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back to article Adobe sounds off on iPad's Flash slap

Apple claims that its just-announced iPad "lets you see web pages as they were meant to be seen," but Adobe's group manager for Flash marketing isn't buying it. "If I want to use the iPad to connect to Disney, Hulu, Miniclip, Farmville, ESPN, Kongregate, or JibJab - not to mention the millions of other sites on the web - I'll be …

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Bad Apple...

No Flash, no Java, no iPad.

Now where did I leave my netbook...

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no dont use your proprietary shit

use our proprietary shit...

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Flash, hargh . . . . What is it good for?

Adverts, eye candy, distraction, rubbish UI, hot CPU, short battery life, security risks, upgrades, fixes...

Absolutely nothing. Yeah.

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Flame

Say it again!

Anyway...

Just 'cos it's crap, doesn't mean it isn't popular, take Windows ( oop, had to get that in there, haha!).

Flash might be complete crap, bloody annoying, slow and the bane of most support desks, but the damn thing is everywhere like a rash. Sites are using it 'cos it's cheap and cheerful, whether you lot think it's good or not is irrelevant, Mr Joe Public wants flashy ( no pun! ) sites and lots of eye-candy, Flash gives it and makes it quick and easy, when it works of course.

The iPad may not be technically fantastic, but it will sell like hotcakes, Apple have a well-known brand and the device is small and capable of doing what the makers say it will do, nothing more.

It doesn't have to be good to sell, take VHS, Windows ( get in there! ), Skoda's ( early ones! ), Pot Noodles and SUN hardware, it just has to be good enough to do what the makers say it will do!

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Happy

Sounds like ...

a perfect fit for the iPad then.

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Not used for anything I want to see...

..Apart from Youtube, BBC iPlayer, ITV player, 4OD, TV Catchup, Fantastic Contraption...

While I think most people will agree the world would be a better place without flash, at present if you want any kind of video, music or game content on the web then you need flash.

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No flash

Cry me a river.

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Stop

time to die

Long-time Flash advocate (in the absence of anything better) but IMO Flash has had it's day. There is little in Flash that you can't do with JavaScript and HTML5 now. While I think Flash still has its place (games) I certainly would not recommend it for regular web sites and frankly flash-heavy sites are a PITA even on a meaty computer. The only 'killer feature' that Flash really adds over HTML5+JavaScript is the ease of putting together sexy UIs, but given frameworks like jQuery or Scriptacul.us that gap is rapidly narrowing: plus iPad is a app-driven platform so you can create your sexy UIs in objective-c instead, no?

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I'd agree

It does have a place, but it should not be treated as some DHTML/WEB2.0 standard-by-proxy.

I can play full screen video on my aging PC just fine, but even a small amount of video in Flash kills it (I don't use Windows, so the Adobe support is even worse). I am having a look at Gnash to see if that is an option, but as Flash is a closed "standard" it takes the Gnash team a while to reverse-engineer.

Right tool for a job and all that.

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Gates Halo

The Newton II

With no handwriting.

Sweet, you can feel the iButthurt across the internet.

'I wanted to watch the lolcats on my couch.' I lolled, that Hitler, he so crazy. ..

Handwritten on a HP touchsmart with Win7 pen recognition after watching a flash video.

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Anonymous Coward

But seriously...

No flash, no cash!

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FAIL

Adobe. I give up.

And then, of course, we have Adobe. Who are, last time I bothered to check, yet to release a 64-bit version of Flash for IE 64 on 64-bit systems. Or anything else for that matter. I've given up with Adobe, I won't even bother to mention their non-existent support for paid for and fully licensed products. Apart from that brief mention, of course.

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FAIL

Lack of 64-bit...

Glad someone else said this...hey Adobe - if you can't even port Flash to 64-bit browsers (even freakin' IE for 64-bit!!!), then I know why Apple doesn't trust you to develop Flash for their platforms.

I mean, it's not like we are asking for it on new browsers - just the 64-bit versions of the world's most popular. Can't do it, can you? I know, I've been waiting now FOR YEARS to actually use my shiny new 64-bit browsers on my 64-bit operation systems - and no dice.

Is it that hard, really? Can't you just subcontract a port to a few guys in India or China at least? You've had years to fix this since IE and others went 64-bit...and the clock is still ticking.

Writing this on my 32-bit IE version running on Win 7 64-bit Ultimate, whilst my 64-bit browser sits gathering dust because I occasionally need Flash...

Adobe = fail. That's why Apple won't let them contaminate their consumer electronics (notice I didn't say PCs - people are used to rebooting them).

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Linux

Adobe has a 64-bit Flash

Adobe has a 64-bit Flash 10 plugin for Linux. Currently at version 10.0.42.34.

http://tinyurl.com/yk82fm8

:-)

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rong

The 64 bit flash works fine on ubuntu. Has done for months.

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JBH
WTF?

Yeah, but can it do full screen video properly? ;)

I've yet to see a linux box run full screen flash video without turning it into a flickering mess. My machine's hardly cutting edge, but it's not too shabby. Got a decent CPU, 4GB ram, and a 9800GT - with Nvidia's own drivers of course. Windows takes it in it's stride, so why does the penguin struggle?

Not bashing the Linux, I actually like using it, just sayin'...

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It can, but it's all hit and miss

Using compositing desktop managers tends to mess up fullscreen.

Flash is also inherently unstable under Linux, no idea why, but it's quite often I'll be greeted with a white box (and I don't mean the flashblock one) when trying to load it. Browser restart usually fixes the problem (unless flash kills itself immediately of course). Had the same problems using the 32-bit version through nspluginwrapper and the new(ish) 64-bit version, so I'm fairly certain the problem lies in Adobe's utter lack of ability to write good software.

I'm not sure who's worse out of Apple and Adobe tbh. Neither make products I'm the slightest bit fond of. The iPad (seriously? Who came up with that? It's not even cutesy like Wii), much as I'd love to see it fail, won't. It's aimed at a netbook-a-like market of people with disposable income who will go "$450 for a boring standard netbook or $500 for a shiny-shiny apple thing that the nice people on TV said is THE BEST BROWSING EXPERIENCE EVER!!!!!" You know which they'll choose.

Flash support will cause Apple a truck-load of earache, but I doubt it will kill the device.

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Good Riddance!

End of line.

-dZ.

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Coat

Oh my god ....

..... I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with Hitler!

Mines the one with the HP Slate advert in the pocket .......

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FAIL

So?

HTML5 is coming and provided the codec argument is sorted with Mozilla and H.264, Flash vids will only be used by ads and people will begin to remove the plugin making their machine magnitudes more secure in the proces. Sorry crap coded plugins from Adobe, but I can't wait to get rid of you.

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I'm pretty much down with Der Führer on this one...

...seriously, after all that waiting, it's just a goddamn' big-assed iPod Touch?

No full OSX (with gesture/touch extensions)? P'ah, forget it.

It coulda been a contenduh, instead it's only a bum.

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Paris Hilton

Choose.

Hear hear.

I want to choose which proprietary shit I want to install on my "only fits in an apron pocket" portable device.

But it's shiny and it's apple and it was on the news and it's bigger than your 'old' iphone/touch/pad. So there.

Ner.

Paris? She'd need a big one.

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addendum

Actually, thinking about it, most of my ipod owning friends tend to leave them cradled at home. Get the flash sorted and most of them would love this device.

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Grenade

Dear Adobe...

sort your shit out on OS X first and Steve-o might let you play in his garden.

Honestly, if Adobe can't make Flash run well under OS X, how the hell do they expect it to run well on the iPad?

For everyone who is bemoaning the lack of Flash support on the iPad, etc, there are two choices:

- no flash => no flash games, no hulu, etc.

- crap flash => jerky unplayable games, jerky unwatchable hulu, crap battery life, security holes.

Personally, I think telling Adobe to f--k off is the better option...

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Grenade

Goodbye Flash

The next version of our website - which has over a million visits per year - will not be using you for anyone who is visiting with an HTML5 compliant browser. Sadly (or happily depending on your perspective) Internet Explorer sufferers will continue to be abused by Adobe's horrendously shit plug-in, but everyone with a decent browser will be served video content via video tags from HTML5, and slideshows and any other pointless flashy effects via JS.

After god knows how many years, Flash still doesn't provide a single accessibility option for disabled users (screen readers don't even see it on the page) so Adobe can go fuck themselves. We need to be WCAG 2.0 compliant and if we use your rubbish we won't be. Simple as that.

P.S. If anyone thinks that any of the web teams behind any of the websites that were humiliated by not being fully iPad/iPhone compliant in that Keynote aren't thinking exactly the same thing as us, then you are deluded. That plug-in icon was not an embarrassment for Apple it was an embarrassment for them.

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Accessibility is not an option

Inserting Flash into a page isn't difficult. It is if you don't know what you're doing.

Given that it's so simple to insert a Flash movie into a page in an accessible way that gracefully degrades into HTML or even DHTML, it's a damning indictment that so few websites bother to do it. This could well be down to Adobe not bothering to show them how to do it properly.

So that's a fail on Adobe and also a fail on many of the largest websites; one of which was the New York Times for not bothering to do it right.

The iPad is better off without Flash. Long live FlashBlock.

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Petty

Apple is trading consumer satisfaction for industry factionalism on every front. It's petty and poor planing. Disappointing.

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FAIL

RE: Petty

I'm glad it's gone.

Using IE Flash is loaded automatically - I know because I'm pestered with ads - some of which have sound.

Thankfully, you can turn Flash off in Safari (at least the version I have). It let's you click on a box saying "flash" if you really want to see the content (I never do!)

The only thing I've found Flash useful for is obfuscation - you can put links in some flash and search engines won't know they're there. This keeps them secret from the unwashed masses...

Flash is a bloated, useless security hole and will pretty soon be completely redundant so I am not surprised Apple don't support it.

As other commenters have noted, Adobe don't make a version for IE64 so why should Apple make a version...!?!? It doesn't make sense!

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Anonymous Coward

No flash = no loss

I'd like to know why Flash uses 80% of the CPU (2.66 GHz C2D) to render a crappy 400x300 web game on OS X 10.6

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Lol.

I will NEVER get sick of seeing those Hitler parody vids. EVER.

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Grenade

its all about Android

The iPad was rushed into production because Android slates are on the way. I'm not seeing much Flash action on my Android phone giving a 'get out of Flash free' card and the freedom to drag their feet.

Either Android sprouts the Flash infection and Apple will rush out support OR this could be the first time someone who gives a shit (for all the wrong reasons) is powerful enough to dislodge this plague from the web.

So all we need to do is make sure Android never gets working Flash ;)

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JBH
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Um... I somehow have Flash on my droid!

The HTC Hero. Not really needed to use Flash yet, but nice to now it's there should it be required.

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Jobs Horns

It's all about the money

The only reason there is no Flash and no Java is because then people could get most of their crappy little apps for free rather than filling Steve's pockets with billions of quarters.

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Anonymous Coward

One small flaw in your argument there...

Flash and Java are not needed to make web apps and the more HTML5 etc develops over the next 2 years the more irrelevant they both become. The writing and supply of crappy (or not) little apps are perfectly possible without either Flash or Java. Client-side databases and caches also meant that web apps don't even have to be online to function.

If people want to bypass the App Store they can already do it. Hell, Google Docs, GMail, etc. and even Office Live when it arrives will all work from Safari and bypass the App Store. Google's own Chrome "OS" is going to be more web based than it is client based, ffs.

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Go

LOLZ

Hahahaahaha, they used a video of Hitler!!! But with a hilarious iPad story!!!! No multitasking!!! Thats brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Yeah.

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Go

Pfft

If a sites only visitable in flash, it's not usually worth visiting. The sooner we get rid of Flash, the better (and faster) the interwebs will be.

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Grenade

@Flash-bashers

Why always the same complaints? You probably use it more often than you think, without even realising it. Chances are most touchscreen kiosks use it. Shopping centres, tills, ticket machines, information desks, etc.

You focus on how bad the latest exploit is. Or how it's only ever good for advertising, or sluggish games. The majority of bad press Flash receives is down to piss poor scripters. And if it's too sluggish on your mobile device, news flash - it's a mobile device. Not a laptop or desktop. We're only now starting to see mobile devices catch up in terms of hardware.

As for the iPad, what a joke. More like iPhail. All that hype, even with St. Jobs' legendary gift of the gab, and seemingly bottomless bank accounts, they still couldn't afford to make it multi-task. And it's being pitted against netbooks? ROFLMAO!

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You're wrong

I never use flash unknowingly because I use Adblock which highlights to me exactly which components on the screen are Flash.

Flash has been the same disaster for the internet and Microsoft has been for desktop computing.

Flash has slowed browser development as developers take the easy route only to find they're tied into some proprietary infrastructure which costs them too much to escape from. It means an end user experience consisting of slow downloads, clunky install paths and versioning hell where if you don't have the right version of some crappy plug-in installed then the website doesn't work at all. How crap is that? If the problems with Flash are people writing poor scripts then this is Adobe's fault for allowing this and not being defensive against it, not the developers fault.

Flash is basically a dead technology, and good riddance.

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@brym

brym wrote "Chances are most touchscreen kiosks use it. Shopping centres, tills, ticket machines, information desks, etc."

FFS, what has that got to do with how shitty Flash is? NASA continued to use Amigas for certain work long after they had stopped producing them. It doesn't mean we have to as well - it's horses for courses and Flash is a lame bloated old nag.

(but next time I'm browsing the web on the tills and ticket machines at home then I'll be sure and check that flash works)

Just for the record, the iPad DOES multitask as you would know if you'd read the specs. Only trusted applications can do it though and at the moment that means Apple's applications.

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@brym

London Transport Museum used those failed Amiga consoles for years.

Perhaps that means they were good too? Did you have one? Did you want one? Did everyone go out and buty them?

No, so applying cold logic shows your argument to be inherently flawed.

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... sounds familiar ...

... is that not what Apple said in the early days about the iPhone too ...? And then had to admit it couldn't when it came to producing IM clients, turn-by-turn navigation etc.? Maybe I am wrong, but I am pretty sure Apple admitted this when they released their update which included cut-n-paste etc.?

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getting rid of proprietary Flash....

..... Yup, it would indeed be a good thing if html 5 is as good as it has been billed. But hold on a second, can the iPad deal with html 5 right now ? It's kind of academic isn't it, because with the device not too far from launch day, so much media is supplied via flash..... oh dear. So much for consuming media, unless ..... oh yeah, you have to buy all of it. Anyone care to hazard a guess when the current installed base of flash is going to migrate to html 5 ? Thought not.

Html5 isn't ready for primetime yet, and neither are some browsers.

One last little dig at the some of the more aggressively religious Jobs believers who point out the use of Flash for advertising - do bear in mind the vast chunk of the electro magnetic spectrum used for conveying ads, from visible light to radio and tv, or are you going to give that up too if your cult leader tells you to do so ? Let's be honest, it's just another computing device, a limited one, and not, definitely not, a lifestyle boosting wonder product.

Stop and think.

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Do you html 5?

HTML 5 is supported in mobile Safari so yes the iPad will deal with HTML 5, as does the iPhone right now.

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No mystery....

Flash is indeed inefficient garbage, but it's also a necessity for large chunks of the web.

The reason Apple exclude it is because of the video competition. Why pay to download expensive itunes movies/tv when you can get it free from the likes of hulu/iplayer/skyplayer//etc? Oh wait, you can't, because Apple blocked it.

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Flash is crap!

Flash slows down and crashes browsers. Flash is controlled by 1 company. Apple is correct in telling Adobe to take a hike. Adobe is really no better than Apple.

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Adobe is the whorst of bunch

no matter what OS you use (windows, Mac, linux etc...) you are FORCED by to install unwanted 3rd party pluging that are:

1. Bloated to the point of been CRIMINAL

2. totaly useless, un-optimized

i am talking of course of the 2 most dangerous virus on the internet:

Flash and Acroscrap reader.

These 2 things as ben the most useless, bloated piece of software ever FORCED on users. Microsoft look like a bouy scout compared to Adobe.

Adobe should be arrested for polluting the internet.

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Gates Halo

tired memes?

Never!

http://cheezburger.com/View.aspx?aid=3125469440

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Flame

RE: tired memes?

Well that page took 4 minutes to load, caused several errors and was completely worthless in every way.

Thanks for nothing.

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FAIL

Flash for new kit? It's almost like...

... they found that the only people who knew how the core technology worked had been made redundant years ago. Try as they might they can't find anyone who can write new versions of flash plugins. They have to try to port the old crap with wrappers and part ports making it even more inefficient. Proof? the 32bit windows version is the only one that actually works to any extent. Anything else and you need twice the cpu cycles to do the same thing.

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