?"

Shame on you, sir. Shame on you.

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Confirm or deny

"If Israel say 'we will never use stolen or falsified British identity documents in any overseas operations' in what way is that an admission that they were involved in the assassination?"

The problem is, if you start making statements - especially ones which have to be quite carefully worded - then people have a habit of asking you to clarify stuff, e.g. to confirm or deny a slightly differently worded statement which does imply guilt. I'd certainly expect a journo to tweak the statement to include the words 'in the future', which obviously leads on to 'what about in the past'.

And if you start making statements, and then stop at a certain point, that's very much an admission of guilt. Which is why Israel don't confirm or deny any of these kinds of things... so that you can't infer anything from their decision not to make a statement.

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Anonymous Coward

@Ian 22

I don't get it. You're suggesting that all Israeli citizens are death camp survivors? And/or all Palestinians are terrorists? Or is it that the Palestinians were really responsible for the concentration camps? Lets have some clarity in your argument.

Listen up. The majority of people all around the world are ordinary people try to make the best of the life they have to live. It's their "leaders" who fuck it up for them. Disliking a nation because of the way it's politicians and civil servants (HAH!) behave is ridiculous. To do so based on historic behaviour is ludicrous.

Anybody who persecutes somebody based on their nationality or ethnicity is beneath contempt. It's no good the Israeli government trying to justify what amounts to apartheid and terrorism purely on the grounds of the historical persecution of Jews by Arabs. If you look at the history of the persecution of Jews there have been a lot of villains. Is it OK for the Israeli government to pick on their descendents too? What about the English. Should the Israelis be allowed to treat the English the way they treat arabs because of what Edward Longshanks did?* Lets not even mention what happened when an Austrian lead the Germans to commit massive atrocities against Jews. What does that allow Israel to do to Germany or even Austria?

An example of this sort of stupid behaviour can be found in "Irish Americans" (or more accurately those Americans who can claim an Irish great great grandfather**) who hate the English because of what British politicians have done to Ireland in the past. This makes little sense. It makes even less sense to somebody like me who is descended from Irish and English stock, even more confusingly some of my Irish lineage comes from a planted English family (of Norman origin) who themselves became rebels. If that little history doesn't make a mockery of a view of a nation based on a small portion of it's populace I don't know what does.

* To those living north of the border: He really was a nasty bastard wasn't he?

** I knew an Irish American who was devastated when he found his one Irish ancestor was an eastern european who had changed his name to McCarthy on his arrival in New York.

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Stop

RE: @Ian 22

"....It's no good the Israeli government trying to justify what amounts to apartheid...." Arabs are living as Israeli citizens in Israel with full Israeli rights, including ownership of land. Israel has not demanded those Arabs leave in any peace deal. Meanwhile, it is illegal for Jews to own land in Jordan or many of the other Arab countries. The Palestinian Authority has made it illegal for a "Palestinian" to sell land in the West Bank to a Jew. In Gaza you would simply be shot by HAMAS. The PA wants ALL Jews to leave the West Bank as part of a peace settlement, whether they are settlers or living in what was historically Jewish villages or areas. HAMAS has a stated aim of ethnically cleansing all Israel. I think you best go read up on the definiton of apartheid before you make yourself look any stupider.

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FAIL

Ahhh religion...

...isn't it just fine and dandy?

NOT

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@Matt Bryant

Hmm your history of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon is sketchy to say the least, I guess you missed the invasion in the early 80's led by that bastion of peace Ariel Sharon.

The Israelis invaded in 1982 and occupied Beirut and spent three years slowly withdrawing to the buffer zone which they sat in for a further 15 years.

You overlook the role of the Lebanese Christian Militia, supported by Israel in the 1982 massacres of civilians in refugee camps as well.

Your use of the term "fakeistinians" is also extremely racist and inflammatory but shows how little you value humanity.

On the one hand you cry anti semitism on the other you show yourself up as the racist you clearly are.

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Grenade

How long

will Israel get away with using "holocaust" as an excuse for outrageous behaviour on their part? Horrendous behaviour by Nazis doesn't excuse horrendous behaviour by what is in effect an ethnic Jewish state. The Israelis might do well to remember that the gas used in the Nazi gas chambers was developed by a Jew, Fritz Haber, who was the main architect of gas warfare in the First World War and who was obsessive about using gas to kill humans in warfare.

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