An Israel-resident British IT worker has reacted with horror to news that a suspected member of an alleged hit squad used a passport with his details to enter Dubai, before allegedly participating in the assassination of a prominent Hamas official. UAE authorities reckon 11 "agents with European passports" participated in the …
Now if only those expat Brits in Israel had had the ID card, none of this would have happened...
I do wonder, however, over the 'assassination by suffocation'. Suffocation? As in, with a pillow? As in strangling? Are we sure this gentleman was assassinated, and not, say, accidently killed in some kinky sex games? I don't want to cast aspersions on the dear departed,but a male dead in a hotel room tends to be a corpse from a lot more likely causes than assassination.
How long before we get the ID Card ending......
This wouldn't have happened if we all had the new improved ID Cards.
I would say something about the alleged prep's but I wouldn't want to end up on one of their hit lists.
Beware travellers from Israel
So people travelling to, or emigrating in Israel had their IDs stolen and fake passports made. It follows that you cannot trust the IDs of passengers who originate or travel via Israel, and their IDs need to be determined independantly. The Israeli issued passport can no longer be trusted as the true identity of the person.
Likewise we need to ensure that Shengen information System and other databases *shared* with third countries cannot be used by Israel against us. The car registration data shared across Europe for example.
It should be a crime for a politician to accept money from the lobby groups of rogue states like this.
See dispatches for discussion of front groups used by Israel, including turfing companies
And the attempts to attack the BBC trust is appalling, see 2:30 of this one onwards which reveals the 'British' protest group is run by the Israel Army propaganda unit from Israel:
Go back to the Daily Mail
Please return to your usual habitat of the Daily Mail/News of the World online forums and leave the real discussion to the adults...
Everyone just assumes this is Israel without a shred of evidence. Personally, i doubt Mossad are this inept (e.g. being easily identified on camera, the obviously fake passports, the use of half-israeli citizens names (great way to draw suspicion back on yourself that, huh?), etc.). It looks to me like an excellent attempt to place blame on Israel and generate anger and suspicion against their people. Quite obviously based on your reaction and those of the daily mail readers like you - its succeeded.
But please, if you can tell me another story showing Mossad to be this seriously inept then i'd love to hear about it... I might then go and subscribe to the daily mail! *rolleyes*
And in response to your actual points -
a) Yes lets share Schengen information with countries outside of the EU because all of them have such great data protection laws, human rights record and would never do anything with our data that we didnt want them too...
b) Your quite right, no politician should accept money or gifts from ANY lobby group. Indeed in my opinion professional lobby groups should be outlawed, but unfortunately thats the way the current system is. If you dont like it vote with your feet at the next election or make an official complaint to the relevant political oversight committee.
c) If you honestly believe that Israel is the only group that do this then you are being seriously naive. Every major nation (e.g. China, Iran, Russia) have similar groups working for them, as do the oil companies, tobacco companies, various greens parties, etc. This is why the BBC has special units that look into complaints. Because if they actually paid attention to every complaint, then you would have no television because every show offends someone.
Seriously grow up...
Re: Mossadian competence
"But please, if you can tell me another story showing Mossad to be this seriously inept then i'd love to hear about it..."
On behalf of the family left behind by Ahmed Bouchiki, allow me to suggest that you give this a gander:
"Everyone just assumes this is Israel without a shred of evidence."
Absolutely! Hamas members meeting extra-judicial sticky ends at the fourth attempt are obviously the M.O. of the feared and ruthless Lichtenstein security service, "Institut Für Krapfen".
What a prat.
Based on the evidence...
Ok based on the same amount of evidence that you are using to draw your conclusions, let me propose an alternative sceanrio which meets all of the "facts" at our disposal.
Lets start with the fact that our Hamas "Hero" survived 3 assassinations. Now in the Vietnam war, the US Military Intelligence unit had a saying "Once is an accident, Twice is happenstance, Three times is Enemy Action".
So perhaps our Hamas hero wasnt so much of a "resistance" hero as an israeli/CIA/etc double agent, a very highly ranked double agent. Perhaps someone within the heirarchy of Hamas discovered this. What to do? If you expose him and kill him that will look terrible, one of your most highly ranked generals turning out to be a spy. Thats a great way to forement distrust and is a great way to see your terrorist organisation self implode. (Or perhaps he just ended up on the wrong end of a "cabinet reshuffling" within Hamas...)
So how to turn this to your advantage - hmmm we know he's survived 3 previous "assassination attempts". Well why not let number 4 do the job. So you hire a team of Europeans (Ex-KGB, serb-bosnia, etc. there's bound to be a team or two running around on the Hamas books), make sure they organise to be very obvious (obviously fake passports, passports from dual-Israeli citizens, be caught on CCTV, etc), and have them assassinate your man.
Hamas screams Israel did it, the world media looks at the 3 previous attempts and condemns Mossad without any evidence (why let evidence get in the way of a good conspiracy?), and Israels long standing policy of not commenting either way on assassinations makes it look even guiltier. Job done - a traitor killed, your enemy loses face (and potential friends), and all is happy in terrorist land.
Fits all of the available evidence and explains the obviousness of the hit. But a very different outcome to the knee jerk anti-israeli responses most of you lot are spouting.
Personally, i'll hold of making a decision about who did it until a little thing called "Evidence" comes to light. I know its an outmoded concept in this day and age but you know some of us still believe in Innocent until proven Guilty.
On a side note - I have been mystified by the almost complete disregard that the media has portrayed in following up Hamas's comment that this guy was in Dubai attempting to buy weapons. Considering that there is an almost global ban on selling weapons to Hamas, it would be VERY interesting to know who was looking to do the selling and what weapons they were trying to obtain. I wonder if the Dubai police are spending anytime following this angle, seeing as its their soil being used to conduct illegal weapons sales... Yeah your right im not holding my breath...
@Based on the evidence...
So you don't deny Israel did it? Just like the spokesman, you're doing the "you have no proof we did it" claim? Only with a more fanciful alternate claim?
"some of us still believe in Innocent until proven Guilty"
The courts will decide guilt. We don't have death squads in Europe, they will be arrested, put on trial and they can state their fanciful theories to a jury in their defence.
It's not like we kill someone then pronounce them guilty in the EU.
"Fits all of the available evidence and explains the obviousness of the hit. But a very different outcome to the knee jerk anti-israeli responses most of you lot are spouting."
Gone through your whole life without hearing about Occam's Razor, I see.
Israel have form as long and miserable as your propaganda, and statistically speaking the murder of ANY Palestinian, militant or not has a very good chance indeed of being at the hand of Israel. So like it or not, until further notice they are in the frame
You can tell the loons are out in force when all the "anti-this, anti-that" meaningless bullshit starts surfacing - it's not a fucking football match.
Grenade, there's no cluster bomb.
Re: Based on the evidence...
I'm not drawing any conclusions here, but it seems to me that if a bunch of people living in Israel have had their passports reproduced with varying levels of accuracy, there are some reasonable lines of inquiry to be pursued with regard to how their details were obtained. The obvious starting point for this is - surprise! - Israel.
And although it's too early to point the finger, when you're looking at how information that is typically shared only with government agencies - especially if the people featured in the article are to be believed - ends up being used by criminals, it isn't illogical to consider which government agencies could be obtaining or repurposing such information.
Really, when someone gets assassinated, it's fair game to suspect the intelligence services of various nations - there's a whole genre of American television based on this - so cries of such speculation being "anti-Israel" are just puerile: I imagine that the overwhelming majority of Israelis are just as offended by the idea of extra-judicial killings being perpetrated in their name as the overwhelming majority of clear-thinking British or American citizens would be, had MI6 or the CIA been fingered for this particular incident, and I'm sure they'd want to know that it is occurring and be able to respond.
See - if they had biometric passports and ID cards then this wouldn't have happened.
I wonder how many no-fly lists those names are on now, let alone interpol or other agencies watch lists.
PH since she's on most peoples watch list
'I'm an IT worker not an Assassin'
And lo, a new geek t-shirt slogan was born....
Oblig. older geek kneejerk
Will there be a version that starts out "Damn it, Jim"?
IT worker, not an assassin?
I reckon the (late) BOFH would disagree. "BZZZZTTT" springs to mind.
Oh, now I get it. His 'death' was faked so he could pop over to Dubai with the other cattleprod (he sold me the first, which after repeated and effective testing, I was absolutely and utterly compelled to buy).
"Electronic Device" to open the door? That'll be the PFY, an old calculator and a bit of Veroboard. Banged to rights!
Interpol - go no further than Vulture Central's tape safe.
But 'ofcourse' biometric passwords would have been safe
Tinfoil hat on...
Its all spin, the next report will be that IF everyone had biometric passports this sort of thing could never happen...
Therefore to save the world and end terrorism we all must have RF ID tags implanted in our heads.
Bets, any takers?
Care to bet whether biometrics and more ID regulations restricting ordinary people will be touted as the ultimate fix for what from afar looks like forgeries? And bad forgeries at that. If border guards aren't even going to look at passports the normal way, how will RFID help, where the readers cannot distinguish cloned chips from the real thing?
It'll give politicians a warm fuzzy feeling of "unforgeability", is what it'll do. Which means that when (not if) someone figures out how to break the electronics and forge a passport, the impersonated persons will simply not be believed. And with biometrics they'll be even further up shit creek, for they are much more easily forged than replaced. That is a fundamental built-in weakness of biometrics, which is just one reason why using them to glue people to bits of plastic, or database records, is a fundamentally flawed idea. Yet, it happens.
The industry has a word for that. "Snake oil". But until politicians understand that a false sense of security is worse than no security at all, nothing will improve. Sadly, the general public will likely have to catch on first. So spread the word.
That's all right then
"British authorities received an assurance from Israel it would not use forged British travel documents following a diplomatic protest in 1987..."
Well, then it obviously didn't. After all, people who would commit a cold, calculated professional murder would certainly never dream of stealing someone's passport details... er...
And anyway, we know that governments never lie.
This must be a first
Israel ignoring international laws and not honouring bilateral agreements.... this is really breaking news!!
They're lucky they found out this way.
Others have only found out about these situations while being "questioned" after "extra-territorial rendition".
Gotta get new eyeballs...
I could have sworn that said "extra-terrestrial rendition".
He had reportedly survived three previous assignation attempts....
So this was a sex game gone wrong?
...he wasn't found in a wardrobe with a rope around his 'nads. Mossad could've tried 'harder' natch.
OK, my nick's enough.
I dont know about France or Ireland...
but its clearly obvious from the British and German passport photos that the passports are fake - you are not allowed to be smiling or pulling stupid faces like the people in most of the pics, and you have to be facing perfectly towards the camera. Those should have been dead giveaways! (Poor form from the Dubai border police - but then again they were probably busy arresting someone for exasperating "You've got to be fucking kidding!")
I can hardly believe the fact that someone could have made these sorts of utterly obvious slip-ups on a mission like this, and still suceed in that mission...
I'm more then a little suprised that no-one slipped on a banana peel and ended up electrocuting themselves ala Pink Panther...
and National ID Cards are infallible proof of your identity.
And I'm Alma Cogan.
ID Cards To The Rescue!
What's the betting this is used as another example of why we need ID cards?
Bears/Woods, Popes, etc
' The UK's Foreign and Commonwealth Office has launched an investigation, adding "we believe the passports used were fraudulent." '
Well bugger me with a fish-fork! Jesus, with brains like that it's no wonder we're number one in the dopey-kids league in Europe!
They kill processes, don't they?
Just sounds to me like somebody doesn't want to participate in a cross-functional team!
Mine's the one with the Beretta tucked behind the green card in the pocket.
And? So? A terrorist is dead.. Get over it.
This has Mossad written all over it but all this media interest is doing is turning this gun running, murderous douchebag who probably got a much nicer ending than he deserved into a Martyr..
I wish our SIS' had the balls to do stuff like this more often. Then perhaps nobody would be f**king with us over oil in the Atlantic and our FCO would be feared, when it speaks, instead of ignored..
Re: And? So? A terrorist is dead.. Get over it.
What about the innocent Moroccan waiter, assassinated in Norway by Mossad because they mistook him for a Palestinian hijacker? Why couldn't they have tried to extradite him instead, whereupon his innocence would have been established?
This kind of extra-judicial killing is reprehensible no matter the country it originates from. The fact that it's Israel doesn't surprise me though - this is a country that was established by the ethnic/religious cleansing of the Palestinians, and has ignored UN resolutions ever since.
They'll prosecute 2 generals shortly
I bet Mossad can't be too happy about the backlash against this.
I noticed they disciplined 2 generals over the white phosophorous bombing of civilians in Gaza. That is clearly a war crime, and they seem to have chosen 2 generals and singled them out as fall guys for any future war crimes trials.
So when a prosecution happens, they want those 2 generals to take the wrap for the war crimes, not the politicians, at least thats what the politicians hope.
Likewise so they'll find someone in Mossad to discipline and pretend it was a rogue operation, just so that that person can take the fall and the politicians pretend to be all innocent.
RE: And? So? A terrorist is dead.. Get over it.
Unfortunately, the terrorists who killed him are not dead and there were more of them... than there were of him.
...and so the cycle continues.
RE: AND? SO? A TERRORIST IS DEAD.. GET OVER IT.
That was 37 years ago, a year after Munich and the whole team were caught and tried for the killing.. I guess they've learned from that mistake.. Even hamas admit they got the right guy this time..
Israel was established by the British government after a vote in the UN (that's one UN resolution that wasn't ignored)
Also, I wonder if you know the definition of the phrase ethnic cleansing... Because you might have it mixed with "border dispute", or even "occupation", both of which might apply to the political state of affairs in Israel over the past 60 years , but neither of which implies genocide.
You might recognize the word "occupation" as the very same that is oft used to describe British presence in Afghanistan and Iraq, and even the Falkland islands. I hope your replies to stories about the British government are equally vile.
You also should read a bit about Israel's history, particularly about the 1948 war. It may shock you to discover that many Arabs fled Israel willingly (not all though.... ) hoping to return once the invading Arab armies crush the Jewish state. These people are still waiting by the way.
Those who opted to stay, are called Israeli Arabs, they are Israeli citizens and they even get to go to the same schools as Israeli children, and vote for their own Arab parties in the Israeli parliament. There are over a million Israeli-Arab citizens in Israel, about a fifth of the population of Israel. Palestinians don't count as Israeli citizens, nor do they want to be, they have their own bodies of governance, that's where they vote for terrorist organizations to represent them at the peace negotiations.
Of course, I don't believe that the Mossad is behind this operation, despite the fact I'm not morally opposed to it. Simply because the Mossad would never use Israeli identities in such an obvious way.
You know that fairly tales end in 'and everyone lived happily ever after'.
The only way forward for Israel is to become a peaceful nation, not with turf and killings and secret agents on fake passports and money thrown at foreign politicians.
Do you think calling an invasion a 'border dispute' really fools anyone?
Established by the UK??
You are out of your mind... the country was established far before the departure of the British occupation forces.
The independence of Israel was at the time of the UN vote, a matter of time. Countries are not established by foreign nations but by themselves. Look at Kosovo's history and you see that long before UN forces landed in the region, Kosovars had expressed their will to self ruling.
In fact, it is a violation of international law the proclamation of independence by foreign intervention....
something just doesnt add up
If this was mossad (who are usually pretty meticulous about covering such tracks) why would they steal the identity of foreign nationals living in israel? It would just immediately leave the finger of blame pointing back to israel, which makes absolutely no sense in the 'wet work' game.
Bluff, or double bluff
It's a new tactic.
"Mossad would never leave such a clear trail, so it couldn't possibly be them......"
They should offer immunity
All of them couldn't have been directly involved in the murder, they should offer the peripheral ones immunity and safe haven in Europe if they squeal on the rest.
Then we should find out how many of these murder cells there are operating in Europe and prosecute the leadership of the country involved rather than settle for the small fry.
I bet they never expected to see themselves on CCTV, or that Dubai would scan all the passports of people entering and leaving the country. But these are the best leads we have now, and if we don't catch this murder squad, then the next murder squad could be used against OUR leaders, if it could be so easily used against Palestinian leaders.
So we'll know for sure soon enough.
And the Mossad agents concerned (and I think it is Mossad) should realize that the best way for Israel to cover it's tracks would be to kill them and incinerate the evidence. So they should accept the immunity and save themselves.
As should the families of their agents, if they recognise their daughter or son, they should realize how damaging this is to Israel and therefore how much their children are at risk from a Mossad style cover up. Better to squeal and save them as quickly as possible.
This is a title
"the next murder squad could be used against OUR leaders" - You're really not making much of a case for tracking them down with this sentence. Unless we try to find them and then say "Please?"
I'm not sure if this is finally a justification for biometric passports
assuming that countries share the means to verify them at each border. It would be ironic if we had to surrender our privacy in that respect merely to stop government officials (of whatever nation) placing us at risk by posing as us whilst they carry out crimes they would imprison us for if they caught us committing them.
Alternatively as every border post will scan our passports on entry, does that mean every country we visit could have enough material to make fake documents with our IDs and correct reference numbers? I've been to some dodgy places in the past. That could be one disincentive to further travel.
That's how we will all make our carbon limits; no more need to burn petrol, or jet fuel, and we will all be glued to our ever-present telly for the CCTV footage across the country - Big Brother: Your Next Door Neighbor!*
*Self-inflicted injury to escape this hell not allowed, citizen.
The Irish Passports were also stated by the Dept. of Foreign Affairs as having the incorrect number of digits and were missing the letters in the passort IDs.
...ID cards would've prevented this from happening, wouldn't it?
Really? That's the name they chose for a false passport?
Who says Hamas don't have a sense of humour?
Ok, I was blinded by the hilarity of the name - it's clearly Mosad with the sense of humour, not Hamas.
Although naming your organisation to sound like a delicious dip made freom chickpeas is also kinda funny.....
And the irony is
a lot in IT would probably consider becoming an assassin. So, it is like a double insult.
Pick on another profession for your patys. If you think about it most IT don't need to move from their basement HQ do they, we have this thing called the Internet and Mobile communications which generally allows access to all from anywhere, so why would IT people be travelling on business it is not for the personal touch now is it. So IT people are a bad cover. Doctors, and Lawyers and Business Executives, make for good cover though.
And the IT angle I suppose is...
Were these the new, electronic, intrusive British ID-card passports? And would that make a difference in cases such as this?
"...allegedly buy weapons..."
Other reports today seem to indicate that this particular "allegation" was made by, er, Hamas.
It's going to be terribly difficult for them to convince anyone that they're a political organisation if they keep telling the truth like that.
So who else is scared to comment on this article for fear that Mossad would plastic bag them in the middle of the night.
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