UK gets final warning over Phorm trials The UK government today came a step closer to international embarrassment over its failure to act against BT and Phorm for their secret trials of mass internet snooping technology. The European Commission said it had moved to the second stage of infringement proceedings after the trials, revealed by The Register, exposed …
I don't see how the UK Gov can actually fulfill the requirements of the Commission within the specified time limit. This means it is likely that the UK Public will foot the bill (huge fines) for the complete lack of action by the UK Government on this issue.
I submitted my case to the CPS over 12 months ago after writing to the Director of Public Prosecutions to seek action after City of London Police failed to act on the criminal complaint I made against BT and Phorm for their covert trials - still the case is "under investigation".
Maybe now the CPS will see the wisdom in prosecuting BT and Phorm for their illegal activities.
It is a shame that the tax payer will foot the bill, but it is a relief to see that the EU is protecting our rights to privacy where our national laws won't.
The only issue I would have is that those 'massive daily fines' should be levied on those responsible, not the government in general. That way, it punishes the politicians and not the taxpayer, otherwise to them it is just another externality as they continue to strip the country's assets for themselves.
"...the case will be referred to the European Court of Justice, which has powers to impose massive daily fines on governments who do not meet their legal obligations."
1) We already pay "massive daily fines" to the EU in the form of those member fees, or whatever we're spinning them as nowadays...
2) Any fine on our government is a fine on the electorate, most of whom can't wait to see the back of this scum anyway....
3) It's not like this government would care if you fined them - they'd just take more from the electorate in taxes to make up for it, since they know they're going to get a UK-sized boot broken off deep in their collective NuLabour arsehole in June anyway... Just don't force them to stop stealing from us in the meantime, and you can impose any fines you want.
If one side of government is pushing to have snooping on our traffic made de-facto, in the name of anti-privacy, how will that co-exist with this legislation?
@RegisterFail - you're correct, this is exactly why we need Europe - in this instance. You might be arguing the opposite if HMG were resisting deep packet inspection of ALL traffic to benefit private enterprises and it got foisted on us by Europe.
Do your worst Europe. We have Captain Mandy who will introduce new laws that will dispense with the need for the law courts and hand over our privacy issues to trustworthy companies like phorm.
Oh glorious Mandy, thank you for saving us from ourselves.
Spoil your ballet paper on election day. It's the only way to ensure none of the incompetent idiots get in.
The chap who was Chief Techy at BT Retail at the time of the denied trials. He left BT didn't he?
Oh yeah, he went to be Chief Techy at Phorm. Stratis Scleparis was the name.
He's left Phorm now too: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/18/scleparis_phorm_quits/
Will he now need to worry about an early morning knock on the door from PC Plod, or about getting his face printed on a police "spotter card", or his name on a police list of untrustworthy "domestic extremists"?
Or do the police not apply that kind of tactic to "professional" people (directors, honourable members, banksters, pension thieves, etc)?
The government allowed it because they dont give a shit about privacy & dont really understand whats at stake, particularly as some may be seen as rocking the boat for the rights of their constituents.
BT implemented it because they dont give a toss about their customers so long as they pay their bills & make a profit, so there was plenty of carrot for them as well has having one of their ex chums on the board.
The real culprits that should be fined is the company responsible for actually doing it, the scum bags from BT & Phorm. Regrettably it wont happen, but were the EU to fine them (hopefully) out of existence then it would discourage others from conducting secret trials with what is our private data.
The EU shouldn't fine the government, since that means the taxpayer has to foot the bill. Instead the ministers responsible for this should be forced to take responsibility for their own actions and pay the fines themselves. Or even better, raise criminal charges against them.
"Today, telecoms Commissioner Viviane Reding said: "Ensuring digital privacy is a key for building trust in the internet. I therefore call on the UK authorities to change their national laws to ensure that British citizens fully benefit from the safeguards set out in EU law concerning confidentiality of electronic communications.""
If Viviane thinks for one moment that electronic communications are confidential or will remain unknown, with so many in governments involved in snooping on the packets of information which are being sent over the internet, trying to gain a remote advantage in whatever they would be pursuing themselves, then she is poorly and negligently briefed.
"Exactly why we need EU"...
Because heaven knows, other politicians in the EU wouldn't waste £221k on installing a shower for a single event (which was never used anyway), £300k for a podium, £90k for a carpet... Err...
And of course, the EU wouldn't be wasting up to £700k per farm on paying French farmers to produce grain surplusses, which then puts farmers in the Third World (who don't get subsidies) out of business... Err...
Why the govt is being so recalcitrant and dilatory over this. The delays are becoming beyond mere incompetence. It is becoming so that it is easier to suspect that the govt want phorm's techniques to be used because they hope to piggy back their own surveillance on it.
Only both prompt introduction of the required changes into parliament and proper prosecution of BT, Phorm and the individuals responsible will take this suspicion away. With Mandy involved it looks even more suspicious. If I shook hands with that man I would count my fingernails afterwards.
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You're surely joking - yes, the EU has occaisionally done good stuff for the British electorate and this is a great example but give the Germans & French complete control over us? I'm honestly starting to think democracy itself is the problem here. I just don't trust anyone any more.
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"The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) allows those intercepting communications to assume consent if they have "reasonable grounds for believing" it is given."
Which is pretty silly of itself, but of course there needs to be some standard set for what constitutes "reasonable grounds for believing" and there needs to be some sort of authority able to make judgements on this where these "grounds for believing" are in dispute. Which leads us back into the previous paragraph.
"There is no independent authority to hear complaints regarding interception of communications."
So there is no authority empowered to make a judgement on what constitutes reasonable grounds.
It's that nulabour special again. As long as you say you are "acting in good faith" then you're safe as long as (a) you are on friendly terms with a minister or senior civil servant or (b) it would cause severe embarassment to a minister or senior civil servant if you were to be prosecuted. It's not actually written down, but that seems to be how it works.
Luckilly in this case the government have been caught out in their attempts to circumvent correct legal procedures. Remember people as far as UK.gov are concerned, legal process is for people like you and me, it doesn't apply to them.
Sorry our unelected political leader is unavailable for comment (as usual). Also his unelected political lap dog is too busy burying golden bones he keeps being given by his rich friends in business and the rest of the political elite are out cold it seems after a heavy lunch. I would just like to say our glorious leaders (who watch over us) need Phorm as we are all such stupid peasants who cannot get through the day without them telling us what to do and how to think and what to buy. They also need to earn their money poor things and they tell us its all for us, which is nice they care about us so much.
We are however sorry they haven't got back to you yet, but as you are finding out, you it seems are having the same problem we are all having in trying to get them to listen to us all. Rest assured I am however sure they continue to spy on all of you. After all you like us can say things they do not like. Sadly our political elite all refuse to listen to anyone who they think is talking nasty to them, because nasty to them is asking them to do things and clean their room and stuff. So they simply refuse to do anything to help anyone who asks and even then the few things they do bother to do, (which they tell us is all for us), we end up finding out was actually helping them get ever richer with better jobs and play at being important people.
We would very much like to help you with an election, but our political elite have decided they prefer to (for the time being) run the country like their own personal Totalitarian state. But anyway an election wouldn't make much difference as almost all UK politicians are only interested in their own greed and power to give them ever more personal gain. Therefore if you could arrange for their immediate arrest we would be most grateful. I fear however the only way they will listen to even you, the European Commission no less, will be when you can arrange to finish Guy Fawkes work. Still that would be a 5th of November to remember. Please hurry as there's still time before the 5th.
In the mean time I am sorry to say they will probably still sit back and laugh at all of us knowing we cannot remove or stop them. I would like to say we will have the last laugh once we throw them all out of power at the next election, but sadly we all know they will go straight into extremely well paid jobs and become even richer after their years of trainee work experience playing at running a country and setting themselves up ready for their new jobs.
Anyway, I would like to say thanks in advance for any help you can be and we look forward to the fireworks.
p.s. for the love of all things sane, don't whatever you do, fall for electing Tony Blair or the whole of Europe will be pulled down into this nightmare mess we are currently in.
@Our_Political_Elite: Sorry master, I know Phorm have now told you about me saying this and I will at once lay prostrate in the dirt so you can ride your horse drawn cart over me, rather than get dirt on its wheels for my crime of asking, please sir, can I have some democracy, freedom or liberty. I realize that democracy loving Domestic Extremists are everywhere and I will endeavor to do thy bidding in hunting down and burning these evil witches with their evil words of freedom and liberty who attempt to defy your glorious need for more wealth and power over us wretched souls who you fear so much. I fully understand and accept that you need Phorm to spy on us all, as we are such a stupid peasant class who cannot get through the day without you telling us what to do and how to think and what to buy.
"The EU shouldn't fine the government, since that means the taxpayer has to foot the bill. Instead the ministers responsible for this should be forced to take responsibility for their own actions and pay the fines themselves."
..and presumably the taxpayers - who voted the ministers in, or stayed at home/spoiled their ballots allowing other to vote them in - don't bear any responsibility?
Democracy Fail
"One hand sues for privacy infringement, the other tries to force DRM on us. WTF??"
The EC are being entirely consistent:
Consumers say "we know copying copyrighted material is wrong, but it's so easy to do and so incredibly useful we really, really want to be able to do it".
Companies say " we know snooping on people's private browsing habits in order to sell them stuff is wrong, but t's so easy to do and so incredibly useful we really, really want to be able to do it".
Both are wrong, and both need to be stood up against.
the biggest industrial espionage scam ever to become public knowledge, never mind the biggest illegal surveillance crime. And no one has yet been jailed.
Unintentional? What are the Home Office trying to suggest? A system that is purposely designed to intercept and manipulate telecommunications, using bastardised layer 7 switches, might be considered an unintentional accident?
"Officer, I tripped, and the switch fell into the rack.. thereby attaching itself to my network, and then I'm ashamed to say I didn't even notice it there". What a load of tripe.
They're generally so small they come at the end. Not voting doesn't; and shouldn't count.
Personally voting another ineffective party full of corrupt people in instead of the current mob is a waste of a vote. That or not voting for who you want because "They wont win in this seat". All arguments designed to keep the status quo.
I generally draw a box with "None of the above" and then tick it. You get some funny looks from the people overseeing the thing while you're obviously putting more than an X.
I can see the benefit of improving personal privacy, but I'm not sure saddling the taxpayers with "Large daily fines" is really going to do anything for our already completely fucked economy at the moment to be honest.
No doubt it will do wonders for the EC as a whole though, since they'll be getting a large daily income courtesy of the British Taxpayer.
"Phorm is... the biggest industrial espionage scam ever to become public knowledge, never mind the biggest illegal surveillance crime. And no one has yet been jailed." ....By dephormation.org.uk Posted Thursday 29th October 2009 15:25 GMT
dephormation.org.uk,
Have you any idea the mountain of dirt that has been collected on those who would think that they are running things?
Hoping no one notices that they are in cahoots with the current government.
Im sure their sleazy surveillance machine would have never got this far without some 'enterprise initiative' for scum bags that meet up in public toilets...
"I slipped & part of my body unintentionally entered his, that is the end of the statement"
The losers in this fiasco will be us, the tax payers.
"Lord Mandy" - What an arse, he wouldn't recognise "fair and reasonable" if it jumped out and shafted him, the twice disgraced, money grubbing twat! He is now, apparently, a "heavyweight" in nulabours arsenal. Up your arsenal I say to him.
The sooner we get this load of trough snouting, incompetent arses out, the better.
Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells.
I say we sic Miss Bee on 'em :-)
Taxpayers did not illegally propose or illegally approve Phorm.
Taxpayers should not pay the price.
Individuals (and a company or two) allegedly illegally proposed and allegedly illegally approved Phorm.
If the companies are punished financially, all they do is pass the cost on to their customers (if they bother to pay: hello MS EU fines).
If there is to be punishment, it is the guilty Individuals that need to be punished, not the innocent bystanders.
That is all.
I believe you meant to type that on a website that is somehow related to the EU, as typing it here is like farting in a wind tunnel...
Really people, i am all for venting, but tell someone who cares aswell!!!!
(and yes, i just emailed the office of the EU presidency about this matter... in Sweden).
"On one hand next election Labour will be gone which is great, on the other the Tories will sever ties with Europe as much as possible."
There are other parties. You have a point, that Labour is dangerous and the Conservatives are worse, but it's people like you, spouting shit like this that locks a lot of people into feeling that it's a helpless choice between two parties. If you don't like the alternatives, find the one that's closest and try to do something about the situation. The system *is* undemocratic, but it's not going to change if everyone just keeps accepting the idea that it's only a choice of one or the other and anything else is wasted or won't make a difference.
What is it with the people of the UK? The media keeps letting comments like this through and the populace just laps it up. I notice that they're already talking about Blair as though he is already president of the EU. That's gonna help - NOT.
Get your head out of your arse, stop listening to the media and look at the alternatives.
We do elect a political leader when we elect their party. When they change their leader, thats a big event.
Its a bit like the old saying about the person who thinks they still have the same broom, for the past 20 years, even though its had 5 new heads and 4 new handles. The point is, its not the same broom anymore, which is the point. This NuLabour with a new leader isn't what some people originally signed up for and don't even get me started on twice thrown out and unelected Peter "Heinrich Himmler Mk2" Mandelson. That corrupt scum bag is brought in and in months he is ruling over business dealings and suddenly has one of the most powerful jobs in NuLabour and don't forget he was the architect of NuLabour. He certainly has very powerful friends in high places. He reminds me of the manipulative way Himmler behaved in the decades before the 2nd WW which is bloody scary. Give that guy anymore power and the UK population would be in serious danger not just trouble with his shockingly arrogant lack of empathy towards people. He is the type of political Narcissistic weasel that is very dangerous.
The whole of NuLabour is behaving collectively exactly like they are no longer accountable and answerable to the people who voted them in and instead they are imposing their will on everyone. Every day we have more Totalitarian moves by them to decide how we should all live and they fail to show any empathy to any of us and all the time they are adding ever more ways to spy on us all so they can avoid any opposition to their corrupt plans. So no, we didn't sign up for this pack of corrupt arrogant greedy Narcissistic control freaks.
But they won't call an election because they know the vast majority of people hate them. Which means they know we don't want them in power over us. Yet worse still, they are relentlessly trying to increase their power over us all. They are not doing that for us all, they are intentionally doing it against us all.
Interestingly, this should have ramifications for the P2P three-strikes policy Mandy wants to introduce. Basically, the only way for an ISP to know that the P2P traffic of a certain internet user is illegal is to 'spy' on the content of the data. Under our right to privacy, ISPs must ask us our permission before they can monitor what we are downloading. If they do not, they are breaking the law.
So, if your ISP sends you a letter asking for consent to monitor your connection, tell them they can't. If they threaten to disconnect you if you don't, threaten to report them to Ofcom and to make a complaint to the police.
... we do not elect a party at all - that is what they want you to believe. We elect an MP, who does not have to be a member of a party at all. The electoral system was hijacked back in the mid-19th Century so that "party" became so important. I am seriously thinking of standing as an independent at the next election, and hope many others do as well. A Parliament with people who will not be under the control of party whips might actually clear out some of the crap ideas that have accumulated over the last fifty years.
I voted for my local Tory candidate, which by implication means the Tory party and their leader John Major. I would do so again as the alternative was Neil Kinnock - a good influence on a bad party, but not PM material.
Of course, as I said in '97, you get what you vote for - a dozen years of Police State eaves-dropping and violation of privacy, several wars (Yugoslavia, Iraq and Afghanistan) and economic smoke-and-mirrors that would make Hitler swoon with envy.
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