Dell has told a Linux-loving Reg reader that he can't receive a refund on the copy of Windows 7 that shipped with his new Dell netbook because it was bundled with the machine for "free". In October, another Reg reader succeeded in gaining a $115 (£70.34) refund from the computer maker after he rejected the licence for Microsoft' …
Surely Dell miss the point
If I buy the system from Dell with the OS pre-installed, and then when reading the Licence Agreement decide that I do not want be bound by the terms and reject the license agreement I am not rejecting the entire machine. Therefore you return the license to the retailer for a refund, not the whole machine.
Same story with Acer
I recently tried to get a refund from Acer who very obligingly offered me one. The catch? They wanted to charge more than the value of the refund for the "repair" in their "service centre".
The whole point of the license having the opt out clause is to make it possible to avoid being bound by agreements that weren't part of the original terms of sale and thus not fall foul things like "unfair contracts". (I bought the laptop through Amazon, so the sale contract came from them with no mention OEM license terms on any pre-installed software). Amazon fob you off to the manufacture and they have done a pretty cynical job of making it hard to get a refund or win court proceedings.
Having to pay to avoid some frankly quite unpalatable license terms that weren't part of my original purchase is nothing short of vexatious. On the bright side they did call removing windows a repair...
So being born ginger is a lifestyle choice, how does that work then ? And just how times have you tried to order a pc without Windows ? Let's just say that your analogy fails, big time.
The problem is: Often you cannot order it without the ham, as Dell will not always test their laptops with the OS of choice of the customer. Like the Precision M6500, you can only order with Windows variants...
i agree that they are idiots for buying a WINDOWS laptop then wanting windows.
why bell from dell anyway? i guess he's a geek as he is on linux but they surely he knows enough about IT to avoid dell like the plague?
at my last company one of the contractors went to buy a new laptop from dixons (again. why? are some people idiots?) and said he wanted one without windows as he wanted to put linux on. they said you cant do that and you would invalidate the warantee. he was so outraged he wrote into linux magazine and hey said that due to some linux problems linux HAS been known to fry some hardware. and this is the linux people speaking.
if i go to buy a new car i dont buy it then say can i have a £100 rebate for the cd player as im using my own.
for laptops just source one from elsewhere.
my real issue is that on most machines you see these days the OS is tied to some god awful restore app meaning you can only instal the OS on that laptop. meaning if they die the license is useless. this needs to be stopped. at least you could then resell (not officially of course) the OS and recoup some costs.
The point is you _can't_ order the pizza without the ham. Every pizza comes with ham, whether you want it or not. You have to buy the pizza with the ham on it, and then take it off. You've paid for the ham which you didn't want it.
Is that simple enough for you to understand?
Bog off, pizza face.
This isn't just a matter of geeks and weirdos.
My parents bought a system built by a private individual who had no OEM agreement with Microsoft. He therefore used a retail package. The computer's a bit gubbed, so they want a new one. Now everyone -- Microsoft, PC World, EVERYONE -- keeps telling them that Windows is restricted to the PC it came with, so they need to buy a new copy. No-one ever asks if it was retail, they just immediately try to sell you more of the same software.
It's next to impossible to buy a PC now without paying Microsoft for something that you may already have or may not want to buy. It's like forcing me to buy new dining room chairs when all I need is the table. It's monopolistic and unfair practice.
I bought a laptop for 350, refused the lisence and then installed ubuntu. I later had hardware issues that the HP Tech support refused to help me with until I installed winblows which I refused to do so,,,, I'm curious, . Shouldn't this chap also ask for a refund on tech support since these companies effectively drop the warranty when you use a real OS?? I'm too lazy to pursue this myself since it was only 350 dollars and I doubt I could get much benifit by doing so but if there was a larger lawsuit that I could piggy back on without any effort from myself, I would.
Who on Earth
Wants a plain pineapple pizza?
How much grosser could you get? None. None more grosser.
Hope the whiny ladydogs don't get their way on this. Everyone knows the deal with Dell and Microsoft - if you don't like them then hurt them by going to their competitiors not by getting all jobsworthy (if you'l pardon the pun) about the EULA.
So don't buy Dell
So? If Dominos don't sell pizza without ham, and you don't like ham, don't buy pizza from Dominos.
Sure, it might be hard to find a suppier that sells computers in your preferred flavour, but it's not impossible.
>>>> The point is you _can't_ order the pizza without the ham
You what? Both dominos and pizza hut sell cheese-only and build-your-own pizzas direct from the menu, and if you ask them for a pineapple and ham pizza without the ham they wont put the ham on it. Youll get a funny look, but theyll cook it without the ham for you.
The point being
Is that computers, like pizza, is relatively easy to change with a bit of knowhow. If you dislike ham on your pizza you can ask b4 its cooked but it's hardly worth getting a refund for the ham coz you'll get 1/100th of a penny back. Whereas windoze, even OEM windows is worth a fair wack, thus there should be an option if you want to install linux/opensolaris to reject windows and get a rebate. Or even better, give users a choice..... oh wait...
Alex 0.1 writes, hopefully with sarcasm, "Both dominos and pizza hut sell cheese-only and build-your-own pizzas direct from the menu, and if you ask them for a pineapple and ham pizza without the ham they wont put the ham on it."
Hello? The pizza was an analogy for people who can't think about bundling and tying of products without needing some concrete example they can identify with. You're then supposed to transfer the observations from the analogy onto the thing you might find difficult to comprehend, although I can see that you're struggling before we even get to that point.
If it helps, imagine "dominos and pizza hut" not letting you omit the ham. Resist the urge to say that you "wouldn't mind because I really like ham" by substituting something you would mind, like dog or horse or something. Then feel the indignation. Then try and understand the original case. Jesus!
Buying a car.
"if i go to buy a new car i dont buy it then say can i have a £100 rebate for the cd player as im using my own."
I did when I bought my Mini Cooper S from John Cooper. I asked that they fit my cassette player and not the CD changer and I got a £560 refund which I partly used to have a rear washer/wiper fitted. It can be done if you haggle.
Now listen Nigel old chap....
....there are precious few places that *don't* ship a copy of Windows with their laptops these days, so exactly how would you get one that you don't have to obtain a refund if you don't want it. And don't tell me that Microsoft really don't make any money on Windows!
And just how,,,,
,,,,is one supposed to go to the competitors when, and listen up here, *all* laptops come with the bloody OS pre-installed?
I just got some funny looks for bursting out laughing while reading this - It reminds me of dealing with end users who just don't quite get it. fantastic
Actually, the whole pizza thing is a good analogy. The pizza place is tied in to the butcher so you must have ham? Then piss off down to Tesco, buy a pizza base and the toppings you want. Simple, huh? What? You can't be bothered? You're too stupid to make your own? Then you deserve to starve. The stupid one is particularly funny, as given how clever the No Ham brigade think they are. Vote with your wallets, and don't buy from them until they let you have one without ham. Of course, you'll starve by the time you dent them enough to change their minds, but - well, tough. You had alternatives, and you can't eat self-righteousness :)
it's a bit late to pick the ham off!
the pig has already been slaughtered, bled, butchered, cured, cooked, and sold to you. Picking it off and throwing it away seems to cheapen the pig's life somehow! It's certainly a bit late to be making a fuss.
Anyhoo, the same principle applies, you've bought and paid for it, rejecting it after that doesn't bother anyone earlier in the chain. To them it's a sale, they don't care what you do with it after.
Take a sales assistant through the whole rigmarole of a lengthy sale, umming and arring, only to reject it in the end and leave without buying because you can't have it without windows. If that happens often enough it will become an option. Although that would mean you don't get the shiny new laptop you want.
Try making your own netbook, twat.
What kind of wierd analogy is this anyway?
Ham? PC's? Pizza? Windows?
Don't normally drink this early in the day, but might make an exception here.
Keep up at the back!
"Actually, the whole pizza thing is a good analogy."
I never said it wasn't. In fact, I had to explain it to "Alex 0.1". Keep up!
"The pizza place is tied in to the butcher so you must have ham? Then piss off down to Tesco, buy a pizza base and the toppings you want."
The analogy would involve Asda, Sainsbury's, Morrisons, Iceland, Waitrose, and so on all putting ham on all their pizzas. Keep up!
"Simple, huh? What? You can't be bothered? You're too stupid to make your own? Then you deserve to starve. The stupid one is particularly funny, as given how clever the No Ham brigade think they are."
You've strayed into delusional territory now, having failed to even read and digest what I wrote, you're now too busy congratulating yourself on how "clever" you are. And people shouldn't be obliged to "make their own" just to avoid having something they might not want bundled with it.
"Vote with your wallets, and don't buy from them until they let you have one without ham. Of course, you'll starve by the time you dent them enough to change their minds, but - well, tough. You had alternatives, and you can't eat self-righteousness :)"
For the record, I have refused to buy from Dell and others who force the customer to buy Windows, and I have built my own systems to run only Linux. But people should be allowed to buy only the products that they need, and there is no technical reason for a generic Intel/AMD computer to be tied to Windows. You seem to be so caught up in yourself that basic principles of commerce elude you.
Keep up at the back!
@me Re: Ham and Pineapple Pizza
is that the most negatively rated comment ever on el reg? well done me
i'm glad so many people have run with the analogy. of course i just meant it's ridiculous to buy a windows computer when you don't want windows. it is incredibly easy to buy a computer without windows.
Some of the outrage below is hilarious. 'it must be illegal' - they're not making you buy it. funny.
now i'm just off to send back OSX that came with my iMac. i reckon i should get around 600 quid back.
the oldest trick in the book
"No, you can't have a refund, you didn't pay any money in the first place"
.. "the money is right here"
"la la la la we're not listening"
If I buy a system, take the license from it, and return it, can I keep the Windows 7 license?
I guess it's not free, then.
being ginger is a choice.
you obviously don't know any Gings, or at least if you do then you don't know them very well. if you get close to one then they will tell you they can change at will.
the point i am making was that this was entirely predictable. the dude bought a computer that came with windows. this was entirely predictable. plently of people sell computers without windows. he should have bought one of them. part of me suspects that he was rather hoping this would happen so he could become the Torvalds poster boy for 15 minutes.
it's not like his human rights have been violated.
that is not the definition of free.
it's not un common to bundle something for 'free' but if you take the principal item back you don't get to keep the freebie.
if i'm wrong then i think i have worked out a BOGOF scam.
Yet another reason not to buy any stuff from you ever again!
Title Dell Title
When you buy a Dell off the website, the website states add/substract 0.00 GBP. So it comes at no additional cost (as the cost is included in the price of laptop). I think the Dell person is freely interchanging "for free" and "at no additional cost". Surely, Dell is paying Microsoft for the license, so at least Dell should be fair enough to refund the customer.
Possibly a good route into this mess is to go and Microsoft to refund, as the retailer doesn't want to refund. That'll make Microsoft's mistake (possible wrong wording in the EULA) go away, or it will get Dell sorted.
Paris because she would love to get sorted...
@Guus Leeue No actually your are wrong
The Dell site does show #0.00 if you have the item however it does this once you cnahe and item too. This is in indicate the relative prices of the other items within that context hence if you were to revert to a lesser component you would have to click a -ve price. The -ve price cannot be purchase separately I am afraid
Not good enough
Computing is no longer the sole domain of the technically competent (aka geek), but surely we're not forgotten.
Let's see... old computer broken/too old.
Buy new computer and transfer operating system over.
Anyway, I'm fed up with them cosying up to Microsoft, just take your business elsewhere.
Dell a rip off anyway
Look at the M11x. $799, or if in Europe €800.
$799 does not nearly equal €800. When asked they the price difference I was given a rubbish answer of "parts and shipping". Parts and shipping equals a near 50% increase in price? I think not.
And unfortunately you quite often cannot order a machine without an OS on it from Dell.
$799 doesn't equal EUR800
But its by no means a 50% mark up either. Even ignoring whether there's sale tax included in the e
European price and not the Yank one, its still only a 37% mark up.
Looking at the dell.ie site, the M11x is EUR660 without VAT and shipping, so you're comparing the wrong price anyway.
Strange, every time I go to dell.ie I get a price of 800 Euro.....
There must be a law against this?
So Dell are (re)selling products whose licenses they are not abiding by?
Either Dell need to start selling a version of Windows with a different EULA ("do not use the software. Instead, return it [ALONG WITH ANY HARDWARE IT WAS INSTALLED ON] to the retailer for a refund or credit."), or they need to start living up to their side of the agreements they make with customers.
If they include the hardware in the eula as you suggest then what is to stop you returning the item just before the warranty runs out stating that you won't agree to MS eula
...and the wording on the EULA is most definately NOT a mistake
MS know EXACTLY what they can and can't get away with in terms of OS bundling. If the terms aren't any stronger then you can be assured it's because legally they can't be.
Good for the lawyers, eh?
I just wonder if the people in this case (Dell) who make these kind of decisions are like Darl McBride (ex SCO CEO) in that they have brothers who are lawyers.
If Mr Drake decides to pursue this case, and I hope he does, then really the only people who will gain are lawyers. IANAL but on the face of it it would seem that there may be grounds for arguing that Dell's terms and conditions are unreasonable in as much as seems that they are tying the sale of the computer to the sale of the operating system, and if I recall correctly that has been deemed to be unlawful.
A request for you and other like you. If you' type 'IANAL but' then stop there and cancel your post. By your own admission your comments are most likely just a waste of time. Conversely, if you can say, "I am a lawyer and" (and be telling the truth,) then feel free to chip in.
Does not compute
"Lawyer" "telling the truth"?
..do they ship the pc without the software? If yes and it is the same price, it is "free".
If yes and it is cheaper, it is not free (but then why would you buy it in the 1st place)
If they don't ship it without software, then they can claim it is part of the system and I side with them.
do any of the other components of the system come with a EULA that explicitly states that you can return that component and receive a refund? If no, then Dell is in the wrong.
The opposite must also be true
If they ship the software without the hardware and don't charge for it, then it's really free
You and people quoting the EULA are utterly missing the point.
Yes, the eula says you can refuse it and return it for a refund, and you can. The bit you seem unable to understand though is that the refund you're entitled to is the amount you paid for the software and as the software is provided free with the hardware, that amount is zero.
It may suck for you if you didnt understand that before buying the machine from Dell, but hey, thats what dell's terms of sale are for and is why the operating system is clearly labelled within their configurators as costing £0.00.
the better idea for Dell is to petition MS to change their EULA so that the "refund" is no longer mentioned. If there's no mention of a refund, there can be no confusion on whether or not you are entitled to one.
Who missed the point?
Dell do NOT ship the OS for free. They do NOT label it zero cost on their configurator. The configurator shows that the cost is INCLUDED in the total price and there is no ADDITIONAL charge on top of the exorbitant bottom line shown. It also prohibits you from REMOVING this item.
For goodness sake, go learn SOMETHING about marketing before you buy anything costing more than a stick of chewing gum. (Would you like to buy some nice swampland in Florida?)
Does it come with a free Alligator?
dell.co.uk sells a netbook with Linux
Here's the link:
Mind, for about 6-8 months they were not selling any Linux computers ... but evidently you *can* now get a netbook with Ubuntu on it ...