The Conservatives have dropped their opposition to the government's planned changes to the National DNA Database for fear of being branded soft on crime in the run-up to the election. The opposition had planned to use the Parliamentary "wash-up" this week to insist fewer DNA profiles be retained from people arrested but not …
Grow some fucking balls and stand on principle, retention of innocent peoples DNA is a crime against privacy and human dignity. For fucks sake, now I need to go pour myself a nice steaming hot cup of RAGE..
Politicians don't have any principles.
So Johnson (basically a prick) is saying people found not guilty, or against whom charges are dropped, are criminals anyway.
He should be prosecuted for such behaviour.
But we ARE all criminals...
...that's the whole point of the currently developing system. It's not a side effect, it's the prime intention.
State control only becomes total when they can potentially criminalise every single member of society. Then, if you step out of line, there's always something you can be accused of. Preferably something like terrorism or paedophilia that even your friends and neighbours will want to distance themselves from.
It's a tried and tested system that's never failed before, as long as two major factors can be assured - that most people don't care as long as it's someone else, and that those that remain cling to the delusion that "it couldn't happen here".
In for a penny...
... in for a pound. If I'm going to be criminalised anyway I may as well go on a drug-fuelled, politician assassinating, gun rampage.
Scary thing I've heard lately was a radio "public service announcement" encouraging people to report anything "suspicious" - having boarded up windows or buying fertiliser for instance - and informing the police. In 21st century Britain it's not "Reds under the bed" but terrorists and paedophiles - but it's essentially the same deal.
Didnt michael 'nosferatu' howard remove the presumption of innocence, you know that whole 'pipple! priiiiiisin werksssssss' groove he had going on for a bit, til he was monumentaly paxoed for once and for all :D
@ CD001 1148
I know the radio ad you mean. I'm currently waiting to have my doors kicked in by armed police, because:
* I have a couple of windows covered at the moment (due to building work in the house)
* my wife is Asian
* I have a beard
* my wife buys compost etc (for her allotment)
* We have weapons (e.g. swords, staves) in the house, which we carry outside (we're both long-term martial artists, and take them to our dojos)
* I always wear a big leather jacket, even when it's "unseasonably warm to do so".
* I've recently bought a new mobile phone, meaning we now have about a dozen handsets between us.
Vote for us!
We broke our word on a key policy but if you vote for us we'll go back and undo it at the time when you have no say for five years.
Just goes to show the folly of electing politicians to Parliament, and some fools want to add proportional representation, where you can ONLY elect political parties to Parliament
Do some homework...
PR does NOT necessarily mean that only parties can stand. It had that effect last time in Scotland only because of our ludicrous "list" system for additional members.
Proper PR in fully-elected multi-member constituencies (lke our council wards) means that the genuinely liked and the least-disliked candidates are elected, not just the one that everyone voted for to keep they one they really, really didn't like out.
Soft on crime...
So making sure innocent people are struck off a register of SUSPECTS for the police to fish against is being soft on crime?
Just goes to show how wrong their thinking is at a base level, sadly the same goes for ALL the parties, which generic liar do you want to shaft you for the next 5 years, please tick a,b or c :(.
One rule for them...
And yet only last August the Tories demanded - and got - Damian Green's DNA removed from the database after his arrest. No six year wait for Tory MPs. Even if we get a Tory government they'll be happy to hold the DNA of innocent plebs for three years or more, whilst the elected elite get wiped immediately.
Why won't the Tories make the argument that retaining the DNA of innocent people on a criminal database is not being "soft on crime"? Why won't they point out that Sally Ann Bowman's killer would have been apprehended anyway, as no party is suggesting that DNA should not be checked against the database on arrest? I think the elecorate can cope with a reasoned argument.
As a former Labour voter my vote will go for another party this time because the government has done away - through DNA retention and enhanced CRBs etc - with the presumption of innocence. I want a law and order policy that consists of more than yelling "Ian Huntley, Ian Huntley" every time the government is challenged on basic civil liberties.
I always thought that fiddling the expenses was a crimina;l offence so perhaps some friendly plod would like to arrest the f**king lot of them on sus and then take specimens and see how long this piece of criminal stupidity lasts then?
Politician in about face shock
I'm harder than you. So there!
I just love the wash-up.
It's such fun seeing the playground antics.
Well, I wasn't sure who to vote for this time 'round - And it's not going to be Tory now. Is it REALLY so hard to develop a spine?
re: Develop a spine
According to scientists, it may well have taken several millions years to develop a spine. However, politicians seem to be able to lose theirs in just a few years... (Along with morals, sense of justice, intelligence, common sense...)
***""If we have our way, the [Crime and Security] Bill will not pass, and then it will be for a Conservative government to make rapid reforms to how our DNA database works and to ensure that its use is proportionate and that we do not continue to store the DNA of people accused of minor infractions who, in reality, have done nothing wrong.""***
Erm, would that be "done nothing wrong" as in " Not arrested", "Not charged", "Not convicted", or what? And how is someone maliciously accused of rape different from someone maliciously accused of shoplifting?
This is not a grey area. If you are convicted of an indictable offence then you go on the database. If you are not convicted, you don't go on it. If you are convicted and later cleared you come off it.
While I was never going to vote Labour, my intentions have now suffered a major swing towards the Lib-Dems.
A plea for common sense
I wish they would stop wheeling out Sally Ann Bowman's mother whenever they need proof that indefinite DNA retention is a good things. While it is perfectly understandable that she feels very strongly about such a horrific crime, the truth is her arguement is fundamentally flawed. Sally Ann Bowman's killer was picked up using DNA sampled after he was arrested for a pub brawl he was involved in AFTER her murder. Therefore he would've been caught anyway. I don't think anyone is suggesting that people arrested for something shouldn't have their DNA taken and tested against the register of DNA from unsolved crimes, just that if there are no hits that DNA profile should be deleted straight away. Mrs Bowman, whilst I am truely sorry for the loss you and your family have suffered, this approach to DNA evidence would still have caught your daughters killer, and left the civil liberties of the rest of us (who have't and will never kill anybody) intact.
Has anyone noticed just how hypocritical all the main parties are being during "Wash Up" (Or "Democracy Rape" as I'm now considering calling it)
Vote for change - Vote for a change!
When all is said and done..... a lot more has been said than done.....
Election Promises mean nothing. Vote for somebody new.
That will give them a shock!
Soft on crime by allowing a crime to continue...?
Labour, nope. Tory, nope. How is LibDem? And who else that isn't a nutjob party is left anyway?
Vote for the nut jobs....
They cannot possibly make a worse mess?
It might just apply incentive to the correct part of the anatomy of the other lying thievin bunch.
VOTE for a HUNG Parliament, PASS THE ROPE I'll do it.
Make a statement
spoil your ballot paper by writing something like "I'd like to vote for a democracy please" right across the middle.
I'd like to see the highest election turn-out for YEARS with the highest proportion of spoiled ballots ever... maybe, just maybe, they might get the hint that we're sick of the fucking lot of them.
Yah, I'll go with that!
Done it for the last two elections, last one prophetically said ' None of the lying, cheating, thieves!'
Re: Make a Statement
Ballot spoiling is for egocentric retards.
No one gives a shit what you write on your ballot (and no one other than the counter will see it anyway).
All you're doing is adding to the voter turnout numbers (and legitimising whatever the outcome happens to be).
When have you ever seen the number of spoiled ballots reported in the media?
Blank ballots, multiple selections, unclear and various other "incorrectly" completed slips all count as "spolied" ballots, so even if the spoiled ballot total were to be counted and reported (which it won't) it doesn't show that there is increased political disaffection, it only shows that more people were too stupid to fill in their slip correctly. The motive behind the spoiling of a ballot slip is never recorded.
Either vote (and influence the outcome), or don't vote (and reduce turnout numbers - which always scares politicians because it's harder for them to claim a "mandate") but don't kid yourself that some half-arsed comment on a ballot slip will have politicians hanging on your every scribbled word. They won't even get to see it.
Is a prize dick at the best of times. No surprise he's changed his mind for no apparent reason, probably the wind changed. Or, more likely, Cameron has told him to stop speaking, due to him making a tit of himself every time he opens his mouth.
What would happen if we could arrange for every party's leader and (shadow) minister to lose their seats at the election? Say, make sure Gordon Brown loses Kirkaldy, Cameron & Clegg lose Witney and Sheffield, get rid of the Millibands, Grayling and the rest of them.
If nothing else, it might be entertaining watching the MPs who do get elected running about like headless chickens wondering WTF to do now! And let's face it, it couldn't be much worse than the prospect of any of the 3 becoming Supreme Leader Elect.
If I had a Facebook and a way too much time I'd start a campaign to do just that
Do it Please, PLEASE.
that's me sorted then.
I don't want Brown in Number 10, and now i dont want tories. Seems i need to somehow run for parliament in many seats, get a majority and then run the country my-bleedin-self!
Run for parliament
Sounds like a good plan to me, but unfortunately most people that believe they could run the country end up driving taxis or cutting hair.
It has the gunpowder stains and the plan of some cellars in the pocket.
re : "thats me sorted then"
".... run the country my-bleedin-self!"
You are Oliver Cromwell and I claim my £5.
what a bunch of fairies.
This is merely pragmatism. They're not in a situation where they can argue about it for a week, and at least the landline and extra cider taxes got dropped as part of this washing up.
The issue will need revisiting with a calm head in the next parliament anyway - as the EU commissariat won't like it.
So why pass it at all then ?
Laws once passed are hard to repeal or even change.
Much better if they are never passed in the first place,.
Labour fighting on high principles I see
They're going to drag the mother of a murdered girl around the TV studios? How does that help the woman begin to get on with her life and heal the grief? Even if she wanted to do this, Alan Johnson and his bully boys should have said 'no' this is the wrong thing to do.
As for the Conservatives - come on, we know they haven't had any principles since the repeal of the Corn Laws.
Orwell was right. They are all the same :(
This Parliamentary "wash-up" period looks like a nightmare way to rush all kinds of bad laws through?! ... Control over our DNA is fundamentally important, yet even this they are rushing through!. :(
Also it doesn't seem to matter which party we talk about, because they all ultimately want and seek the power to control people, so they keep showing they can only think in terms of ways to seek ever more control over people. So ever more databases to tag and control everyone. Which is just wonderful because with each move, we slide towards an ever more Police State Orwellian scrutiny and control over our lives.
To make matters even worse (as I briefly mentioned in the Mandybill), at this point in time, the Labour MP's don't care how they vote in this wash-up period, as they are probably planning their new high paid jobs in European politics or planning their move back into high paid business jobs, where they can profit from their powerful connections in politics they have built up over the years. Whilst the MP's in other parties can deflect blame by saying it was done under Labour's final weeks of rule over us.
It seems the whole lot of them, regardless of which party they are from, they all seem determined to slowly drag our society into an ever more Orwellian nightmare and no matter who gets in, they are all determined to continue this course of action no matter what any of us say.
The more I see the more I'm convinced this problem isn't going to be solved by any election. Politicians are fundamentally this way inclined due to their desire to seek power over others, so they see gaining control as their only course of action. Some of them lie about their true goals more than others, (pretending not to be so power driven) but ultimately they are all the same in this one regard. They all want power over people so they all want ways to gain power over people. So this is going to get ever worse until society stands up to all Politicians, to stop how they are behaving and treating everyone, but I can't see that happening for a while, so things are going to keep getting progressively ever more Orwellian, as this tyranny continues to grow in our society. Even our DNA isn't safe from their desire to control. :(
It seems whichever party we vote in we are doomed to this same Orwellian fate. Labour have shown how controlling they are. Liberal Democrats have not a hope in hell of getting in and have a very two faced leader who at times shows the same kind of Machiavellian cunning and duplicity seen with so many politicians. Meanwhile the UKIP and BNP are hardliners in disguise and would take us even faster into an Orwellian state. Ironically that leaves the Conservatives, who are really a right wing party as our lesser of many evils!. They all seem as bad as each other in some ways?!. I wish I could vote None Of The Above as a protest, but even that won't change anything, but then nothing is going to stop this social tyranny decline until everyone in society stands up to the control freaks attempts to undermine our society and that won't be stopped by any election. :(
Society seems to be getting so frighteningly messed up. :(
I wish I could find somewhere else in the world to live, but sadly even the other countries look like they are getting just as messed up as we are, but we are just ahead of the curve. :(
I really wonder what Orwell would have made of all this. Not least the shocking fact we now have 5.6 million DNA profiles?! ... Surely they are not all suspects?! ... Also what really constitutes a valid reason for keeping DNA?. How about finding DNA at a crime scene and so they get to keep it. In that case we are all suspects, because if we ever go anywhere where some time later a crime is committed (e.g. a bank or a shop) where some time later forensics pickup DNA, like a stray hair dropped at a scene etc.. then we are all doomed to risk ending up on this DNA profile database?!
It seems we are all doomed to this increasing tyranny whoever gets in. Sadly the more I see, the more it looks like watching a slow motion increasingly frightening massive disaster in the making. :(
So now we have the repercussions of the DNA and Maddy Bill to take in on the same day. Its one hell of an Orwellian slide day today. :(
8 separate mentions of Orwell in less than 800 words?
Mine's the one with the thesaurus.
Why do so many people list the BNP but not the Green Party?
Would they be any worse?
We should send Osama a list of all arranged political meetings together with invitations for his disciples to attend...
Result .... No Politicians ... massive reduction in available suicide bombers. Win - Win as I see it.
Not too sure about the Joke Icon though!
"We should send Osama a list of all arranged political meetings together with invitations for his disciples to attend..."
Careful now, this is close to inciting terrorist activity.
How good do you look in an orange jumpsuit?
Left - Right is dead
Whether you support Labour or the Tories, they're both clearly in favour of authoritarian big government, and there's really not a lot else to choose between them. That's the message that the Tories have just sent us.
The new political axis is authoritarian / libertarian. What this country desperately needs is a truly libertarian party, and for it to be elected while we still have some vestiges of democratic government to save. Leave the current political parties to continue down their chosen road for another couple of decades, and we won't.
nah what we need is
A benevolent dictatorship under Vince Cable. At least when he prevaricates, avoids answering the question and casts doubts on the other parties plans I don't feel like I've been insulted, smacked with a hammer and molested in the process like the others do. For examples please refer to Moron Brown's performance on the Today programme this morning and no doubt Shamarons tomorrow
Seems he's as bad as the rest of them
I was something of a Vince fan, too, till I heard him on Question Time a couple of weeks ago saying he thought it would be a good idea to make strikes illegal for some groups of workers. He was referring to the National Rail dispute at the time. So he's another just like the rest, and there'd be nothing benevolent about a dictatorship under him.
Despicable, spineless toads
First we have last nights embarrassing fiasco of "democracy in action" and now this.
What is it they are so frightened of?
The list of people I might consider voting for gets ever shorter...
If you want to be hard on crime...
Don't give people an ASBO asking them not to break the law again - do them for it!
If a judge says 15 years, make them serve 15 years BEFORE you start talking about if they are reformed or a danger to the public. Then AFTER they have served their time, look at parole as a provisional release until they have proved themselves safe for release.
Look into what crimes are actually a problem to people (like yobos vanalising everything, beating up anybody, serial house burglers, etc.) Target them instead of photographers or people with japanese cartoons of women with small breasts.
If the prisons are too full, give people other things to do to appologise to society. Pick up all the litter in public places, remove all the dandilions from school football pitches, wash all the grafitti off everything, install giant hamster wheels and make them generate green electricity...
They are just avoiding the dead mother syndrome
The conservatives know that labour will trot out the mother to make them look bad. Crying out loud this ia party not above using the memory of their dead leader baby to score points. Hopefully once in power they will get rid of this orwellian abomination!
I love this wash-up nonsense
We've been screwed on the DNA issue so that the Government will continue to know everything about everyone, but at least Cider is going to stay cheaper so that we can more easily forget everything about ourselves instead!
I could write a thousand words on this subject...
but I can sum it up in five-
THEY HAVE LOST MY VOTE
Darling claims £40m to cancel ID cards.
Devil's advocate for a moment
The Tories have voted in favour of a reduction of the length of time innocents have the police peering over their shoulders.
Had they voted against it they'd have been voting for indefinite DNA retention to continue.
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