Peter Sunde Kolmisoppi is the most outspoken of the four men who founded BitTorrent tracker site The Pirate Bay in Sweden in 2003. In April last year Sunde, AKA BrokeP, saw a verdict go against him, Carl Lundström, Frederik Neij and Gottfrid Svartholm Warg. They were all found guilty by a Swedish court of being accessories to …
The guy from Sony said: ‘I feel that you raped me and raped my kids and you raped everybody I know and you're speaking to my face like you enjoyed it.'
The irony....it burns!
"The guy from Sony said: ‘I feel that you raped me and raped my kids and you raped everybody I know and you're speaking to my face like you enjoyed it.'"
Now there is a guy with no sense of perspective. Future politico?
> But it’s their work that we're talking about here, isn't it?
> No it’s not.
> The companies take everything. It's a screwed up movement, they suck them dry.
> You don’t need to get records pressed, or use distribution to shops anymore. The
> technology has been there for 10 years now, it’s made the old model redundant.
I've been selling my computer games independently over the Internet for the last 15 years. There's no record company taking a cut and "sucking me dry" as he says. It's just me, trying to earn a living to feed my family. Does the Pirate Bay draw any distinction between me and his little crusade against record companies? No. It gives all my hard work away for free even if I send a polite email asking them please not to. I'd like to meet him one day and punch him in the face to be honest.
As long as you assume than one "pirated copy" means one sale lost ...
... you'll feel like that.
But it is wrong, has been prooved wrong and don't stand scrutinity.
I don't know what games you do but there is a HUGE chance I was never exposed to them EVER. It is about the long tail.
And if your game was on TPB there is a big chance you had some sales from that too.
I for one, have bought game I played at friend or was handed as a copy.
And I am not alone doing that around me.
Even if I don't play much lately.
The sure thing is that I'll never buy a 'protected' musicCD or one of the new "'not online / no play" game sold by ubi soft.
Instead I recently bought Warband, $30, great gameplay and a tad of trust in the customer went a long way.
don't you think it should be - you know - up to him/her to decide whether s/he should market her game through TPB?
If it's such a great idea then the smart ones will be lining up to do it and will make a ton of money, and the people that hold out will die a death - market forces in action, right? But it's not right for you to say their IP should be ignored because it's in their own good - let them decide what's good for them and their product, and how they want to sell it.
Oh, boo hoo
Sounds like you've chosen a career path which doesn't support your family very well.
"if I send a polite email"
Has your stuff ACTUALLY been on TPB? Have you ACTUALLY sent an email? Or are you just saying "what if", because you're bitching that your stuff doesn't sell very well?
This would include a version of Risk?
Conquest was hardly an original idea, being yet another Risk clone. I have the crippled version on my machine here.
The main reason I don't have the full version is that I don't have a credit card or a paypal account. If I found a full copy on TPB I might be tempted to down load it, then again I might not. Either way, it's not a lost sale to you.
Getting all het up and emotional over it isn't going to solve anything, any more than the Sony guy's attitude did. Why not put the crippled version up as a torrent and increase your exposure, which might make you extra sales?
Either way, from what I have seen you do run a good service and I have enjoyed playing the game you wrote. Although you would like to take money off me that I could otherwise use to feed my family, if I ever met you in person I would buy you a beer.
Thanks Throatwobbler Mangrove, I think you're absolutely right. I give away free "Lite" versions of my games which anyone is allowed to download and share. That's the way I choose to market my games. It's ridiculous to think that it's a better idea to give the full version of your game away for free and then hope people will donate some money to you out of the goodness of their hearts. Us developers/marketers aren't stupid - if that method made us more money, we'd do it.
Why do you think so many independent developers have jumped on the iPhone bandwagon? Apple provide a platform where it's much harder to have your game pirated, so us devs are happy to drop the price right down to $1-$2. I don't plan to do any new games for Windows right now because it's just not worth my while. I'll stick to the AppStore.
> Sounds like you've chosen a career path which doesn't
> support your family very well.
Yes, maybe I made a mistake in choosing a career in digital media. But I'd see that as the fault of freetards rather than mine.
>Has your stuff ACTUALLY been on TPB? Have you ACTUALLY
> sent an email? Or are you just saying "what if", because you're
> bitching that your stuff doesn't sell very well?
Yes, I have written to torrent sites and they've all been happy to remove the links (but said that the links would probably get re-added soon anyway). At least they made an effort. I went to The Pirate Bay and they have a page saying basically don't bother emailing us to take down your copyrighted material because we don't give a shit. See: http://thepiratebay.org/contact
Oh, and my stuff does sell well BTW, but on the AppStore. My tax bill this year will be more than my salary was when I had a regular programming job the year before. I wonder if that's related to selling games on a platform that's much harder to pirate on?
@AC "Oh, Boo hoo"
I'm truly lost for words.
Gremlin Politico Assault and Flatter Batteries ....... Attacking AIdD Units with Sub Prime.
Conservative Conventional Thinking for Petrifying Stagnant Growth.
"I went to The Pirate Bay and they have a page saying basically don't bother emailing us to take down your copyrighted material because we don't give a shit. See: http://thepiratebay.org/contact" .... Sean O'Connor 1 Posted Monday 3rd May 2010 05:38 GMT.
There is also a being-fixed glitch in servers hosting copyleft material to the Blog and ITs Transparent Semantic Web of Inter Relative Advanced Networking Clouds of Information and Intelligence for Knowledgeable Source Supply of Extensive and Expensive Valued Assets, which is odd, irregular and unconventional .... http://forum.suprbay.org/showthread.php?tid=63377&page=1
And if it wasn't so Real would IT be a Dream Immersive Projection with Astute Tempest Technology Meme Management for Highly MkUltraSensitive Commend 42 Control Quantum Systems for Live Operational Virtual Environments. ........ with a Vast Choice Range of Feel the Pain and Glory of your Very Own Deed Journeys, made freely Available to leading to All Stations Chosen from Heaven to Hell. Imagine if your choice Delivered you the Terminus. What would have to Offer which was not already All Ready and already All Ready Already there? Something Miraculous and Magic towards the Center with Overwhelming Middle Ground Support for All working either Towards or Away from Both Extremely Optimistic Viewpoints,would surely be a Win Winner.
>Yes, maybe I made a mistake in choosing a career in digital media. But I'd see that as the fault
>of freetards rather than mine.
Why? Did you not know they were out there before you started, or something?
I bought Demigod after downloading it illegally, the single player was great even though the bots were retarded. I could see the potential and wanted to play on the internet servers so I forked out for the full game. Also saved the company the downspeed bandwidth as I could just update my CD-KEY when I purchased it online.
The torrent with your games has 12 (twelve) seeds. I think if you gave them away and asked for donations you'd be making more money than that. But I'm sure expecting to be paid for ideas you mooched ten years ago and polished to a fine sheen ever since is perfectly reasonable.
AC, because I don't want to get punched in the face.
I believe all the stuff about people moving on to new projects. Clever computer geeks get bored & move no to new challenges/projects. They are no longer involved with the company that does the 'bulletproof hosting' for Wikileaks (www.prq.se).
I suppose take downs are extremely difficult.
So what if ThePirateBay went down? There's always ISOhunt! When the Digital Economy Act comes into law, people will just INNOVATE. (You've wasted your time, Mandy!)
The 'rape' comment from the Sony BMG man was absurd! To use his anaology, he ought to expect a lot more. (You can't reverse innovation/technology)
Saving this quote for later
"I feel that you raped me and raped my kids and you raped everybody I know and you're speaking to my face like you enjoyed it.'"
I'm still laughing as I type this.
Facilitated free copying then turned up and said: let's do something that makes money.
I walks like blackmail and it quacks like blackmail....
Long prison sentences for TPB boys is a good solution
Just lock the scum boys up for 25 years and get on with life.
You are dumb. No matter if what they did was illegal or not, 25 years? I believe that any and all punishment should be directly equal to the crime. 25 years (the base sentence for murder) is not equal in this case. soo....stfu
Punishment equal to crime...
mmm, and a murderer stuffs up just a few dozen people's lives per murder at most. Pirate bay have been facilitating stealing the livelihood of hundreds of thousands... Lets say that by their actions they've (by reducing standard of living) , reduced the life expectancy of 10,000 people by 3 months: that's 2500 years of human life destroyed... Most murders scarcely manage (including efect on families etc) to take away more than a few hundred.
@Punishment equal to crime
Are you actually serious? I though troll when I read your first post but when you come back with this bizarre maths of yours it makes me wonder...
It's the same sort of logic that questions why a fraudster who steals millions gets a few months while an armed robber takes a hundred bucks and gets ten years. It's the sort of logic that measures a persons life in dollar terms. I think you are either an insurance underwritter or a criminal.
Punishment for who does the 'crime'
If there is a 'crime'.
Hang the knife-makers, shoot the messengers, but don't let anything get in the way of punting retarded, statistical shit.
FAIL for missing the point
"Let's say that"... No, let's not. Let's have some actual figures instead of some shit devised on a whim ... I don't sleep regularly, statistically that could cut my life expectancy by up to TEN years. Your three months is hardly a factor in that. Then there's smoking, doing drugs, and anything else a person can do which can affect their life expectancy, which can be as mundane as eating an overcooked burger in a greasy spoon (burnt = carcinogen, possible vCJD, other food poisoning from improper storing/handling/hygiene).
Note, especially, that in your freaky 2500 years equation, NOBODY ACTUALLY DIES. This is like saying if the investment bankers stop dicking with the pension funds (which causes hardship to many old people), then they can instead murder some random cute girl in a shopping mall once a month because, hey, they are looking out for the many. The logic just doesn't add up. The figures are hokum.
Now please look at http://www.negativland.com/albini.html which may or may not be correct, but at least the figures look plausible. This is important, because my accusation of you being FAIL is for arguing whether or not TPB guys should or should not burn in hell. You see, what happens to them is neither here nor there. Cheapskate freetardery aside, the point of this was evidently to attempt to show how screwed up the media companies perspective is. I don't, personally, think it is a point they made, however you cannot deny there is something highly suspicious about said companies swinging changes in law to give them more power and access and control than is ever justified by their creations, especially earlier versions of the French legislation (I live in France...) that permitted notification by email and then letter with NO obligation to state what said infringing content actually is, the ability to disconnect your internet access for a specific period without judicial recourse (dismissed as unconstitutional), plus the explicit ability to auto-spy on you for specific lengths of time following the sending of said email and/or letter. Does this sort of behaviour seem justified for ripping off a copy of "Avatar" or whatever is hot, given that there already exists an acceptable legal remedy for doing such? But hey, taking freetards to court is such a bloody bother, it is far easier to work with plenty of FUD and with a little luck they might even pull off accusing their critics with a bit of freetardery (especially if they don't have to state who/what/when). It's all good.
And you, dear Anon Coward, think this is all for the good of the artist. What a sheep. Or maybe a shill. Kindly check your maths regarding the link I posted above, and ask yourself how much damage TPB could really have done to the scores of "lesser" artists (i.e the ones without millions in the bank and private jets) when their own labels, those that claim to represent them, are busy screwing them over pretty well.
It isn't about freetards, they have always existed (remember "home taping is killing music"?), it is about the Cheyne-Stokes respiration of the media industry's model. The writing is on the wall, and for some reason it appears to be easier to corrupt our judicial systems than to reexamine their way of doing business. Well, whatever... I guess you missed all that in wanting to suggest the (unproven/unquantified) loss of 2500 years of life as being worse than actually murdering somebody.
That's one of the most stupid things I've ever read.
> The companies take everything. It's a screwed up movement, they suck them dry.
You know, I think this is just "the big lie". If you look at the Sunday Times rich list there are a lot more artists than record company executives on it... Sure every artist things the company takes too big a slice, and maybe they are right, but then I think the taxman takes too big a slice out of my income.
I should have made a note of it, but I saw a piece on the BBC web site about the psychological tricks used by people who brake the law to justify it to themslves, and the freetards hit every one that interview is full of that kind of self justifying deception... Me, I'm with the Sony guy, but then there was a time when some of my income came out of music...
There is a good reason
why you will not find Record company execs on the rich list... it's because all the big record companies (like Sony) are publicly listed companies, so the obscene profits go to the shareholders (which often includes other corporations).
As for the rich artists. notice how it's only the artists who have been around long enough to extricate themselves from the typical record contracts and negotiate deals that give them a bigger slice of the pie. The artists who have been around for only a handful of years, even if they are wildly successful are only earning pennies.
The Sony guys statement is extremely ironic given that the record company business model basically boils down to raping both the artists and the consumer.
AC said:- "so the obscene profits go to the shareholders (which often includes other corporations)."
Yep - upvoted for that bit.
Buying a PS3
Removing functions that was described on it and not giving refunds (partition PS3 for linux OS)....the only response i have is:
"I feel that you raped me and raped my kids and you raped everybody I know and you're speaking to my face like you enjoyed it.".
That took away your livelihood did it? The money you use to feed and put your kids through school etc?
No, didn't think so ...
Using Time as a weapon
"We’re arguing because we can only do this before the election in Sweden on 19 September. We said any time between 1-14 September is OK. But they’re saying it can’t happen until 20 September, which is obviously for political reasons."
Without taking sides one way or the other, but trying to get some balance.... Forget Piracy for a moment...
I see this tactic used in the United States all the time now. In conjunction with legislating law which protects corrupt officials crimes--especially when it comes to elections!
Irregular and Unconventional Disruptive is the New PostModern Virtual Traditional
"Instead Sunde is residing in Berlin beavering away at a new project..." ...... Anything more than just interesting? Something Cloudy and SMART would be Real Nice and have Lots of Layers of Instant Fabulous Friends which would be Capable of Doing Anything and Everything ..... such is the Nature of Internet Space Powers.
It's not about them...
The court case, and the complainers, are missing the point. TPB and other torrenting sites cannot be blamed on a few people. If these four guys hadn't set up TPB, somebody else would have. Piracy is part of internet culture. Trying to stop torrenting by sueing them is like trying to stop the tide with a sandbag.
My thoughts exactly
I couldn't have said it better myself. People are always going to download music/movies/TV shows just because its easy to do, and they can. Trying to scare people into stopping by suing less than 0.0001% of the perpetrators won't get you anywhere and you'll end up spending more on lawyers than you would have on lost revenue.
The only solution would be to change the product itself in such a way that the end user would get a lot more out of the product by having a legitimate copy, such as an online service with new/changing content
. Offering "special deals" with lower prices also helps curb people from piracy. Just look at Steam game sales.
*Never* about the artists, always the *rights* holders
When do you see an "artist" in court?
When do you see record companies in court?
> never about the artists, always about the rights holders
Well fancy that. Do you suppose it might just be because dealing with that sort of crap is what the record companies get their cut for?
So Sony make pots and kettles now too?
Hey Rge, where's the 'I'm splitting my sides' icon?
I'll use the chopper as a roflcopter for now.
let sony with it's glass windows be the first to cast a stone
Rape? Let's talk about rape in this business.
How about outsourcing jobs to undercut the US market and piggishly profit from it.
How about implementing anti-piracy firms that use gestapo like tactics to threaten people.
If you make a decent product, for a decent price, and your company isn't outsourcing or doing other immoral things then people will buy your stuff.
People aren't going to buy your stuff if your outsourcing to cut costs, but at the same time have your name on a stadium or have television commercials.
Im not pointing specifically at Sony here, but wake up and smell the roses.
I've been handed this liberal argument for years that "how would you like your line of work stolen for free". Peoples work is stolen, it's called Taxation without representation, we pay about 30+% of it here each year.
Maybe sony should just close up and sell womens shoes, can't pirate those, but you can make em with child labor sony!
Charged for Thinking and Making Money from Thought ... Nice Easy Work when Shared in Deed, indeed
Intellectual Property is always just an Idea and probably also a Number of Thoughts strung together to create a Bigger Idea. No one can claim them as exclusively theirs, and if one can get some Smug Mug in a Zoot Suit in a Phishy Business which preys on and milks and/or supports and nurtures Intellectual Property Artists/Generators/Source Code Lode Wells to pay you for those fabulous ideas, Bravo, but don't for a moment think that those ideas shared must be paid for by everyone, whenever they are provided originally for Free from Nothing but Thought.
The only good pirate is dead
The only good pirate is dead or in prison.
"I can’t prove that I don’t have a bank account somewhere with lots of money."
Neither can I.
What strange arguments come up here. Of course everyone needs money. How you get it is not always connected with where the value lies. In this case we are making a random connection with artistic value and a digital record - to me that is absurd.
Since when is a recording "music"? I've played music for over half a century, (yes, I play well) and although I agree that getting money for anything is indeed a way to make a living, a recording is still only a recording. Let's pay musicians when they play and not for a recording of when they once did. That is a random gate to guard.
In a digital economy, the people who pay for a recording are the ones getting raped. I'd be in favour of paying all artists just for their existence, but not for a digital copy of something they've once done.
If royalties represented real value then what is stopping everyone else from also demanding them? I can't imagine paying royalties on everything that we use daily. I've paid the plumber, electrician, bricklayer, and all the other artists for their work and now I get to use the fruits of their labour. Charging for the use of a recording used to be a viable way to get some well deserved money into the hands of musicians but it is a random, and no longer viable, way to do it. Let's find some other way then.
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AIMissive to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. <ping> [Send]
You might have a point if a program could be created in a day - but not even then
If you fancy playing a copy of the latest RPG, are you prepared to pay the salaries of upwards of a hundred programmers for a year? If not, perhaps other methods apply.
Likewise, every time I play a copy of Sibelius, I'm not fond of hiring an entire orchestra for an hour..
A brickie is fully entitled to try selling his services on a royalty basis, but unsurprisingly the market doesn't support it. Who knows, maybe someone will one day create houses sold on a royalty basis, where all contractors have ongoing royalty payments.
All things considered, I think people paying for a recording are doing quite well. I still prefer physical media, but given that it's possible to buy single tracks now, consumers are managing to avoid paying over the odds for albums mostly filled with crap.
Personally I'd rather pay for recordings - it's very convenient, and often cheaper than dashing all around the country after music I like.
How come Sony et al make DVD burners and the discs to go with them?
Surely that encourages more pirating than any internet site.
<crook #1> I've just downloaded the latest film from pirate bay
<crook #2> Great, lets use this sony disc burner and DVDs to make 10 000 copies and sell them at £5 a pop 3 months before Sony release the official DVD at £30 a pop
3 months later
<sony exec> Our new DVD release is'nt selling, It must be those evil pirate bay people... lets sue 'em
<underling> Hey boss, got the disc research division on the phone, they figured out a way of making a burner that will record 3 terabytes onto a disc.
<sony exec> Great, price them at £200 each and shove them on the market asap
There was a time it was possible to make a living in much of the UK by being a miner, but the world changed, economics changed, and the industry now supports far less people. Maybe it is time for record label executives and artists to follow their lead and find something else to pay the bills if music is not working for them. The world has changed and if they can not adapt or deal with it they should find another way to feed themselves and their families and bloody stop whining all the time.
Has the record industry done a Scientology?
Is it me or have most of the "Pirates must die" posts been written by the same person?
I for one would like to know what "game" Sean O'Connor 1 third from top wrote that got ripped on pirate bay.
Unfortunately there are two types of developer
1. Enthusiasts who create for purely for the pleasure of creation ( you can spot their code it does what it says on the tin and is freely updated )
2. Money Grubbers who create nothing themselves but employ coders and sell the latters work at massive profit ( again easy to spot it typicaly doesn't work properly and the updates are mostly bug fixes I think because thesoftware requirements are not defined by the user but by marketting bods)
Unfortunately what normally happens is that if the Enthusiasts attempt to sell their finished product they end up going bust or being bought out by the money Grubbers.
I agree it is wrong to take something without permission however if the author posted his paypal account details and his work is worth something he would get paid. Buskers don't hold a knife to their audiences throat but I have noticed they still get paid even when they are rubbish.
IP is all theft nobody works alone, so why should only one person benefit from the communal effort
The evidence doesn't support that
Just as in other markets, sometimes it is simply not economic to create the product the market desires.
It's possible for both commercial and indie game creators to make money from their wares, but it differs based on the platform and the genre. In short : some games are pirated much more than others. Anyone making a FPS without deep pockets needs their head examining.
Neither is it true that 'if the author posted their paypal account they would get paid'. Again, direct evidence does not support that. There are certain price points that work, although that's a complex situation too. The baseline is : people attach value to items, and pricing at a level associates that level of value with the item. Don't believe me? Go and check out some of the stats for game developers willing to release their sales figures.
As to 'IP is all theft, nobody works alone' - each person creates their part of the jigsaw and either sells it or gives it away. That is the end of their revenue. If they want to keep getting paid, they insist on runtime licenses.. You can't, however, make a decision to sell for free/flat fee then complain when it's included in a multimillion selling title and you receive the same small fee.
Without wishing to get into the argument about whether Sean's games are worth anything I would say :
a) They're selling on the iPhone but not Windows. Clearly they have value. Both markets are large, so it may or may not be true the Windows market has certain flaws.
b) Some of his games may be derivative, but you're describing games full stop there. A lot of FPSes/RPGs/shmups are playable but lack innovation. Where do you draw the line where self appointed arbiters of taste decide it is worth paying money for?
If there are only an oft quoted four original plots in existance, why isn't everyone only buying four games/books etc and reading them repeatedly rather than buying or pirating extra media?
Sorry Sean is this you?
Nice, Sean if someone did rip off your code they should be locked up but not for theft.
I seem to recognise some of the game themes, I presume you credited the original idea developers, rather than say just changing something minor and selling it as an original concept
I don't want to burst his bubble
but it would cost me 28 quid to get a CD with his 13 games on. For 8 quid (the additional cost he charges for burning a CD and mailing it) I can get Medieval II Total War on free delivery (I mean come on, you're charging $20 for Conquest?). Which covers (significantly better) about 4 of the games. Adding on Madden 2010 is 18 quid which covers the American footbal angle. Or let's say you prefer the board game angle, you can get Fritz 12 for 18 quid (my preferred analysis engine), or say you prefer the arcadey thing, which looks kind of like asteroids, how about getting a pack of 200 arcade games for £6 (Games Arcade)?
Your games aren't selling well on PC has nothing to do with piracy, it's just that they're horribly outdated, and whatever the reviews say, if someone sees those screenshots (they look like they've been designed for a BBC..), or even the word turn-based, they won't have any inclination to buy it, especially for the extortionate price you are charging, when there's far better looking, better playing, and more functionally rich games for cheaper. I suspect that the reason they do well on the mobile platforms is because, in my experience, mobile games from big publishers are an afterthought, and generally shit, overpriced, and graphically either poor, or resource-intensive, thus gameplay is more of an issue, and most big publishers don't seem to have a clue about getting gameplay right on mobile platforms. Your games are the exact sort of game that people will generally not feel the need to buy, but might see it as an interesting distraction on a torrent site. If even one of those people buys your game I would count illegal downloading as a success for you.
My advice is to concentrate on mobile platforms or at least target game ideas that haven't been built upon significantly in the last twenty years. At the very least re-examine what you're charging for games..
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