London's yoof can now follow in the footsteps of their Mancunian counterparts and sign up for the government's ID card scheme. Youngsters between the ages of 16 and 24 are being tempted into the scheme - and therefore onto the National Identity Register - with the prospect of being able to buy "alcohol, computer games and DVDs, …
Hardly a convincing argument.
"Youngsters between the ages of 16 and 24 are being tempted into the scheme - and therefore onto the National Identity Register - with the prospect of being able to buy "alcohol, computer games and DVDs, going to the cinema or to a club."
I presume youngsters are aware that they can do all the above without an ID card, or are some draconian changes in legislation regarding the sales of such items impending?
I cannot imagine many people forking out cash for the privilege of doing something that they already do for free.
not true either
If they are talking about 18 rated films, computer games, alcohol and night clubs, 16 & 17 year olds won't get very far even with an ID card.
In fact, they would be much more likely to get them without an id card.
Booze vs Terrorists
Wasn't the whole rationale for ID cards based around, you know, making it harder for terrorists etc.
Now we see it being used to make it easier for kids to buy booze.
At a time when the self same government claims to be 'worried' about excessive youth drinking.
Well, you work it out, I can't.
In any case the 7/7 bombers could easily have had ID cards, were they available then, so I'm not so sure how ID cards prevent terrorism either.
The whole thing looks a lot like a solution looking for a problem.
If I was a terrorist I'd get a card ASAP to avert attention from my stockpiles of fertalizer.
"Who me? A terrorist you say? Why of course not! I have my ID, you see?"
I totally agree with what you say...
... so the only conclusion I can draw, is this isn't really about terrorism, (even though thats the way its sold to us). Which only leaves one possibility. Its really about gaining control over people. A level of control that could, maybe, possibly, sometimes, (if we are lucky), stop terrorism from time to time and then for the vast majority of the time, its far more about gaining ever more control and spying abilities over everyone else.
For example, I find it deeply shocking just how closely the wikipedia description of the 1984 book actually sounds (these days), like a description of the power games our power hungry political elite are playing against all of us. i.e.
"the totalitarian regime of the Party, an oligarchical collectivist society where life in the Oceanian province of Airstrip One is a world of perpetual war, pervasive government surveillance, public mind control, and the voiding of citizens' rights."
The war on terrorism is that "perpetual war", used to make us fearful and compliant to the people who want power over us. Plus as Terrorists are effectively just about the most extreme form of political opponents possible, then what our political elite are really constructing is a way to wage covert war on all political opponents, which is why the people in power feel so determined to clamp down on everyone to consolidate their power over everyone.
Also we are ruled by effectively a "Oligarchical Collectivist". Democracy is just a smoke screen lie used to fool us into thinking we have a big say in how the country is run. Yet they keep proving once they are in power, they go off and do whatever they want regardless of what the majority of people really want. Plus the political elite in each party are playing the same power games. They all want to be seen as complete opponents from other parties, but they are not. They are mostly all career politicians these days all seeking power. They all want power over people, so they all want the same thing, i.e. power as in power over people. Thats something they all share, its why rights and liberty from state intervention is so important to protect and its why our state rulers and their powerful friends totally want to undermine these rights, to give them ever more power (and the personal gain they get from having such extreme power).
Which explains why we are being forced into ID cards along with all the other "voiding of citizens' rights" we are suffering and the "pervasive government surveillance" we are getting creeping in across so many areas of our lives.
The “mind control” part is actually easy, as its them simply constantly lying to us all, so its easy to fool people when they lie so much and use half truths and misinformation to fool, trick and deceive us all. They all want power. Once you see its about power, then what they say becomes ever more transparent chess moves for power the more you hear it all from them.
So much for any of them really truly being our “government representatives”. They show they work against us not for us, so they cannot be our representatives. So they need to be held far more accountable to the people as they cannot be trusted with outright power without public oversight. But they obviously don't want that.
Not even that :-(
It's not even a solution looking for a problem. It doesn't solve any kind of problem. It's just another way to erode civil liberties and (a pathetic and failing - but expensive) attempt to get more control of the citizens of the UK. The government has clearly screwed up big time with this one, but they're so ignorant/arrogant/short-sighted/self-serving/greedy/megalomaniacal* that they can't or won't back down and stop wasting money on it.
* Delete as appropriate (if you think any of them need deleting)
Does not want to drive but does want to travel
Tight fisted and stupid with it.
122 days maximum (87 days likely) before regime change.
Just like the old boss...
Labour and Tories are the same. They are both upper-class. Both out of touch. Both in the pockets of big business. Both corrupt.
You think having the Tories in will change anything?
You need to think again.
Chap apparently hasn't factored in the cost of that lifetime obligation. Doing the math I'd insist on getting paid for requesting the stupid card, but, well.... Now we know why the British schools have been so excreable for the last while. Rob them of basic math skills and critical thinking ability and inducting them into your stupid system is that much easier. It's a conspiracy, right there.
So, a provisional driving licence is more expensive than a stand-alone ID card.
But, Peter, have you ever thought, should you wish to enjoys the pleasures of some behind-the-wheel action, that you will probably end up having to get ony anyway? Y'see, the provisional driving licence is not only to be used as a form of ID....it can also be used as a sort of driving licence that one can use on a provisional basis, perhaps for the purposes of getting a full licence.
Can't think why the governement made use of this IQ-challenged young man to be the first.
ID cards are for idiots.
Provisional Driving License
You're not considering the guy lives in London. If I lived in London I would certainly never be intending to learn to drive.
"If I lived in London I would certainly never need to drive."
There, that's better.
For the record, I learnt to drive in London, because I anticipated that sometimes I would travel beyond the Tube map. Driving in London isn't a bad experience, unless you actually want to get somewhere on time.
Anyone else thought that asking to see the driving license of someone about to drink is a bit dumb - unless you are going to lock it away until they are safe to drive again.
Poor old Peter
He doesn't sound too bright, does he?
Not too bright
Probably just as well he doesn't want to drive a car, then. There are enough brainless bozos on the roads, already.
No. Not too bright at all.
Not even clever enough to hide the fact that he's clearly a government stooge.
£30 is cheap?
Most of these seem to cost a tenner, or a provisional driving licence is 50 quid, but that also allows you to learn to drive.
Could someone please tell me...
... which of those things a person of 16-24 couldn't do without an ID card?
Do all of the local businesses know what the National ID card looks like? Night club doormen, clerks at game stores, the slightly slow folk working night-shift at the local convenience store?
Will they look like many of the *dozens* of available fake IDs from web merchants, originally "back of magazine" businesses?
Ultimate fail, kid.
The Identity & Passport Service are vulnerable
It is 10 years since PA Consulting were asked to work on identity management for the Home Office in response to EU initiatives. It is the best part of eight years since the Home Office released their consultation document on entitlement cards, as they were then known.
Everything should have been set for the Identity & Passport Service (IPS) to hit the ground running when the Identity Cards Act was passed, nearly four years ago.
Instead of which, next to no-one has an ID card. There is no National Identity Register (NIR). There is no fast and secure national telecommunications network linking employers and others to the NIR. No-one has any of the equipment needed to verify a cardholder's identity. And IPS don't have the capacity to register the expected 50 million cardholders.
The question arises, just what do they do all day, round at Globe House? I know one project manager who has spotted that obvious question. And he's not pleased. Not at all pleased, http://dematerialisedid.com/CiF/Review.html
Now that IPS have put their head over the parapet after so long, first in Manchester, now in London, they'd better have a good answer. What have they been doing for four or eight or ten years?
waste of plastic
"Presumably Peter doesn't ever anticipate driving."
or his wallet being stolen and the culprit then having all of his details including his biometrics, which would be enough to effectively become peter to everyone without biometric scanners to check (if the thief looked fairly similar, but in my part of the world they only look at the date).
and in the meantime, poor Peter has no way of identifying himself in order to get a replacement card.... FAIL.
having your entire identity on a tangible, losable, stealable medium like a piece of plastic is a fail of epic proportions.
If .gov were serious there would just be a database and your biometrics would be scanned.... but that's not necessarily very reliable or even unique, I hear.
Plus having a database is asking to be hacked / someone copy the whole thing to a usb stick or laptop and leave it on a train next to a daily mail reporter.
let's face it, .gov are just not trustworthy enough to be in charge of this, let alone anything else.
Tried to get a 16 yr old's personal details by bribing them with drink and cheap CDs , I'd get locked and put on the sex offenders register
If I came up with that for the government , they'd give me a bloody great medal for it
Useless for travel
The ID card allows travel between EU countries, but if UK was part of the Schengen zone there would not be a need for any documents at all.
So, the ID card covers 27 countries and a few bits and bobs of other countries. A passport covers 193 countries (including the EU.)
If you want to visit DisneyLand:Florida you will need a passport.
THE ONLY FORMS OF TRAVEL DOCUMENTS ACCEPTED ON RYANAIR FLIGHTS ARE:
A valid passport - ( see below - */and ** below)
A valid National Identity Card issued by the government of a European Economic Area (EEA) country. (Only the following EEA countries issue National Identity Cards acceptable for carriage on Ryanair flights: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Finland, France, Germany, Gibraltar, Greece, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Italy, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Malta, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland)
BRAIN! HURT! BAD!
UK Gov statement: Kids mustn't drink or play video games as it kils brain cells and is anti-social.
UK Gov statement: Kids can get a plastic card that lets them buy drink and computer games.
Brain! Confused! Need to lie down....
the problem isnt the card, it's what they do with it
Here in spain, there is an ID card, it's not linked to any central overriding database, or scanned or anything, it's just a plastic card with your picture, your name, your NIE (like a passport number) and the entire country is run through that single number.
the real reason that people here don't mind the ID card is not because the government can track them, but they government doesnt care, they just wanna collect taxes, lookup your details when you goto their offices, know you're contracted employed, self employed, see where your money goes (for tax purposes) and things like that, it's all totally innocent and open, the value of the card is you can prove who you are without worrying that someone will say it's the wrong document, you can show you are who you are by giving a number and your photo.
When police stop you, they are not interested to prosecute you for stupid things (in spain, stupid things might include buring rubbish bins and rioting, but thats a different topic). They just want to know, who you are, oh ok, you're christopher thomas: X7123K3M make a note and off you go, they dont get anymore intrusive than that.
the reason nobody cares is that they know when they go home, the police don't put that data into the system then it automagically (like in some film) matches up that data with what you bought today, who else saw your ID card, etc, etc. Shops for example, don't want to know your ID number, just that your name on the card, matches the name on the credit card and then it's all happy families, they dont record it, they just look at it, compare against your face, ok, it says christopher thomas, your bank card says christopher thomas, surely you are christopher thomas.
You see, thats the thing, because you know they arent building some huge database, nor care what shoes you purchased, you tend not to give a shit when they ask you.
the reason is that unlike the UK, spain has had an awkward dictatorship history that now makes the government genuinely afriad of it's populace, thats why they don't arrest everyone at a riot, or kettle them, they just want the people to go home and stop trashing the place, they know that if they go in heavy handed, the people will turn around and there is normally like 3x as many and the police will get a kicking.
compare that to the london riots with the kettling? did anyone else not think to yourself, why don't you just organise yourselves and bust out? you think a single line cordon of police or even double line will stop 300 people? I dont think so, take those sticks off the police and go happy until you find a toilet or drinking water. But it's just not the british way, we are more cowed in this country, in spain, they are not, they'll happily lash out at the police and the police know it, therefore the police are more careful, but they have guns? doesnt stop the people and the police don't start shooting people, franco franco! will come the crowds shouts, then you're into REALLY dangerous territory.
anyway, back to my point, the UK is a serial empire builder, has anyone thought what all this information is good for? the only reason I can think of is that it's all about empire building, the UK wants another empire, can't have the one it lost, so will just build a new impenetrable fortress in the shape of a database instead, why does the UK gov care whether I bought shoes this afternoon, then got stopped by the police?
why does the system need to have real time communication with the police on the ground? are we really that violent? do we need to have our identities checked in real time as we stand around? why do shops want to scan our id and store those details, of course, checked against the DB to see if it's fake or not, are we really that criminally minded?
the fact is there isnt really a reason to want most of this information, 99% of it is useless, it's just technology for technologies sake, it's not like it makes fraud harder (buy online, they can't scan your card when it's in your home) and there has to be a manual fallback in case a customer's card doesnt work, so what then?
then there is the problem that they try to trick you into signing up, you know it's suspicious when they can't just SAY what it is, SAY what it's for, LET you look at it and LET you read all the info about it, no, they say twisted things, lie, cheat, collude, all of the things we are hearing about.
then they say that it's totally cool, we should all sign up and then wonder why people stare back thinking, WTF? they don't understand what our problem is.
I mean, if they told you everything about it, let you look at the specs, let you inspect your own data, let you access your profile to see what is held, openly talked about it, invited people to know more, didn't lie cheat or deceive, would you still dislike it? I am thinking that if you knew everything about the system, you'd like somethings, hate others, but you wouldnt feel the dishonesty that is being spread about the system now, I mean, if they are trying to cheat people to signing up, it must be bad right? must be a complete shithole nightmare of a system they just dont want to tell people about.
thats the problem, mostly, it's not the system which people hate, it's the way it's being implemented and spoke about, if it was open, and modifiable by an interested public willing to work with the government to make it more secure, more relevent and less craptastic, I reckon people wouldnt give a shit.
just like in spain.
I read it 75% of the way through and then the phone rang and I lost my place. I haven't got time to start all over again.
No one database but...
if someone can look up if you're a contractor or in permanent employment, where your money goes etc. well, if not one database then it sounds like a government data mart...
Sheer act of desperation on the part of the government, stating benefits of the card which can already be obtained by other means using other forms of identification, and then not stating what the card won't allow you to do.
Peter should have his name changed by deed pole. Peter Plonker.
Am I missing the point?
Do they really expect 16 and 17 year olds to get an ID card so that they can not buy booze or 18+ videogames? Esp. after the news last week that UK kids are experts are using fake ID already... http://reg.cx/1GnL
@Nomen Publicus - " if UK was part of the Schengen zone there would not be a need for any documents at all."
You may well cross the border from Germany to France without having your ID checked as part of Schengen, however you're still expected to carry ID with you at all times in France, and iirc only an ID card, passport or driving license will do. So it's not all that simple.
Travelling in France
"iirc only an ID card, passport or driving license will do. So it's not all that simple"
So our intrepid non driving traveller could STILL have got a provisional driving licence and been able to travel unimpeded around Europe under Schengen and with no problems from the Genderames as he would have had a driving licence. So it is all that simple. Plus he wouldn't have had to shell out an extra £50 on top of the £30 he' paid for his ID albatross when he decides he would quite like a bit of independence, or is fed up our woefully inadequate public transport system, and actually learnt to drive.
Methinks Peter the Plonker has had words put into his mouth, or it's true and they really are dumbing down the education system!
"The BBC identified Peter Fawcett, 21, as the first (non-foreign) person to get a National Identity Card in London."
Database hacked already? Or do the BBC have unfettered access because of RIPA or somesuch?
didn't they find a laptop on a train recently?
If you want to visit "DisneyLand:Florida" you're all out of luck as Disney Land is in California. I think you're thinking of Disney World, Florida.
Gov tempts young London onto ID database with booze, 'games'
For some reason i read this title and thaught this was some new form of drinking game..
If you forfiet, you have to sign up for this identitiy card rubbish.
Cant think of any other reason to pay 30 quid for the privilage of being sued to bancrupcy if i move house and forget to tell them.
"I can put this identity card in my wallet."
You can't polish a turd.... but you can put it in your pocket and take it home.
Sour grapes and personal attacks
Eeeh, what is it with you lot of Victor Meldrews? You clearly hate young people and can't stand it when they do something you don't personally agree with. And then resort to your ever so charming tactic of personal attacks. Well, if Peter is fair game, so are you lot. I expect you're all donning your tea cosies, diggging out the scissors, and waiting in your dressing gowns and slippers for summer to come, so you can puncture all the footballs kids kick into your gardens. And you'll also be writing letters to the local paper to moan about the same kids wearing silly clothing or playing thier iPods too loudly on the bus, and now buying ID cards. Keep practicing that cackle guys. Soon be pension day again.
No better argument
If that is the best they can come up with isn't it just confirmation of what we knew all along - that the ID card scheme is a pointless waste of time and money?
The Roman Emperors were pretty fly...
2000 years on, still nothing works like bread and circuses for keeping the plebs quiet. (And bread is about all they're going to be able to afford, if food prices keep going up).
If I were a 16 year old the last thing I'd want is a card proving it
How did the BBC
.. find out he was the first victim/sucker? Not very secure data protection is it?
A marketing ploy that might work?
Special Offer for the under 18s - Sign up for one of our personalized ID Cardz and get early legal access to Booze and Adult films or games!!!
Why would 17 year olds want to carry proof they're too young to drink?
10 years ???
Nothing to show for it . Even here in the US they might start and a fraud investigation 10 years and nothing to show for it, how the hell is this program still alive ??. I know I'm a yank but can you folks in the UK teach me how to leach off the government for the next 10 years ?
How to leach off the government for the next 10 years
Easy, set up an IT consultancy.
Simple: get elected as an MP. You can then leach off both the government AND the people for several decades. AND they do not have ID cards !
Conspiracy? Possibly. Annoyance? Definitely.
Whilst I'm certainly no fan of the national ID card scheme, I have to say that people commenting along the lines of "why would a 16 - 25y.o. pay for ID when they can do all those things for free anyway" are showing their age quite badly. I'm 22 and look it, I'm not trying to portray myself as some ultra mature looking 20-something here but I'd say you'd be hard pushed to confuse me for a school kiddie. Everywhere I go though (supermarkets, pubs and clubs, hmv, etc.) I get asked for ID, same with most of my friends. These places are running schemes whereby they ID everyone who looks under 21, some of them everyone under 25. I've found in practice though (especially with older staff) that they're not particularly good at judging age and as a result they end up ID'ing anyone who looks under 30.
@chris thomas alpha
Quite right. It is the NIR, not the card itself. This is something which *every* idiot who witters on about "I live in xxx and we have these and our government is not a police state" *fails* totally to get.
The current backup plan is that they will make the passport a "Reportable document," IE that any changes in address details or family circumstances will have to be reported to IPS, making it an ID card in all but name (although rather more useful if you do decide to travel abroad).
It has gone from being absouletely essential to win the war on terror, to ensuring you are old enough to drink.
thumbs up for your comment. Thumbs down for it being a s"%t system.
And here he is
It would appear that Peter Fawcett is the fellow featured on the YouTube clip I've just uploaded to my blog <a href="http://burkesworks.livejournal.com/270247.html/">here</a>. Of course, if there's another Peter Fawcett from Wanstead in that age group, I'm sure the one quoted in the <i>Wanstead and Woodford Guardian</i> will find it a breeze to prove it's not him now he has his magic ID card - and after all if he has nothing to hide he has nothing to fear...
Jeez, what a numpty.
Just so you know...
You must be new here. You should be aware that the El Reg comments system does not support HTML, BBCode, images, videos, italics, bold or anything at all other than boring plain text.
Learn to emphasise with *asterisks* and CAPITALS, just post URLs as they are without trying to link them, and strikethrough with ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H and you'll be fine!
Cheers for that!
I thought the government had resorted to handing out booze and the like as an incentive to get one of their cards. Its a bit disappointing to see that it apparently enables one to buy this stuff -- bit irrelevant, I wasn't aware that the lack of these cards was slowing down sales.
Has Mr Fawcett tried to actually use it yet?
Has our entrepid Mr Fawcett tried to use it yet....say for example....
Down Tescos to prove he is old enough to buy Alcohol
or down the Nightclub to prove he is old enough to get in
or down the bank to prove who he is to buy foreign currency
or at Heathrow or Dover as proof who he is to travel around europe
or proof who he is at his first job interview.....
because I can guarantee each one of them will take one look at it and ask for some proper ID
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