back to article Dell bars Win 7 refunds from Linux lovers

Dell has told a Linux-loving Reg reader that he can't receive a refund on the copy of Windows 7 that shipped with his new Dell netbook because it was bundled with the machine for "free". In October, another Reg reader succeeded in gaining a $115 (£70.34) refund from the computer maker after he rejected the licence for …

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  1. Dan Harris
    FAIL

    Surely Dell miss the point

    If I buy the system from Dell with the OS pre-installed, and then when reading the Licence Agreement decide that I do not want be bound by the terms and reject the license agreement I am not rejecting the entire machine. Therefore you return the license to the retailer for a refund, not the whole machine.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Grenade

      Same story with Acer

      I recently tried to get a refund from Acer who very obligingly offered me one. The catch? They wanted to charge more than the value of the refund for the "repair" in their "service centre".

      The whole point of the license having the opt out clause is to make it possible to avoid being bound by agreements that weren't part of the original terms of sale and thus not fall foul things like "unfair contracts". (I bought the laptop through Amazon, so the sale contract came from them with no mention OEM license terms on any pre-installed software). Amazon fob you off to the manufacture and they have done a pretty cynical job of making it hard to get a refund or win court proceedings.

      Having to pay to avoid some frankly quite unpalatable license terms that weren't part of my original purchase is nothing short of vexatious. On the bright side they did call removing windows a repair...

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    the oldest trick in the book

    "No, you can't have a refund, you didn't pay any money in the first place"

    .. "the money is right here"

    "la la la la we're not listening"

  3. The Original Ash

    I wonder

    If I buy a system, take the license from it, and return it, can I keep the Windows 7 license?

    No?

    I guess it's not free, then.

    1. nigel 15

      being ginger is a choice.

      you obviously don't know any Gings, or at least if you do then you don't know them very well. if you get close to one then they will tell you they can change at will.

      the point i am making was that this was entirely predictable. the dude bought a computer that came with windows. this was entirely predictable. plently of people sell computers without windows. he should have bought one of them. part of me suspects that he was rather hoping this would happen so he could become the Torvalds poster boy for 15 minutes.

      it's not like his human rights have been violated.

      1. James Melody

        Whoosh!

        Nuff said

    2. nigel 15

      that is not the definition of free.

      it's not un common to bundle something for 'free' but if you take the principal item back you don't get to keep the freebie.

      if i'm wrong then i think i have worked out a BOGOF scam.

  4. paulf
    Grenade

    Thanks Dell

    Yet another reason not to buy any stuff from you ever again!

  5. Guus Leeuw
    Paris Hilton

    Title Dell Title

    When you buy a Dell off the website, the website states add/substract 0.00 GBP. So it comes at no additional cost (as the cost is included in the price of laptop). I think the Dell person is freely interchanging "for free" and "at no additional cost". Surely, Dell is paying Microsoft for the license, so at least Dell should be fair enough to refund the customer.

    Possibly a good route into this mess is to go and Microsoft to refund, as the retailer doesn't want to refund. That'll make Microsoft's mistake (possible wrong wording in the EULA) go away, or it will get Dell sorted.

    Paris because she would love to get sorted...

    1. Mark Eaton-Park
      Thumb Down

      @Guus Leeue No actually your are wrong

      The Dell site does show #0.00 if you have the item however it does this once you cnahe and item too. This is in indicate the relative prices of the other items within that context hence if you were to revert to a lesser component you would have to click a -ve price. The -ve price cannot be purchase separately I am afraid

  6. A B 3
    Flame

    Not good enough

    Computing is no longer the sole domain of the technically competent (aka geek), but surely we're not forgotten.

    Let's see... old computer broken/too old.

    Buy new computer and transfer operating system over.

    Anyway, I'm fed up with them cosying up to Microsoft, just take your business elsewhere.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Dell a rip off anyway

    Look at the M11x. $799, or if in Europe €800.

    $799 does not nearly equal €800. When asked they the price difference I was given a rubbish answer of "parts and shipping". Parts and shipping equals a near 50% increase in price? I think not.

    And unfortunately you quite often cannot order a machine without an OS on it from Dell.

    1. Alex Walsh

      $799 doesn't equal EUR800

      But its by no means a 50% mark up either. Even ignoring whether there's sale tax included in the e

      European price and not the Yank one, its still only a 37% mark up.

      Looking at the dell.ie site, the M11x is EUR660 without VAT and shipping, so you're comparing the wrong price anyway.

      Problem solved

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Only 660?

        Strange, every time I go to dell.ie I get a price of 800 Euro.....

  8. Raumkraut
    Thumb Down

    There must be a law against this?

    So Dell are (re)selling products whose licenses they are not abiding by?

    Either Dell need to start selling a version of Windows with a different EULA ("do not use the software. Instead, return it [ALONG WITH ANY HARDWARE IT WAS INSTALLED ON] to the retailer for a refund or credit."), or they need to start living up to their side of the agreements they make with customers.

    1. Mark Eaton-Park
      Thumb Down

      @RaumKraut

      If they include the hardware in the eula as you suggest then what is to stop you returning the item just before the warranty runs out stating that you won't agree to MS eula

    2. frymaster

      ...and the wording on the EULA is most definately NOT a mistake

      MS know EXACTLY what they can and can't get away with in terms of OS bundling. If the terms aren't any stronger then you can be assured it's because legally they can't be.

  9. nematoad
    Thumb Down

    Good for the lawyers, eh?

    I just wonder if the people in this case (Dell) who make these kind of decisions are like Darl McBride (ex SCO CEO) in that they have brothers who are lawyers.

    If Mr Drake decides to pursue this case, and I hope he does, then really the only people who will gain are lawyers. IANAL but on the face of it it would seem that there may be grounds for arguing that Dell's terms and conditions are unreasonable in as much as seems that they are tying the sale of the computer to the sale of the operating system, and if I recall correctly that has been deemed to be unlawful.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      @nemaotad

      A request for you and other like you. If you' type 'IANAL but' then stop there and cancel your post. By your own admission your comments are most likely just a waste of time. Conversely, if you can say, "I am a lawyer and" (and be telling the truth,) then feel free to chip in.

      1. Chris Hance
        Coat

        Does not compute

        "Lawyer" "telling the truth"?

        Huh?

  10. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Simple...

    ..do they ship the pc without the software? If yes and it is the same price, it is "free".

    If yes and it is cheaper, it is not free (but then why would you buy it in the 1st place)

    If they don't ship it without software, then they can claim it is part of the system and I side with them.

    1. Pirate Dave Silver badge
      Pirate

      yes but

      do any of the other components of the system come with a EULA that explicitly states that you can return that component and receive a refund? If no, then Dell is in the wrong.

      1. Alex 0.1
        Stop

        Missed point.

        You and people quoting the EULA are utterly missing the point.

        Yes, the eula says you can refuse it and return it for a refund, and you can. The bit you seem unable to understand though is that the refund you're entitled to is the amount you paid for the software and as the software is provided free with the hardware, that amount is zero.

        It may suck for you if you didnt understand that before buying the machine from Dell, but hey, thats what dell's terms of sale are for and is why the operating system is clearly labelled within their configurators as costing £0.00.

        1. Pirate Dave Silver badge
          Pirate

          Then perhaps

          the better idea for Dell is to petition MS to change their EULA so that the "refund" is no longer mentioned. If there's no mention of a refund, there can be no confusion on whether or not you are entitled to one.

        2. GreenOgre

          Who missed the point?

          Dell do NOT ship the OS for free. They do NOT label it zero cost on their configurator. The configurator shows that the cost is INCLUDED in the total price and there is no ADDITIONAL charge on top of the exorbitant bottom line shown. It also prohibits you from REMOVING this item.

          For goodness sake, go learn SOMETHING about marketing before you buy anything costing more than a stick of chewing gum. (Would you like to buy some nice swampland in Florida?)

          1. Mister Cheese
            Happy

            Swampland

            Does it come with a free Alligator?

    2. Ken 16 Silver badge
      Pint

      The opposite must also be true

      If they ship the software without the hardware and don't charge for it, then it's really free

  11. Reallydo Wannaknow
    Linux

    dell.co.uk sells a netbook with Linux

    Here's the link:

    http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/notebooks?c=uk&cs=ukdhs1&l=en&s=dhs#subcats=&navla=&a=65235~0~399477

    Mind, for about 6-8 months they were not selling any Linux computers ... but evidently you *can* now get a netbook with Ubuntu on it ...

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    Major difference - he tried in the UK

    Refund? In the UK? Give me a break. Bwahahaha...

    The difference between the two cases is that the first one was in the USA, the second in the UK.

    Sometimes, I think that the USA probably got it right with the class action statutes. We need them here, because otherwise companies like Dell in this case abuse the fact that it will cost an average customer more to exercise their right than they can ever get back from exercising it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Linux

      Unfortunately there is no private action available under competition law..

      ..in the UK.

      We need to find a designated body to make a super-complaint regarding licence bundling.

      This matter does seem to be sufficiently important to OFT

      We could try to ask the Consumer Association, except that they seem to think that Microsoft is the answer, now what's the question?

      National Consumer Council? They nearly got there in 2008 with unfair licensing terms. Whatever happened to that?

      I doubt if CAMRA have locus :(

  13. Fred 4
    Gates Horns

    Not only Dell

    I have access to an employee price reduction program with HP, through the deal my employer made with HP. I want to play with a Hackintosh, so I looked at an HP desktop that meats the needed hardware requirements. But of course there is no option to purchase the desktop without an OS (windows only).

    BEFORE - I spent my money I tried to get an answer from HP about returning the license, even going so far as to offer to purchase a second hard drive, and returning the original one - unused.

    They also refused to confirm a refund would be made available, and even if one was, they refused to quote a value of the refund.

    I think a call to DOJ (in the US) and its equal else where might be in order.

    The EULA *does* indeed say - if you dont agree to these terms return the software (license) to the place of purchase for refund or credit.

    1. Craig Newbury

      Apple EULA terms

      Interesting that you would spend time looking at how you could use the MS EULA fully to your advantage in order to get a refund for pre-installed software, but ignore the Apple EULA stating that you may only install OSX on an apple-branded machine.

  14. Number6

    Mass buy-and-return?

    So everyone go order a Dell laptop and then return it for a full refund because you do not agree with the Windows licence terms?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Yes!

      Every week!

  15. Tom 7

    Illegal trading practice

    This sounds remarkably like dumping - where a product is sold below cost price to damage competition.

    I do hope the EU dumps on them!

    1. dbateman

      Dumping -> Product Tying

      This is not dumping, which is selling a product below its market value to kill the competition, you can be sure that Microsoft is making a profit from this sale. This is product tying

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_tying

      which is tying the sale of one product that the customer wants to the sale of another unwanted and unrelated product. Yes its generally illegal in most countries, but the key here is proving that Windows 7 is an unrelated product to the PC its installed on..

      D.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Typical MS-driven evasion

    I tried last year to buy a Dell laptop without an OS, as it was intended as a test machine and I intended to install my own multiboots of WinXP, WIn7, and some Linuxes. Instead the sales rep haggled me down to a price too low to refuse, but including Vista Home Basic.

    When the unit arrived that OS lasted all of 10 minutes before it got wiped and replaced ;-)

    1. Roger Greenwood
      Happy

      But you paid the tax!

      Big win to MS. Clever ba*****ds.

  17. SynnerCal
    Joke

    Anyone got Stallman's email addy?

    I'm sure that Mr Richard Stallman (remember founder of the Free Software Foundation) would vehemently deny that any version of Windows is "free". Or are Dell passing comment on Windows 7 - by saying that it's worth $0 - and therefore worthless. Ha-ha!

    Personally I would have thought that Mr Drake would have had a good case to at least get Dell to replace his Windows netbook with the Linux equivalent. At least it wasn't a desktop/laptop where you don't get the option - it's Windows or look somewhere else. That said, given the difference between Mini 10 (Windows) and Mini 10v (Linux) is only £30, I'd probably just junk the Win7 license because the M10 is a better spec anyway - which probably accounts for the price difference.

    Or get the best of both worlds - shrink the Win7 partition - and dual-boot with Ubuntu Karmic-UNR (which I've got, and like, on my little Acer Aspire One).

    1. John G nolet
      Linux

      That my main grind about Dell

      If Dell was to offer the OS as an option on every computer that they sold I would not have any problem with them refusing a refund. As long as a) the Linux option is always cheaper and b) the real price that Microsoft get for Windows is clearly stated. But they don't their Linux offering is weak and sometime cost more than the same config with Windows and their no way in hell that Microsoft is giving away Windows 7 for free so show the peoples the real price and let it be their choice! http://www.theregister.co.uk/Design/graphics/icons/comment/linux_32.png

  18. Paul Crawford Silver badge
    Jobs Horns

    Dell failure

    If I go to buy a Dell Latitude L2100 it offers me XP as default, with the choice of linux with £24 reduction or Windows 7 at £17 more. So why can't he get the £41 back?

    It is high time that the "MS tax" was a choice, not something that is forced on most PC purchases.

    1. Guus Leeuw
      Happy

      @Paul Crawford

      The 41GBP is only the sum of price diferrences against Windows XP. For sure Windows XP costs money to Dell as well, so you'd have to add this to the refund. Seeing that retail licenses are at least 70GBP, you'd expect the OEM license to be much less, but still worth some solid money.

      I (now) think the argument for combined sales is much stronger than any other argument. And this argument should go against any PC vendor building PCs for just one type of OS.

      1. cosmogoblin
        Pint

        Not quite

        I think you've misunderstood the original post. The price difference between 7 and XP is £17. The £41 is the price difference between 7 and Linux, so unless they're charging for Linux, that's the entire cost of the OEM version of 7 they're using.

        This is fairly typical - you have the standard amount for a standard build, and it's more or less depending on what options you add or remove. To say that Windows is free would, in this case, imply that Linux costs -£24; and unless they have boxes of Linux in their store that come bundled with the price of a decent round in cash, that claim is clearly bogus!

  19. Tom 7

    Oh and another opportunity to mention

    http://www.novatech.co.uk/

    They look a lot cheaper and better specced than dell anyway - and they may even have someone on the other end of the phone.

    Me - I use old pc's that business chuck out when the 'upgrade' their windows/office software.

    Its nice to find a supercluster for free!

  20. David Ward 1
    FAIL

    nothing to see here...

    They are abiding by the EULA by refunding the product if you return it as sold (i.e. on the machine it was installed on).

    Do you apply the same standards to apple? Bar for the exact wording of the EULA it looks like the same argument to me, can I claim to be installing Linux on the machine and return it for a refund too?

    1. Semihere
      Alert

      Apple is a different scenario

      The difference with Apple is that they are both the hardware AND software vendor. Dell are only building the hardware and selling that hardware with third party software pre-installed for which they charge extra, but at the same time refusing to sell a 'hardware only' option or otherwise a choice of pre-installed third party software.

      If you were comparing a machine built and sold by Microsoft themselves pre-installed with Windows (or indeed a Dell machine running a Dell OS - maybe a variant of Linux of their own making) then it'd be a fair comparison to what Apple does, but in this case it is different.

    2. ElReg!comments!Pierre

      VERY different

      The point is MS -and pardners) have been forced by the courts to propose a refund in the case you don't accept the EULA. If they hadn't complied they would have been squashed for abuse of dominant position and associated nastiness. So the point really isn't "is it idiotic to buy a Dell machine when you don't want Windows", it is "Does Dell have the right to refuse a refund" and the answer is a big, phat NO. Especially as they otherwise insist that the EULA is legally binding (which is a load of bullcrap but you can't have your cake and eat it too...)

      Essentially what Dell is saying here is "it is our policy to disregard the law on that matter".

      1. David Ward 1

        They are obviously not disregarding the law

        "is it idiotic to buy a Dell machine when you don't want Windows", ehm who are you quoting here?, I don't believe I said that!

        Would you feel it was fair to remove the CPU from a system and return it for a refund?

        According to my legal friends who have read the EULA, they are complying just fine by treating the whole item as a product, i.e. hardware and software, if I bought a DVD player and it came with power dvd and I didn't agree with the terms and returned it for a refund I would need to return the whole product not just the power DVD disk, they would not be complying if you bought the item and gave you no refund if you then sent it back because you read the EULA and disagreed with it.

        Having said this if I were dell I would probably offer the hardware with no software installed for those who are so offended by windows licenses or don't understand how to format the hard disk, as this is no skin off my nose, however I wouldn't offer a discount as there are so few of them and the hassle in the production line and testing etc would probably offset the cost saving anyway. Also I guess I would remove all entitlement to any sort of support for any non-standard system.

        I have a couple of dell laptops and a dell desktop at work, all of which are running ubuntu or Debian, and all of which came with various windows licenses. I don't feel offended by this as I know that if I could have bought the same hardware from another vendor sans windows I could have done, but that Dell's business model and totally up to them.

        1. Gareth.

          The Power DVD EULA

          <hypothetical situation> Does the PowerDVD EULA specifically state that you are entitled to a refund of PowerDVD should you not agree to the terms outlined in the EULA?</hypothetical situation>

          As I understand it, the EULA for Windows refers to being entitled to a refund of Windows - not the entire product, i.e. hardware and software - if you disagree with their terms and conditions.

          Personally, I never read EULAs but I'm not fussed as Microsoft gave me a free copy of Windows (Vista for attending InfoSec a few years back and Win7 for pretending to have a Launch Party.... the suckers!).

          Similarly, I've not read the Apple EULA but I wouldn't have bought the hardware if I didn't want to run the software.

          I'm sure my Xubuntu has an EULA but again I've not read it... anyone know if it's worth reading seeing as though I paid nothing for the OS in the first place?

          1. David Ward 1

            powerdvd et al

            Does the PowerDVD EULA specifically state that you are entitled to a refund of PowerDVD should you not agree to the terms outlined in the EULA?

            apparently it does

            "...IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, PLEASE DO NOT USE THIS SOFTWARE, PROMPTLY REMOVE IT FROM YOUR COMPUTER AND RETURN IT TO YOUR LOCAL RETAILER FOR REFUND OR REPLACEMENT.."

            "As I understand it, the EULA for Windows refers to being entitled to a refund of Windows - not the entire product, i.e. hardware and software - if you disagree with their terms and conditions."

            The legal guy I talked to suggest that you do indeed misunderstand it, the text in question says

            "IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE"

            1. Dell say that it is not applicable as they associate no cost to it, however they may return it to Microsoft for the cost they pay for it (which we do not know of course).

            2. Dell is perfectly within its rights to treat its sales and returns as an all or nothing thing.

            I don't know the business costs for doing it another way but in the end it is up to Dell, if enough of their customers wanted Linux or naked systems they would sell them that way and charge whatever they could get away with for them, if there were cost savings which generated them more sales by passing them on they would. End of story!

            As an aside my legal contact says that a judge in Italy made acer (I think) refund someone for the bundled software which was publicised a year or two ago, however this decision was actually later reversed by a court of appeal and the wording for the EULA in Vista and beyond was presumably subtly changed for OEM's, though ACER did in this case refund the user in the end out of 'good will'!

            I don't believe this has actually been tested in court in the UK so there is an opportunity for one of you to challenge the wording if you feel that strongly about it...

            "Similarly, I've not read the Apple EULA but I wouldn't have bought the hardware if I didn't want to run the software."

            But you would with Dell clearly!

            "I'm sure my Xubuntu has an EULA but again I've not read it... anyone know if it's worth reading seeing as though I paid nothing for the OS in the first place?"

            Finally Ubuntu doesn't have an EULA.

            Firefox and some other things (Sun Java, Adobe etc) do when you install their packages.

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