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back to article Booze shops get ID card lessons

Government workers have hit the streets of Manchester to promote the ID cards scheme to shop owners, who currently outnumber members of the public who have volunteered for a card. The city is the first place in the country the public can apply for an ID card, which requires a fingerprinting session. This week Identity and …

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Megaphone

Attention Greater Manchester businesses:

THE NEXT GOVERNMENT WILL ABOLISH THE IDENTITY CARD SCHEME. THIS HAS BEEN A MAJOR PART IN THE CAMPAIGN BY BOTH THE CONSERVATIVE AND LIBERAL DEMOCRAT PARTIES.

Forget ID cards.

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Uptake will improve....

...once it's marketed to the public. I presume by "marketed" they mean "once we've made certain civil services only available on production of an ID Card" i.e. Want a passport? You need an ID Card for that! Want to open a bank account at one of our shiny new banks? We now only except ID Cards for that! Want to apply for a Driver's License? Sorry, you need to present you ID Card for that!

I could go on but I'm scaring myself...

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Bronze badge

No uptake

So is the plan that virtually no-one will get a card, so there won't be any complaints during the trial, so that at the end of the trial, when labour are still in power (pffft) they can claim it was a success and no-one disagrees?

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WTF?

What's in it for the retailer?

Why would any retailer be interested in this?

If you sell fags and booze, there is already a well established "prove you're 18" card scheme. Why would you want any more than this? In case you accidentally sell a bottle of vodka to a terrorist who might use it to make an upmarket molotov cocktail, maybe?

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Go

OTOH

Have you tried proving your identity in this modern age? With all my bills paperless now, proving that I am who I say I am is a PITA.

So, inevitably, I resort to using my passport or driving licence for such purposes, neither are necessary or required for every person, however, given that just about everyone wants to leave the country or drive at some point, both are de-facto ID cards already.

It's just formalising what's already here in a tool designed for the job. The fact that it will cost billions and the abuses to which it might be put, is another matter entirely mind.

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They kept that to them selves

They kept this little stunt to them selves, otherwise we'd have had people from all over the country gathering in the town square to burn a giant ID card. Again.

http://www.no2id-handf.org.uk/m171009.htm

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Big Brother

What if

They held an ID parade.

And nobody turned up.

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@The Original Ash

Once a certain number of people have the cards they will become effectively compulsory -- and this government could easily tangle them in some more laws before the next election to make scrapping them hard, even assuming we can trust any opposition party to keep their word.

Sadly the moronic plebs in this country will continue to vote the same group of self-serving criminals into power and those of us who would like freedom will be inconvenienced by it and forced to pay for their crap.

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Pray silence

Oh honestly, are we really that bothered? I quite like the idea that most other European countries have - a national ID card, that they can even travel with to other EU member countries IIRC. Me? I go to France, I need a whopping big passport to get in the door.

I'd jump at the chance for an ID card. Heck I'm already registered for IRIS and wish they'd adopt it world-wide.

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£30?!

In Belgium, digital ID cards (sans fingerprints, but plus a digital signing certificate) cost about a tenner. And that's considered a rip off.

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Alert

Not a practical identity document in any case

Perhaps my eyesight is failing me, but whilst looking at a high-res photo of the new UK National Identity Card, I have noticed one glaring ommission from it. It does not even have the holder's address printed on it! I have gone through the IPS website to try and find out whether the holder's address is included on the on board chip, but cannot find any reference to it.

Meg Hillier, in the main article, describes the ID card as a practical, convenient, gold-standard ID document. Without the holder's home address recorded anywhere on the document, I would say that your humble, bog-standard UK photocard driving licence, which includes the holder's address, is a far more useful and practical form of ID. I know that when applying for many services nowadays, the organisation involved requires proof of one's home address as well as their identity. If the National ID card doesn't include address details , then people will have to carry around a second form of ID, confirming their home address as well.

Surely Meg, this defeats the whole object of a one-stop-shop ID card!

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Anonymous Coward

pfft

Every teenager knows an off licence that well sell them booze, no ID necessary.

So as usual with these schemes, the people we're trying to stop form drinking, kids, will drink just as much as they ever did, while real people have to enroll themselves in an ID database if they want to leave their next supermarket trip with a crate of larger in hand.

Of course the government aren't even trying to pretend this is about underage drinkers. They're making it quite clear to everyone that our lives will be miserable if we refuse the ID card.

Then when everyone's locked into the grid, the fun can begin.

"Excuse me sir, as you walked past me my PDA registered your ID card's RFID chip and flagged you up as someone I should talk to. Would you mind explaining to me some of these recent purchases you made?" "You have the right to remain silent, but everything you have already said online or in any phone conversation up until this point is in my PDA and will be called upon if necessary"

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Waste of time

Of the 2,000 cards issued, how many were to people other than public servants? Would it need more than one hand?

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Do You Trust MP's

I don't the last time the world trusted a Govenment with this kind of power was the National Soccialists in 1930's Germany and we all know where that ended up. As for trusting the Conservative party I don't. The Conservatives where supposed to give as referndom on Europe but gone back on that.

This is a Blatent attempt to MAKE the ID sceame conpolsary if you want a drink, and as others have seen that will only be the start.

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@Pray silence

A couple of rebuts if I may...

1) Other countries national ID cards are not connected to a fuck off huge uber database of EVERYTHING about you from birth to death and evertything in between being sold to the highest bidders and being accessed by every Tom Dick or Harry plus their Uncles Aunts and nephews.

2) Other countries national ID cards do not cost an arm and a leg

3) The UK national ID card specifically does NOT allow free cross border travel, so you'll still need your "whopping" passport.

So in answer to your question... yeah I'm bothered.

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Anonymous Coward

Captain Mainwaring

How does an address prove who you are ?

Why is any body's business where if live ?

Unless you want to arrest me at 6am maybe.

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FAIL

Re: Pray Silence

'Oh honestly, are we really that bothered? I quite like the idea that most other European countries have - a national ID card, that they can even travel with to other EU member countries IIRC. Me? I go to France, I need a whopping big passport to get in the door.'

The other countries don't have a massive database, collecting all sorts of personal information (which they compel you to give). Their governments also have, in general, a better stance on actually protecting the data they collect.

And finally, the other governments don't sell off the 'non-private' data to the highest bidder. Ultimately, the intention is to make this card a requirement for virtually every transaction. Your spending profile will then be harvested (in exactly the same way as electronic transactions can currently be harvested by your bank / ccard provider etc) and sold to the highest bidder. The only difference is that you won't have a choice as to whether they sell it or not.

And when they find a way of linking your health and dna records to it, they'll flog the information from them as well.

So yeh, i'm that bothered.

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Anonymous Coward

@Anonymous Coward 13:46

How amusing, yes post anonymously you wouldn't want people knowing you want an ID card :)

If idiots want there own ID card, then let them pay through the nose for it, jump through the hoops and generally put themselves at a big disadvantage.

But, and it is a big but, don't expect others to be quite that idiotic.

I would be quite happy with just numbered bank accounts, and to do most transactions in precious metals and gems, it is far more sexy, and stops the old Peeping Nazi Labour Toms.

Everyday it would seem, seceding from the UK becomes more and more attractive.

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Meg Hillier, the identity minister

Meg Hitler is my local MP, I didn't vote for her, I wasn't living there at the time, and given her record I wouldn't.

Funny thing happened recently tho'.

The local Labour Party has started knocking on doors, although they aren't sending Meg around, no she's way too unpopular, they sent that nice Diane Abbott from Hackney North to see us...

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Pint

Annoymous Coward

AC, I think you might be missing my point here. It is an unfortunate fact of life that some organisations, Banks when opening accounts, mail delivery firms and I'm sure a few others, also require proof of address as well as proof of identity before they will dispence their service to you. This is why a photocard driving licence is useful in particular as it provides both sets of information on one card. My original point was that this National ID card is only a means of establishing your identity, but, as far as I can see, does not contain the owner's home address. Surely this will means that in some cases that a second document will have to be carried around to back up an ID card.

For the billions of pounds that this government is spending on this project, why couldn't they have included the holder's home address as well? It would certainly make the document a more useful form of ID; As it stands at the moment I doubt whether it will ever be the one-stop-shop that various Home Secretaries have claimed it would be.

But anyway, just like you, I am a vehemently opposed to the introduction of ID cards for many reasons and hopefully all these discussions on it will, after next spring, become academic.

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Doomed to fail

"The more you tighten your grip Governer Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers..."

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Stop

@ The Original Ash

"THE NEXT GOVERNMENT WILL ABOLISH THE IDENTITY CARD SCHEME."

Is that a "cast iron" guarantee?

;)

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Flame

MPs

MPs should be the first to get ID cards. You never know with them, they can be a bit shifty. We need them to have ID cards so that we can identify them when they claim expenses.

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Just a test

When your local Labour candidate comes knocking on your door in the next election don't forget to ask to see their id card.

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Coffee/keyboard

Lock in

NuLabour have said they will make it impossible for the next Government to scrap the ID scheme. Democracy, they've heard of it. I take it this means the contracts the suppliers on the scheme have signed up to have been written so they can't be cancelled or that the cancellation penalties are so high that it will cost the same or more to cancel as to go forward.

Having seen David Cameron's decision not to hold a referendum on the Lisbon treaty if it's already too far gone will he cancel ID cards if he has to pay £x billion to get nothing instead of £x billion to get the card database? I'll believe it when I see it.

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Anonymous Coward

As a large business I'd like to see ID cards

because if we have ID cards then we will have to have ID card readers so we can track people properly. If we have ID card readers they need to be truly secure. If they are truly secure then your talking £10k for a reader. If we are taking £10k for a reader then most small shops will close down so their customers will have to come to us.

Bring it ON.

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Flick it?

Has the technique for recognising a genuine ID card advanced beyond "flick it and listen" yet? Enquiring minds, etc.

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FAIL

Do I get to make my mind up about ID cards

or do I have to listen to a UKIP sponsored geek site? C'mon guys. Forcing political views on people is slightly right-wing. Oh wait, so's UKIP. When I say slightly...

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Welcome

@AC 22:55

"do I have to listen to a UKIP sponsored geek site?"

It's a big internet. You're welcome to go where ever you like. But it's takes a big stretch of the imagination to conclude El Reg is a hot-bed of right-wing, Eurosceptic political indoctrination!

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Alert

yea yea yea

"THE NEXT GOVERNMENT WILL ABOLISH THE IDENTITY CARD SCHEME. THIS HAS BEEN A MAJOR PART IN THE CAMPAIGN BY BOTH THE CONSERVATIVE AND LIBERAL DEMOCRAT PARTIES."

And we know that all politicians keep all promises they make to get you to elect them.

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FAIL

i knew my history teacher was wrong...

'Forcing political views on people is slightly right-wing'

Fuck me, i always thought Stalin was a communist. How fucking wrong can you get???

Sheesh.

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Anonymous Coward

A useful ID card?

Even when the idea of an ID card was first talked about I thought about the idea that if everyone had a public/private certificate on the card it could be really useful.

You could get a card reader for a PC and this would allow you to prove your identity online - whether you wanted to use online banking, credit card identification (especially if you wanted to ship to an alternate address), council services or even allowing online voting. The rest of your biometric details wouldn't need to be made available - just your certificate which lets the reciever know just enough information as deemed necessary. It would be safeguarded by a PIN or a fingerprint reader.

The card as it stands is just useless to just about everyone in it's current form - even the Government.

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If I owened a shop I would

Tell people to show me some other ID as I didn't know what the fuck that bit of plastic was.

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