back to article Sun and Apache: the Java scars that endure

Apache Software Foundation (ASF) pioneers have toasted 10 years of independence and successful code development at their annual conference in California. Speakers who spun-up the project in its early days celebrated building a community that has stayed (mostly) friendly and dedicated to the ideal of building open-source code. …

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Dead Vulture

After years of...

After years of Sun fighting with Microsoft over Microsoft changing the Java implementation on Windows platforms, for the sake of building features that would not be in all of the other Java implementations - it is not surprising that the testing suite is managed with a strong license.

Java exists for cross-platform compatibility and ensure software for Sun's platform by making an ecosystem that extends to competitor platforms... in contrary to other vendors who made software which did not extend onto Sun's platforms.

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Jobs Horns

TCK

"..Sun’s refused to release Java Test Compatibility Kits (TCKs) under a license ASF considers friendly."

I don't get this. Do Sun charge for the TCK then? If not then what does it matter what the licence is? Apache don't have to distribute the TCK to show compliance (assuming sun will give them access to the TCK).

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Thumb Down

So...

IBM and Microsoft (both competition to Sun... and Oracle) put big money in ASF, but they are totally neutral. Not only that, but even when Sun showed interest in joining the ASF, they rejected them... So, really, pollitically, what do you expect?...

Red Hat already certified their version of Java with the TCK, so I see no issue there.

I think ASF should try to solve the issue from their side, instead of insisting on attacking Sun... They are a minority in the JCP, so treying to force their way through it is not going to work.

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Silver badge
Stop

RE: Victor 2 and Sunshiner ACs

Just in case you've forgotten, the most common webserver on the web by a massive margin is Apache's. Not any product from Sun nor Oracle (in fact, the Oracle DB has Apache bundled into it). And then the majority of those webservers are on Linux, nor Slowaris, and definately not Oracle Linux. And that's not just becasue the Apache product does the job so well, but because users trust the ASF. Last time I checked, Sun and trust were usually mentioned in the negative in the Linux community. By turning it into a Sun vs the ASF punch-up, Sun has once again alienated the very people they are also trying to persuade to switch from Linux to Slowaris x86 or Niagara. The only hope is that when Larry gets his hands on the controls he slaps some sense into the Sun Java team.

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Unhappy

Pretty Obvious

that Sun don't want to give credibility to ASF's java implementation. That's the only reason for withholding the TCK. Sun might not want to admit it openly, but they've decided not to. If it were for any other reason Sun could easily say "you can't use the TCK because.... or unless ...". They're not saying that because they don't want ASF to use it period. Sad thing is that Sun thinks that playing dumb everytime the question arises will make the issue go away.

J.

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FAIL

@Matt

Your statemtent is wrong, in many levels.

First, in the sense that most of those apache Apache webserver don't pay for support from anyone. They use opensource, they don't care about TCK or anything like it.

Second, Apache webserver has NOTHING to do with Java. Harmony is a completely different project than Apache web server.

Sun is on the negative on the noisy minority of Linux zealots. It's very much on the positive on the vast majority of it's users and developers.

Apache is not Linux. So, I don't know were do you get your comparison from.

No one has made it Sun vs ASF, but the ASF. And it smells a lot like IBM's work from behind the stage.

Your Sun bashing has taken you into talking absolute non-sense, please stop before you hurt yourself.

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Anonymous Coward

ASF should remember...

... that their Java credential goes as far as Tomcat, remind me again who donated that code???

The ASF should grow up and cough up for the TCK. Its the way Sun's Open Source works, you can play for free, but for serious work they charge - thats called business and while Sun hasn't been doing too well on that front recently, you can bet that stance will continue with Oracle who essentially use the same model.

Strikes me that this anti sunacle puppeteering again, the antitrust thing with Suse and this with the ASF - you can be almost sure to find a blue velvet fist up both their jacksies. Sour grapes methinks.

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Happy

RE: @Matt

"Your statemtent is wrong, in many levels...." Your statements are just the usual Sunshiner bleating - "Sun is always right, Sun is never wrong, everyone better do as Sun says or they're stupid".

".....First, in the sense that most of those apache Apache webserver don't pay for support from anyone. They use opensource, they don't care about TCK or anything like it....." Really? I'm guessing those Sunshiner blinkers meant you missed the Reg article on how well Redhat is doing in the recession. They made something called a profit - look it up, then look up the last time Sun made one. All that through companies paying for subscriptions and support for "open source". And believe me, as a corporate customer of Redhat and a user of several Apache Org tools, we care a lot about standards - the more the better.

"....Second, Apache webserver has NOTHING to do with Java...." Lol, the funniest one yet! Where do you think all those Java apps will be running, on printservers alone? Get a clue, think before you bleat, then try posting again. Apache has the webserving market sown up, Linux is a lot more relevant than Slowaris for Java in the long run, and so Oracle needs to make peace with the ASF to get the Linux community putting standardised Java apps on those Apache webservers. Otherwise, who knows - maybe the Linux crowd will just tire of Sun's Java and make their own alternative, and then what value will be left for Larry from Sun's carcass?

"....Apache is not Linux...." Correct, but the two go hand in hand. Just go check all those Apache servers and you'll see the majority of them are running on Linux of one form or another. It's been over a decade since Slowaris had any share worth mentioning in the webserving market. Sun need to get over their ego and actually try working with others. Sorry, I should have said Oracle should - it's too late for Sun, they fought the open source wave and lost big time!

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RE: RE: @Matt

Dude, seriously... Think about what you are writing

>"Your statemtent is wrong, in many levels...." Your statements are just

>the usual Sunshiner bleating - "Sun is always right, Sun is never wrong,

>everyone better do as Sun says or they're stupid".

YOU are saying that, no one else.. If YOU hate Sun, that's your problem.. more than that, that's your issue, get over it.

> ".....First, in the sense that most of those apache Apache webserver

>don't pay for support from anyone. They use opensource, they don't

>care about TCK or anything like it....." Really? I'm guessing those

>Sunshiner blinkers meant you missed the Reg article on how well

>Redhat is doing in the recession. They made something called a

> profit - look it up, then look up the last time Sun made one. All that

>through companies paying for subscriptions and support for "open

>source". And believe me, as a corporate customer of Redhat and a

>user of several Apache Org tools, we care a lot about standards -

>the more the better.

WRONG. Red Hat sells an operating system support (among other things). Sun sells Solaris support too, and it comes with Apache Web Server too. But most people using the LAMP stack don't pay for support, they don't care about it. Nobody said anything about Red Hat or the recession, you talked about "the most common webserver on the web by a massive margin"... but one thing are the users and other are paying users. That's open source for you, in case you didn't notice.

>"....Second, Apache webserver has NOTHING to do with Java...." Lol,

>the funniest one yet! Where do you think all those Java apps will be

>running, on printservers alone? Get a clue, think before you bleat,

>then try posting again. Apache has the webserving market sown up,

>Linux is a lot more relevant than Slowaris for Java in the long run,

>and so Oracle needs to make peace with the ASF to get the Linux

>community putting standardised Java apps on those Apache

>webservers. Otherwise, who knows - maybe the Linux crowd will

just tire of Sun's Java and make their own alternative, and then what

>value will be left for Larry from Sun's carcass?

You really must refrain your self from commenting on stuff you have no idea about.

Your "Java apps" run on an application server... like glassfish or tomcat (donated by Sun to the ASF in 1999). Web servers are for web sites.

Linux and standards... hehehe that will be funny.

Linux is open source... but open source does not mean linux... try to understand that.

>"....Apache is not Linux...." Correct, but the two go hand in hand.

>Just go check all those Apache servers and you'll see the majority

>of them are running on Linux of one form or another. It's been over

>a decade since Slowaris had any share worth mentioning in the

>webserving market. Sun need to get over their ego and actually try

>working with others. Sorry, I should have said Oracle should - it's

>too late for Sun, they fought the open source wave and lost big time!

Wrong. A lot of them also run on solaris and freebsd... and many others. And once again:

1) Web server =! Java, and, Java =! Web server.

2) Java SE != Java EE... Harmony is Java SE-like (OpenJDK), your "java apps" are Java EE... you obviously do not know nor understand the difference between those, so please, before embarrassing yourself further, do some research.

3) Open Source != Linux

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