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back to article IFPI wants another stab at OiNK

One of the world’s top music trade bodies warned today that the fight against UK BitTorrent tracker OiNK won't end with the recent acquittal of its creator and administrator, Alan Ellis. John Kennedy, chief executive of the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (IFPI), said the industry is considering civil …

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Pirate

Ouch

"Speaking at a press conference to launch the IFPI's annual Digital Music Report, Kennedy called the verdict a "terrible disappointment" and indicated that UK legislation is "out of touch with where life is these days," according to The Guardian."

Pot.Meet Kettle.

Sore loser :)

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Anonymous Coward

He was an easy target

They joined the site, they could access the torrent, get the seeders IP addresses and pursue anyone violating THEIR CLIENTS copyright.

But it's the same old same old, they go after Google, they go after ISPs, they always go after a target ONE STEP DEPARTED from the copyright violation, and if they win against that target then it's on to the target TWO steps departed from the copyright violator.

If it wasn't worth their time to defend their copyright, then he cannot be expected to spend his time defending it on their behalf.

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Silver badge
Flame

"Can't sleep at night"

My heart bleeds.

"Digital piracy remains a huge barrier to market growth and is causing a steady erosion of investments in local music."

Ok. Suppose there were no "digital piracy" (Arrrh!) Would the "barrier to market growth" be lowered? People would rush the shops to spend income on a percentage larger than epsilon on additional CDs? Local music (What the hell is 'local music'? Oh, it's a feel-good word.) would suddenly see large investments not laden with extortionate clauses and florish? Sure... never happened so far. Never will.

Readable study of such a miraculous economic environment or it's all bullshit.

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Flame

That miraculous environment.

Is only the beginning. These fat fascist fucks won't even be satisfied when your bank account is debited automatically every time you hear a tune in your head - they'll want to monitor your head traffic just to make sure.

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Bronze badge
WTF?

Exactly!

IFPI can bog-off!

Ticket sales are actually up and more money than ever is coming in from concert venues across the country! That money is going mostly promoters, sadly, but the artists are getting more of a cut and making more money from merchandise. What's more that money is going straight into the artists pockets, not some fat bastard music bod like this tosser from the IFPI or ****'s like Simon Cowell!

If these media types bothered to take their heads out of their arses once in a while and actually go to a gig and see real musicians playing real music to real music fans, perhaps they might not be so f**king patronising and arrogant!

Nope,easier to peddle the same of money making pop-pap dross to bored housewives and 9 year old kids! Then blame the same, when they download it for free!

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Silver badge

Confused...

I'm confused. If piracy, I mean copyright infringement, is harming 'local' artists in Spain, France, whatever, disproportionately, then isn't that great news for the international, predominately English-speaking music scene? That means that they will do better, right? So as an English-speaking nation we should be encouraging copyright infringement?

Maybe it's all the wine and liquers that I've been drinking...

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Baaa!

Typical bleating from the recording industry. Ooh, that's sheep - not pigs. Oh well, perhaps both apply, eh?

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Grenade

The labels are filth, but filesharers are still thieves

Apart from a few bands at the very top, most bands make nothing from their label careers. (They struggle to make enough to pay back the cost of recordings.)

Sure, the labels deserve to die, as they're adding almost nothing to the world of music while taking enormous amounts of money.

But the bands - you're also thieving from the bands, you filesharers.

So don't kid yourselves about that. You're still common thieves - thieving equally from the bad guys and the good guys, just 'cos you know you won't get caught.

When you lay your head on the pillow tonight, remind yourself - "I'm a thief, and I'm thieving from the bad guys, but I'm thieving from the good guys too".

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Dead Vulture

Re: The labels are filth...

So, what did unrecouped bands blame it on 20 or 30 years ago?

Oh, that's right "Home taping is killing music".

BTW, recent studies by the music industry have shown that, while CD sales are down, the amount of money spent by the public on the MUSIC industry (as opposed to the RECORDING industry) is not only very healthy, but rising. Just goes to show that the only ones really hurting are the middle-men.

(Tombstone for the Big Labels)

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Anonymous Coward

How dare you....

even if I was a thief I would not be a "common" one having been raised better than that.

Also theft is a criminal offence, copyright infringement a civil offence so I can sleep well at night knowing that this so called piracy is only unlawful and not illegal (well at least until the secret ACTA negotiations are over)

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Flame

Meh....

And yet I don't feel the least bit guilty about it. Those same artists stole from me for years by offering me one or two good songs i wanted in a format that cost $20 and came with eight other tracks of complete crap. Turnabout is fair play in my mind. And we do it not because we know we wont get caught, we do it because we know so many of us do it they can't possibly sue, prosecute or jail us all. Of course as other readers have pointed out we've heard this swan song many times before from this industry. "Home recordings killing music..." "Home recordings killing movies... " Every time there is some new technology these morons go running under the nearest rock. Two CD's I DID purchase recently: Benjamin Button soundtrack and Carla Bruni's latest for my mom for Christmas. Frankly we don't buy these days because most of the product is crap. Miley Cyrus? Brittney? What is that crap? Rather freetard some Zeppelin thanks! And I don't think Jimmy Page or Robert Plant are going to go hungry as in a former life I owned dozens of their legitimate CDs. Oh and Bono is a tool. That is all...

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Pirate

I am not a thief

I have a server at home with terabytes of movies, TV shows, music, you name it. I admit, I haven't paid for (yet) the episodes of [currently airing television shows] that I downloaded from the currently running season. The instant they hit the stores however, I will be purchasing them. I have every other piece of media on my server. Hell, some things I downloaded only because I owned the physical copy. (VHS, Cassette, CD, what-have-you.)

Make no mistake, I honestly believe that all people in the content creation chain deserve to be compensated for their efforts, and thus I pay for my content. Despite having a physical copy (or eventually obtaining one) of everything I have ever downloaded, I am still a considered copyright infringer, and would be labelled a “digital pirate” because of how I choose to consume the media THAT I OWN.

These [expletive deleted] would still send my [expletive deleted] to jail and fine me somewhere around seven orders of magnitude more than my net worth because of this. Not because I never paid for my media, but because I choose to consume this media on my [home server/laptops/PMP/phone/whatever] while only buying my copy of that content ONCE.

I AM NOT A THIEF, either thieving from the good guys or the bad guys. I am a COPYRIGHT INFRINGER, and only so because these cartel [expletive deleted] screwed you, me, virtually every society on earth, and generations of all of our descendants out of the culture that by any sane right belongs to us all.

By what morality can you possibly condone their requirement to pay for the same content over and over and over for every new medium, for every new device, and even for ever view or listen?

To hell with ‘em, and their “copyright infringers are thieves” propaganda. Vive la culture libre.

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Anonymous Coward

False statistics

They keep blaming piracy for the fall in sales in the last few years... IN A RECESSION. Convenient scapegoat. Not the reason.

The reason is that the music they're releasing lately is shite. People are saving their £15 instead of throwing it at them because the economy is so bad.

Spain's local musicians are screwed because these guys have much better marketing than them. They promote their music so much that the local music never gets a chance.

No wonder he can't sleep at night. He's a liar and a creep.

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This post has been deleted by a moderator

WTF?

years of criminal abuse

from the record labels create this mess.

Instant Piracy solution:

Music track: 25 cents

TV show Episode: 99 Cents

movies: 1.99 Each

No DRM

NO premium price for "recent stuff"

release content planet wide

here you go, Piracy down to mere annoyance levels.

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mwk
WTF?

Holy fuck, that counts as an official report?

It looks and reads like a fucking media students coursework.

Except that a student would probably be marked down for the biased language and unreferenced blanket statements.

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Silver badge

Harassment

Now that he's been acquitted, if they continue hounding him he probably now has a good case for harassment against the BPI/IFPI. I don't know exactly what the law is in the UK, but if it's anything like Australian law (which it most likely is since our laws are based heavily on the UK's) then if you win a case against an accuser who then continues to press the case against you, you can apply for a restraining order or court order enjoining said accuser from contacting you or pursuing you further on the matter. If the accuser continues the harassment after that, not only do they go down for contempt of court but you also stand to win substantial damages from them. Of course, this only becomes possible after the accuser has exhausted all avenues of appeal (e.g. Magistrates Court -> Federal Court -> High Court), but once an appeal has been denied then he's clear to apply for this order.

And that would be the icing on the cake in this case - a torrent site operator not only winning a harassment injunction, but being awarded thousands or even millions in damages against the copypigs!

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Pirate

I wonder

Would the guy from Onik be able to sue *them* for lost income? The coppers shut him down, most likely at their request to intervene, the courts have ruled he did nothing wrong so maybe he should sue them for taking down his business and force them to hand him a billion quid or something....

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Anonymous Coward

Claims he was not-for-profit...

...so there's no lost income.

He could countersue them for defamation or something. He's been proven innocent in court, but these bastards are still saying he's guilty.

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Unhappy

I think......

.....that if the police carry out a 'justifiable' investigation against you, then any inconvenience you suffer (including loss of earnings, sales, etc due to you being in custody or having had equipment confiscated as evidence) is something you have to accept as the price for having organised justice in society.

The only redress you would have would be against the police (that takes ages) if you could show that their investigative actions were not justifiable (difficult, since it is widely accepted that the police have a duty to 'investigate' all reports of alleged criminal activity), or against the party reporting you to the police if you could show that their complaint against you was not justifiable.

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Pirate

Wahhh

I've bought the same music collection four times, LPs, 8 tracks, cassettes and CDs. I don't feel bad because I've replaced it all with mp3s I downloaded for free. I don't like any of the new crap that passes for music these days so I don't download it. The music industry will not be getting any more money from me unless they start putting out acts that have talent instead of cookie cutter good looks and juvenile pap.

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Me too ...

... except not the 8-tracks!

But you forgot to mention buying the re-releases/greatest hits with a single bonus track (both vinyl and CD) and the various remastered (sometimes almost impossible to tell the difference) versions - and don't get me started on the rip-off also known as The Beatles Remastered; great music but all the industry heard was "MONEYMONEYMONEY"

So, while I agree that piracy isn't to be glorified, you can't help but think that the music industry deserves it. If only there was a way of paying the artists something for illegal downloads ...

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Coat

It's this Septic Isle all Over

Sue for lost income I say!

If countless sites dotted throughout the European Union can offer a publically viewable indexing service for music and video without fear or prosecution what gives? Just type the rubric 'Watch Movies' into Google.

Personally I'm all for this 'underground' sharing of poor quality music and video, if the product is good then people will buy into it. Avatar being a prime example, many versions available to watch online and this does not appear to have harmed the revenue generated, if not then .. well it's straight to DVD. Take a new release like 'The Book of Eli', the trailers look good alas upon closer inspection it's not worth the price of a cinema ticket if you are expecting a 'mad max' type outing. If I had seen a pirated copy first then yes they would of lost some income.

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WTF?

*cough* *splutter*

"out of touch with where it is"

*choke* *splutter* *cough*

Jesus...

*choke* *splutter*

Excuse me! That was the funniest thing I have attempted to read from a media bod, while trying to eat my brekkie!

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Grenade

Blowin' in the wind,

Music industry, you've had your day in the sun, now kindly die. Just as you killed the way things were done before, the internet is now killing you. RIP.

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Anonymous Coward

Lost income

As I understand it Oink was a free site to join from an invitation from an existing member with the option to donate should you want to. The chap running the site was hardly making money off the site by charging people

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Badgers

Doesn't

Double Jeapordy apply?

Any further attempt to get this guy back into court would surely be harrassment and wasting the courts time. Judges aren't keen on that.

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Anonymous Coward

Yes, but no, but yes.

The law for England and Wales concerning double jeopardy changed five years ago, which means that someone can be be tried for something that they have been acquited for.

However, to be tried again, new annd relevant information has to have come to light, so there would be no grounds for a public prosecution.

A private prosecution might be another matter though...

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Double Jeapordy and others

NuLab got rid of Double Jeapordy a few years back, and IIRC just because someone's been aquitted in a criminal case, you could still bring the same charge against them in a civil case, because the burden of proof is different. You do however, leave yourself open to charges of malicious prosecution, which I strongly suggest Mr Ellis pursue, FFS they've admitted in national press that they're going to do it!

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but not quite

>A private prosecution might be another matter though...

The charges against Alan were via a private prosecution, as far as I am aware. They have to petition the CPS and the CPS either says yay or nay.

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Grenade

"Can't sleep at night"

Don't do so much coke then. Dipshit.

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Stop

A bit pointless

he'll reference his case law with his defence. This will then pave the way for others in similar situations. They should be careful to not set too many more precidents else they will never win a case.

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Pirate

Save the legal fees

Perhaps the IFPI should have a word with ex-users of OiNK who would be more than happy to tell them about how excellent the site was. How any album or song you could think of was available in any number of high quality formats in an instant. How it was easy to discover new music through recommendations and how it was totally user-dependent.

Ask any ex-user and I'm sure the majority of them would be happy to pay £5-10 a month for the pleasure of such a 'legal' service. I suggest this is where they should put their money, infact, they could probably ask Ellis to help them with the project.

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Megaphone

Phone Mandy Law you no win no fee law maker

Tired of old Law that don't get you what you want.

'Can't get no satisfaction' 'Can't get you out of my head' 'Can't sleep at night'

Phone Mandy Law you no win no fee law maker.

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Thumb Down

What's being copied

I'll bet 5 pence that the things which are getting copied most are things like the Simon Cowell and other pop acts that disappear after 2 or 3 nanoseconds anyway. It's almost instantly forgettable "shit-pop" and even teenagers (the target market) aren't foolish to exchange cash for that guff.

I'll freely admit that I've downloaded copyrighted works before. The first time ever was a record that I'd been looking for for 7 years and had even written to the band to see if they had a copy they could sell/give me (they didn't). Now that the record has been re-released, I own the CD anyway...

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Have legal alternatives not help counter illegal downloads?

"And while sales from burgeoning markets like Apple's iTunes and Spotify are promising, they have thus far failed to counter damage from illegal downloads."

Is there any evidence to support this?

It's been claimed that (on El Reg and other sites) that services like Spotify P2P do attract people away from illegal filesharing. Indeed, I thought this was a major reason why record companies have invested in Spotify - so are they wasting their money?

One reason I believe there has been so much illegal filesharing is because the music industry was so slow to offer legal alternatives. Because of this lack, people are used to downloading illegally and it’s going to take time to change this mindset.

Also, isn't it hard to ascertain - like any black market activity - exactly what the level of illegal filesharing is? As such, it’s hard to judge the precise effect of legal alternatives?

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Flame

They just don't get it, do they

I bought six albums at Xmas, that I had listened to, for free, on Spotify beforehands. Two were downloads (paid for). And, for the first time, I am discovering new artists that I like and plan to buy their CDs, through hearing them on Spotify and Planet Rock.

I'm fed up of buying albums where I like 1 track (the single played on the radio) and the rest is filler.

Spotify, just like filesharing, is a distribution and approval mechanism potentially leading to purchase.

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I don't mind paying but I do mind being robbed

Whenever I bought vinyl or CDs I always liked if possible to leave the price stickers on as a memento, especially if the sticker had the store's name. This was before shrink-wrap when you took the empty case to the counter. Looking back now I think why on earth did I pay £12.99 for a not-very-good record which I bought because there was one song I liked on it. And that's thirteen 1980's quid we're talking about folks, obviously in the days before scanners when Saturday Girls named Sandra had to price everything individually with ticket machines.

But that's the way it was, that's what everybody did. And no doubt the record companies liked having all that money to put up their noses and are very keen to resurrect those heavily overpriced times NOT GONNA HAPPEN

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Flame

Incomplete quote.

"It would be great to report that these innovations have been rewarded by market growth, more investment in artists, and more jobs. Sadly, this is not the case,"

He went on to say that "We blew all the money we made as a result on expensive wine and even more expensive prostitutes and didn't give a cent to the musicians, as God intended." Reappearing from behind the smoke of his Cuban cigar, he added, "Now we've spent it all. Give us more."

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His money!

The money he made was from people who paid him to be on the site (or get others on the site). As such that is a registration fee and not a fee for downloading anything. It has no bearing on the amount of money the record industry would have got as it isnt for anything they sold. Once the act of downloading takes place, they can sue him and the person for copyright infringement, but they didnt do that, the big eejits.

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Anonymous Coward

Payments to Oink

SuperTim: The money he made was from people who paid him to be on the site (or get others on the site). As such that is a registration fee and not a fee for downloading anything.

I never paid anything to Oink, for registration or membership. From what I remember, he only asked for donations to the running costs. It was up to the user to keep their upload/dowload ratio >1.0 to keep an active account. That was the only 'cost' of an Oink account.

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More bullshit figures

107 albums released in France in the first half of 2009? Bullshit. *Maybe* there were only 107 released through IFPI member companies, but I betcha that there were at least that many released in Paris alone by unsigned bands and those on small independent labels. And some of them would actually be decent albums, unlike anything from the big companies.

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FAIL

How the IFPI work out lost revenue ...

http://xkcd.com/605/

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Anonymous Coward

Hmm...

Bearly a single dissenting voice to the groupthink? This is an excellent example of the Internet acting as a tool for re-enforcing personally held beliefs. You find somewhere that seems to have the same ideas as you and then immerse yourself in the views of others the same as you, while at the same time congratulating youself on being so smart.

Anon, because I really can't be arsed with the bullying that tends to come from pointing out this sort of elephant in the room.

It also happens here to a lesser extent with Religion, Linux and Climate Change.

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FAIL

greedtards?

stop using the word freetard.

just because people get something for free doesnt give you the right to call them retards.

offensive trolls like you make me not want to use the reg at all...

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(Written by Reg staff)

Re: greedtards?

I think in this context the suffix '-tard' has become akin to '-phile', as in 'showing fanatical interest in/devotion to'. Or just to indicate membership of a collective mindset. Like commentards. The original meaning has been discarded. Or um, distarded.

Anyway, there's plenty of offensiveness around these parts but I don't really feel that's still a source of it. Bubba jokes are still the bottom line for me (yes, I said 'bottom', please be quiet).

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Troll

@Sarah

Sarah...how is it that after moderating for this long you haven't become a blasted amoral shell of something that might once have been human? How can anything, bubba jokes included even remotely bother you any more? Is it possible that we commenttards have not been doing our job? Have we somehow failed to strip you of all that is right and good?

It is a sad day when you realise the internet has failed. Perhaps it isn’t all powerful after all…

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Happy

Free Music

Look, I know it's old fashioned but I just nip down the library and take out a few CD's at a time, nip home, rip them to my PC and return, then repeat. Quite simple

Anon because you never know who's watching :-)

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Bronze badge

O. J. Simpson

...was acquitted of two murders but then technically successfully sued in civil court, "found liable for the wrongful death of Ronald Goldman and battery of Nicole Brown" (Wikipedia). But apparently he mostly avoided paying up.

Anyway, the Oink case is not quite the same thing.

I was told some years ago that in the U.S. double jeopardy protection also doesn't apply between state or lower(?) and federal law, so you can be tried twice if a situation is considered to be an offence in two codes. But presumably you can't be double sentenced, so if you're found guilty once and it sticks then you won't be tried again, unless that's a way to get a sentence increased - or to get publicity as a popular prosecutor.

I disapprove of media bootlegging, but also of some of the legal machinery used against it. The actual laws are stupid and clumsy when applied to twenty-first century media technology, and agile bootleggers easily dodge around it - whilst more naive, often young people who try to use computers to share nice music with other people get stomped on hard. It's a pity.

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Heart

Musicians should get another job that pays

Poor old musicians complaining they get no money, Music labels with a business plan from the beginning of last century.

People who make music should now just accept that they will never earn a living from recording music in this digital age and find a job that does. Does that mean music will die? like the IFPI thinks. No it just means that people who have a passion for music will continue to make music, but only for love. (or maybe a pint if they are lucky)

In any case why do we need record labels now anyway? aren't they completely redundant?

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