back to article Manchester ID staff suffer isolation as new dawn fades

The people of Manchester have either lost all interest in travelling abroad and drinking, or couldn't give a monkey's about the government's lame duck ID card scheme, if a commons answer is anything to go by. Manchester is the first big trialling ground for the ID card scheme, before a broader trial across the rest of the North …

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FAIL

Nice work, uk.gov

'However, she said that passport info was not "readily held in a format to enable a further breakdown of those resident in Manchester"'

They don't have addresses for passport applicants?

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Grenade

Perfect example...

This is a perfect example of why they shouldn't be allowed to do this, they're obviously far to stupid to develop a decent system; if they truly can't filter passport applications by address then they're idiots, if they can and don't know how then they're monsterous idiots and if they can, they know how but won't tell us, then they're untrustworthy. All of the above are reasons not to allow our luddite politicans anywhere any valuable data

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Of course she knows the statistics

But it would have been made the comparison embarrassing, so, it's usually so much easier just to feint ignorance in such circumstances.

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Anonymous Coward

What grave yard did they dig her up from?

BS!!!

select count(*)

from passport_table

where city = 'Manchester'

and

application_date between '30-NOV-09' and '15-JAN-10'

Execution time: oh, perhaps 10mins on a slow system that isn't indexed.

If the passport data is not held in a database in year 2009, and if passports are not printed by a printer running off a database I will eat my f**ng hat!

She's a liar.

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FAIL

Perhaps nobody knows...

While there have been full page ads in the Metro free paper and I've seen exactly 1 online ad on a web page, there has been no other visible advertising at all.

OTOH, how difficult is it to work out that the ID card doesn't permit travel to the America, Africa, Australia and other non-european countries so what is the point if one already has a passport?

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Anonymous Coward

It makes perfect sense...

It's not suposed to replace the passport full stop, but I travel within Europe regularly and actually find it annoying that I have to carry my passport with me at all times (yes in some countries you are supposed to have ID on you at all times), so the ID card for European travel makes perfect sense... it fits in your wallet, so you don't have to carry the annoyingly large passport with you all day.

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FAIL

Wish I live in Madchester

Then I could be put on a watch list for not rushing to get my ID Card

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Big Brother

@I could be put on a watch list

Don't worry, with a comment like you just made, give it a few years, then you will be on a watch list ;)

(After all, how long before they workout who posts what to which forums, then go and datamine the entire forum on each site, so they can build a profile of each poster. The Internet is an ever growing database of our thoughts ready to be data mined). The more we speak out in the next few years, the more in the longer term we doom ourselves later if our speaking out now fails to stop their push towards total control. :(

I can't work out if they are all utter fools for getting the ID cards now, or if they have tried to be first so they could get something which in time could become a collectors item, in which case its more like an investment. Anyway, whatever we do or say, it seems they are going to force these bloody cards onto us all one way or another. So even if we kill the ID cards, the new passports sound like they will be able to function like the ID cards in everything but name. Its not an ID card, its a biometric RFID passport. Oh joy.

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Joke

@I could be put on a watch list

Can I be put on a watch list, a Timex will do, thanks.

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FAIL

Waste of time

What's the point? You carry a drivers licence for ID and have a passport for going abroad. And if you try to use the ID card instead of your passport there's every chance you'll be turned away before you even get on the ferry or plane. I wouldn't enjoy being the only person who can't show a passport in the country of destination. The Spanish official would whisk you off for an interview post haste.

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Anonymous Coward

No problems...

The passport is large and doesn't fit into your pocket easily (well not unless you want to keep replacing it every five years if you are a frequent traveller because of damage). The ID card fits into your wallet, and so make life easier. Why would you want to carry around Europe a passport which is of much higher value if lost or stolen when you could slot a bit of plastic in your wallet?

As for being turned away with your ID card, I've now used it on six flights and one Eurostar journey without problems.

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Big Brother

Papers please, citizen.

"Why would you want to carry around Europe a passport which is of much higher value if lost or stolen when you could slot a bit of plastic in your wallet?"

Because a passport is not linked to the Orwellian database known as the National Identity Register (NIR)?

Here's hoping the Tories win the next election and fulfil their promise to scrap the entire evil scheme.

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Unlikely

The Spanish policeman is less likely to give you hassle over an ID card than the P&O staff member because he'll be expecting you to have one.

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Anonymous Coward

scaremongering as usual

Why are people so scared about a database which holds information which the government already have on you anyway?

Name - they already have in various databases

Address - Same as above

D.O.B - Same as above

NI Number - Same as above

Photo - already on the passport database

The only extra data they have with an ID card currently is your fingerprints, and these will soon be collected when applying for a passport.

All the NIR is actually doing is linking data together....

If you've already got a passport they've already got the majority of the data anyhow, so I really don't see the problem. As usual it seems people are just scaremongering for the sake of it.

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FAIL

Pandering to authoritarianism as usual

"Why are people so scared about a database which holds information which the government already have on you anyway?"

Why are some people so accepting what the government's PR spin says without researching for themselves?

For a start there's those civil servants types with track records of efficiency and keeping personal data safe ... oh wait! Do we really want all the Tom, Dick and Harrys in any kind of public employment to have access to all our personal data in one easy-to-use query? The police already have enough trouble with people using PNC checks for illegitimate reasons, Coppers who hate their neighbours or suchlike; what about the hundreds of thousands of low-paid civil servants ... will they all resist the temptation to pull records for criminal purposes?

By making ordinary life reliant on a complex system administered by civil servants, where the onus is on the individual to ensure data is current and correct (fines if you don't) makes for a state such as that depicted in the movie 'Brazil'.

"The only extra data they have with an ID card ... All the NIR is actually doing is linking data together"

The ID Card and NIR Bill adds 50 categories of registrable fact -- an index to all other official and quasi-official records -- which means one's entire life and interactions with the state will be tracked; moreover, they're bound to add private data at some point in the future, banking has been talked about, so they can check your accounts and ensure you aren't somehow avoiding tax.

Furthermore, the bill also allows for adding any extra data when and if the Home Secretary sees fit, doesn't have to go and get a darned democratic mandate from parliament.

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FAIL

As usual...

... someone from the "Nothing to Hide" Brigade misses the point and it's more than a little ironic that you post from behind the shield of being an Anonymous Coward!

The point is not that the data is held on "various databases", the point (well, one of them) is that all that data will be held on *ONE* database and that it will be *YOUR* job to ensure that *THEY* have the right information and *YOU* will be punished by a fine if you don't!

And whilst the Government has been claiming that "have no plans" to make it compulsory to carry these cards, it's clear from what's been leaked that that is their ultimate aim, breaching the long established Common Law Right to "Go about your lawful business without let or hindrance".

Your Zombie Arguments have already been comprehensively knocked down in previous articles on El Reg, why not go back and actually look instead of digging them up once more?

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FAIL

Wackie Jackie

Hah, and Jaqui Smith was telling us that people in Manchester cannot wait to get their hands on the new IDs and how many have approached her to ask when can they have a go.

Uber Fail. And hopefully it will fail more.

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Anonymous Coward

database

"Fingerprint biometric passports are due to kick in from 2012, at which point anyone seeking a passport can also get an ID card."

So there you have it, from 2012 whether you "choose" a passport or the ultimately pointless ID card alternative, your biometrics are stored on the same funky database. Presumably to be shared, lost and sold by anyone with even a moderately plausible excuse to access the database for any reason.

Hopefully the world really will end in 2012.

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fingerprints

Start buying shares in manufacturers of belt sanders now...

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FAIL

How many were...

How many of that 1,200 were civil servants, I wonder?

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Black Helicopters

Also...

Journalists, there were a few ... I heard one of Radio 4 who applied and went through the process.

Maybe not that many, but even if only 50 that's still 4% of total.

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Isolation, New Dawn Fades?

Spot the Joy Division fan

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Big Brother

The next NuLab Stick?

Get you ID Cards here or you won't get a Drink.

Yep, the sting in the tail of the new anti binge laws is that you will have to show ID to get a drink not matter what your age is. Guess what will be the only ID accepted?

Yep, the gov issued ID card. PAssports not accepted.

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Pint

Re : The next NuLab Stick?

Not that I've ANY support for the ID card scheme but you really can't beat people with a stick that doesn't exist. According to the BBC ( which I'll trust for this over even El Reg)

"Bar staff and retailers required to demand proof of age of anyone who looks under 18"

and

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/DG_184257?cid=rss

"make sure all alcohol retailers check the ID of anyone who looks under 18 to prevent underage drinking"

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Over 18? And the rest...

"Bar staff and retailers required to demand proof of age of anyone who looks under 18"

"make sure all alcohol retailers check the ID of anyone who looks under 18 to prevent underage drinking"

Which is great, BUT how many outlets (both retail and bars) are currently operating a "Challenge 21", "Challenge 25" or even "Challenge Every Fucker Who Wants Anything At All" scheme? I'm 35, and a few months ago was asked for ID to buy a packet of cigarettes FFS*.

*Co-operative supermarket, under their Challenge 25 policy. I haven't looked under 25 since I was 12.

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WTF?

Challenge 'x' is all very well...

... but if I'm ever challenged for ID in relation to age restricted purchases it will simply prompt me to say 'no'. And leave without paying for anything.

I started drinking in pubs at 16 and was only ever challenged once - at age 24 by a doorman of a London 'over 21 only' pub. And, sadly, that was many years ago. I lived in the US for a short while and it drove me mad that as somebody in their 30's I still had to show my passport to get entry into bars (but only at the weekends, wierdly).

But seriously, there is such a thing as using your judgement when faced with somebody wanting to buy alocohol/tobbacco/knives/sniffable substances/peanut butter* - if the checkout staff can't exercise theirs, then I can't be bothered to give them my business.

*lethal in the wrong hands!

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WTF?

ID'ed for Lemsip Plus

Thats nothing, I *recently got challenged for ID to prove I was over 16 so I could buy some Lemsip (Max Plus). I am clearly over 16 and (at the time) clearly suffering from a cold but they refused to sell them to me. I had to get my missus to buy them (she looks younger than my 30 years but she had ID).

I hadn't even realised there was a age limit to buy Lemsip!

* Morrisons

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Anonymous Coward

Thought Experiment

You are a minimum wage checkout jockey.

Accidentally (or otherwise) selling certain items to certain people carries penalties, ranging from dismissal to fines.

Certain people walking out of the shop in a huff because you've asked them for ID costs you nothing.

Do you:

a) err on the side of caution;

b) err on the side incaution?

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Pint

Missing the point

Point is that an "ID CARD" is not required most people to buy alcohol

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FAIL

43 people a day.

A breakdown of the figures would be nice.

If they were typical of early adopters, they probably all attended on day one.

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Badgers

Mancunians

I'd rather imagine that if 2,000 people expressed an interest, they mostly went to get a card. I'd also suggest that those people probably work in and around local government.

Can't recall seeing any advertising for an id card in Manchester.

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Happy

2,000 interested my arse!

Actually suggests that people in the survey got hassled on the street and wanted to get away quick...

"Would you consider getting an ID if it made everything easier and brought about a new dawn of peace and properity?"

"Yeah alright, anything! Look I have a bus to catch, are we done yet?"

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1,999 maybe

"I'd rather imagine that if 2,000 people expressed an interest, they mostly went to get a card."

I know of one of those 2000 who expressed an interest. He did so because he is involved in No2ID and I am absolutely sure that he did not go to get a card.

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And . . .

. . . how many of those 1,300 people are ordinary members of the public, linked neither to the LieBore party or to the body actually administering the cards (whether at a local or national level) ?

Equally, I seem to remember a figure close to 3,000 being quoted before christmas as the number who had requested an appointment, at which point the numbers look even worse.

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FAIL

Please check the text here ...

"Fingerprint biometric passports are due to kick in from 2012, at which point anyone seeking a passport can also get an ID card."

Do you mean CAN or WILL ?

Of course when Baby Minder Cameroon gets in, he will cancel the ID card project so he can pay for new labels on alchopops.

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Grenade

Marketing spin...

...I was reading the Metro in Manchester the other day and there was an ad for the ID cards, touting them as being capable of protecting you from identity theft.

They seem to be marketing it not as an ID card but as some kind of security device that will somehow stop the stupid getting ripped off online. If you're stupid enough to buy into the ID card scheme nothing is going to save you from being made rich by a nice man from Nigeria.

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Re: Marketing spin...

>> If you're stupid enough to buy into the ID card scheme nothing is going to save you from being made rich by a nice man from Nigeria.

Now they have an ID card to protect them, they'll probably feel much safer when dealing with wealthy Nigerians.

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Coat

Wacky Jacqui

She's Lost Control

Mines the one with the existentialist paperback in the pocket.

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Thumb Up

New dawn fades eh

So the people of Manchester Passover the identity card, short of a Candidate or two for Browns Eternal quest for regimented people. I'm sure that for those that took it up, it will be nothing but a Novelty. Can't wait for these Leaders of Men to force us to use it, then we will see some Disorder. Eventually I expect other forces to come into play. It will be part of a Ceremony for new citizens, but that would take Decades to implement. How many have applied for these so that they can see how hard it will be to copy or forge, a Means to an End? Meg Hillier must feel that She's lost control, These Days, seeing how government have no Insight in what people really want. No love lost from the people of Manchester.

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Since the P&O story...

I have been more aware of that rather tatty A4 page behind the counters of shops saying what ID they accept. Still not seen one of the new ID cards listed as accepted ID anywhere i have seen others listed (banks, POs, shops, supermarkets). I am in London, but still, where is all the marketing money going if not to update exactly this kind of info?

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Anonymous Coward

Red Herring

I think the whole thing is designed to distract us from the biometric passports.

Once your fingerprints, photo, address, description and SO's passport id are all related it's going to be very hard to hide your identity. "Great!", say the Daily Mail readers, "That'll stop those immigrants coming over here and eating our swans!" And it is great, as long as you agree with your government for the rest of your life, trust your government to protect the data, never get wrongfully accused of a crime and don't find yourself needing to join a witness protection programme. You can't change your fingerprints.

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Happy

Kudos

Not one, but two Joy Division references in the title.

Nice.

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Happy

Viagra / 419ers

Sounds indeed closer to a 419er or Viagra spam response rate... So will Jackie Smith relocate to Nigeria soon? Can't wait...

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Big Brother

From the Ministry of Truth

C'mon you sheeple of Manchester. Our glorious leader has decreed that these cards are a success. They cannot be allowed to fail!

The only way they government will get the population to accept ID cards will be at the point of a gun.

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Expensive collectible

A unique collectible they may have got but they've also got their personal details on a database, which undoubtedly will soon be sold widely to identity thieves all over the world (although if the number of entries will remain so low no self-respecting identity thief will probably buy it).

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Anonymous Coward

How many applicants...

...are hackers hoping to figure out how to reverse engineer the damn things?

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Anonymous Coward

Bye bye

This'll die a quick death in May once Labour are out anyway.

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FAIL

About 800 of the 1300 thought....

... it was a free Drink Card.....

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FAIL

Bargain

Only £384 worth of marketing per card? So just another £25 *billion* required in marketing funds to get the whole UK population on board. Bargain. Good to see our taxes well spent.

Of course not all 1,300 actually went all the way through and ended up with cards quote: "have applied and attended an enrolment appointment for an identity card"

Note the political semantics.

I think we need a bigger epic fail icon...

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Missing something?

""have applied and attended an enrolment appointment for an identity card"

Now, where does that say how many have actually got the cards?

And no, it will not go away once Dave the Twat is at No 10.

The various vocal right-wing minority supporters (UKIP/BNP/TPA) will all be hassling the Daily Maul readers for protection from 'forriners' and will be demanding everyone to have I.D. cards.

To think it's all down to the current lot of incompetant incumbents is like hiding under the duvet until the monster has gone. Wake up - you say you don't want it but you are going to vote for it as a law'n'order thang - then you will blame it on others.

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