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If there's an upside to the Debian community's recent attacks on Ubuntu and Mark Shuttleworth it's that there'll be more conversation between engineers on the two distros. That's according to Ubuntu founder Shuttlworth, who believes engineers on major subsystems are now in a better position to talk, which will lead to greater co …

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Cadence?

Meta cadence? Significant amount of evolution? Meta cycles? This guy sounds like the Dilbert Mission Statement Generator. What the hell happened to "just shut up and code"?

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@Chronos

That is what hampers and extends Linux at the same time. People (very technical, highly skilled people) did "just shut up and code"; and what you got was a rich, diverse base of tools and utilities with serious disconnects and mostly only half-baked.

This leads to multiple tools having to be used to accomplish a single task, and often these tools could have been combined (or at least aligned) to make life easier.

Linux is a very rich eco-system but unless some order is brought into it, the chaos that created and invigorated it will ultimately destroy it.

I do agree about the "Dilbert Mission Statement Generator" bit though. And I had to cringe at my own use of "vision". Gawds, I'm turning into a PHB....

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Shuttleworth CyberIntelAIgent Space Flights ... Virtual Virgin Rides ?

I look forward to the M Series ..... Manic Mongoose :-)

Is Ubuntu into JuJu MoJo Voodoo Lead for a Flowering Following into Perfect Controls Calibration and FailSafe BetaTesting in Immersive XSSXXXX XSSive Experiences/Live Active XPeriments through the Live Operational Virtual Environment Portal.

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Just shut up and code

The fun will start once everyone starts releasing stuff on the 1st oy May and bringing the internet to a screetching halt.

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FAIL

Make things work stable first, then dream on

Mr. Astronaut, please, could you pay more attention to small issues, like, say, regressions in key components of the OS as a wholepackage? Because as part of some kernel upgrade, they borked the Atheros wireless driver. Google for "unsupported jumbo" and see what I mean.

I'm about to go back to XP on my Acer A150 netbook because of this. I cannot believe that they have allowed this to happen on what is, apparently, one of the key markets of the emerging Linux distros. And I'm not a novice, I have three more boxes with Ubuntu installed on them and have been using one or another flavor of Linux for eight years.

And yes, I know that I can try enabling or disabling the proprietary driver. Yes, I know that I can download the latest madwifi snapshot, compile it from source and install it. Yes, I know that I can try ndiswrapper. And yes, I know all those things are free and I should not complain but instead provide a fix. I could do all those things and probably some of them will work.

But folks, this is my "browse the net from the dining room" machine, I'm not going to spend a couple of hours to do any of those hoops, specially when I have preinstalled a copy of XP in another partition. Yes, it will be a lot less safe. Yes, it will need constant updates, antivirus, periodic scans and who knows what else. Yes, I'll need to install by hand all the missing bits and pieces that come with Ubuntu (Office suite, mail client, usable internet browser and not that IE joke, etc) Yes, it will have 12 icons in the tray and pester me with all kind of commercials, update notifications, etc. But the "boot XP" fix takes 2 minutes vs. at least two hours of fiddling with Linux, plus the enormous pleasure of seeing whatever fix finally works being broken again by the next kernel/distro upgrade.

But hey, I'll be able to use my browser!!!! A message to the Ubuntu devs: if you want Linux to reach consumer level, this is not the way of doing it. Now, keep dreaming on your astronaut clouds.

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@Chronos

"What the hell happened to "just shut up and code"?"

Try to remember that Shuttle-boy is a space cadet.

Go with your gut, ignore the marketing hype.

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Vista Service Pack

He's not wrong about that Vista Service Pack 7, or whatever it's called... It's heaps better than Vista Classic.

I like the idea of Ubuntu and Debian devs working together more because there are usually common bugs.

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Moment of bafflement

For some reason I saw the surname and my brain filled in "John Shuttleworth" rather than Mark, which made the rest of the article very confusing. However, I think that maybe John Shuttleworth should be making some of these presentations as I'm sure they would make more sense to the man in the street.

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Gates Horns

OMG

"trying to establish commonalty that will lead to better collaboration and co-ordination and strengthen the overall meta cadence."

If it sounds like Microsoft, it probably is Microsoft. He's been in too many conversations with Barmy Ballmer and the bullshit has leaked in and infected his brain.

I used to think Shuttleworth had something, but anybody who talks like that is a twat.

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Re Moment of bafflement

Nice one, breakfast. ;-) Motion Seconded.

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WTF?

Do you hear that?

*RIPPPPPPPPP*!!!!

That's the sound of a fork happening!

I use Ubuntu all day for my day-to-day work, it's great but this Linux distro in-fighting it getting up my nose now! Debian is a solid distro but they are such a bunch of pompous tw*ts!

It was funny when there was only 5 distros about. but now it's just pathetic and another reason Linux will won't make the splash on the desktop it so richly deserves, tw*ts like the Debian mob making Linux people look exactly like everyone perceives Linux people to be like, pompous, arrogant and ultimately retarded!

I'm glad I jacked in my Linux box at home and signed up with the Revered Mooni....sorry Lord Jobs of Apple, best move I ever made and if I could convince the company to spring for an overpriced fanboi box, I would do it at work too!

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Stop

Turn the other cheek

On the other hand, maybe Shuttleworth deserves some credit for not lowering himself to the level of the retarded whinging coming from the Debian community and for trying to act like an adult. I hope this little flame war does end in better communication between the camps, because both distros are great in their own way and can only grow stronger by working together.

Oh, and on the subject of PHB-speak, if you want Linux to succeed on the desktop, then someone has to go and talk the talk to the Dells and HPs of this world and, to coin a truly fucking horrid term, do some 'product evangelism' . It's the only way the Win monopoly will *ever* be broken, because regular users will never install a new OS on that old machine - they just go and buy a new box.

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Happy

Re: Turn the other cheek et al.

"if you want Linux to succeed on the desktop"

Is that an assumption I see before me? My own OS of choice, which is not Linux, will never gain significant share on the desktop and you know what? I'm completely unconcerned about that. In fact, I'm quite contented, as evidenced by the icon. I use it (you'll note: No evangelism) on the desktop, but then I'm one of these stark-staring bat-shit crazy maniacs that actually matches the software to the tasks I wish to accomplish while leaving out all of the nasties I can really do without. Besides, Netcraft confirms *everyone* is doing quite nicely thank-you-very-much where it counts:

http://uptime.netcraft.com/perf/reports/performance/Hosters?tn=september_2009

"someone has to go and talk the talk to the Dells and HPs of this world"

For those of you obsessed with "beating Windows on the desktop" and "getting the OEMs to pre-install," worrying about "market share" and "desktop penetration, " I just have one simple question, as concise as it can be, asked from a position of seeing bugger all actual real advantage to the users of or the programmers that created this seething, chaotic mass of software that is GNU/Linux:

Why?

It's a genuine question that I haven't seen answered to my satisfaction yet (arrogant bastard, aren't I?). It usually comes down to fanboyism, an unhealthy obsession with and hatred of The Beast of Redmond and nothing of any real substance. Personally, I think the current development model works rather well. Security holes are getting patched as they filter down to the various repos, users aren't left searching for updates and the only people inconvenienced by it are those who want to treat it *like* Windows with a single dominant project directing all the others. Because no one GNU/Linux distribution "owns" all of its parts, this is never going to be feasible, even with all the "synergy," "leveraging" and "meta-cadence" in the world.

(PS: Sorry to pick on your post, goggyturk, but you were the one with the cojones to come straight out with it in plain English, so please take it as a mark of respect, just as "seething, chaotic mass" is intended as respect for the Linux development model for those that understand the strengths it brings.)

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@Chronos

Normally I don't comment or respond to comments on here (fanning the flames is too risky) but Chronos has asked a reasonable question and I thought I would put forward my thoughts on the answer.

"Why"

I use both Windows and Linux at home, but try to convince many of my family and friends to use linux, specifically Ubuntu. I do this not from any interest in market shares and what-not but because of that simplest of Human motives, laziness.

Generally when something goes wrong I get called and bugged to fix it, and from my experience if I have convinced them to use linux I sacrifice a short time setting it up and showing them around and then get bugged a lot less than if they are using windows.

I happily agree that linux isn't for everyone, but getting it onto mass produced machines from Dell et al would make my life easier because then my older relatives would have heard about it and be less scared of the geekery.

These are just my thoughts but maybe you will find them at least a partial answer to your question.

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Linux

Why?

Well, I don't know if that's the opinion of the majority of linux users, but I would like to see Linux get more market share and become widespread just because then we would get some love from software makers.

I mean, surely, there is GIMP, but many, many people would like to use Photoshop. If Photoshop where available for Linux, maybe they would use it instead of buying overpriced Macs.

My girlfriend needs to use CAD applications for work, and so she's stuck with windows.

Maybe if Linux got some more market share, these softhouses would start making apps for it. And maybe, if these softhouses started making apps for Linux, Linux would get more marketshare.

And I'm not talking about "freetard". I mean, if we got to spend money on an windows copy, and more money on an AutoCAD copy, we would gladly spend money in an AutoCAD copy to run on Linux.

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@Chronos

Why?

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass about market share. I do, however, care about my own time.

My 90+ yo Great Aunt, running the variation of the Slackware 12.2 distribution that I originally built for my Mom, hasn't called me for computer support in over 10 months. Prior to that, I'd get calls to "fix my Windows, please" a couple times a month. These days, the wife & I make the three-hour round trip drive a couple times a month for tea, instead of to fix her computer. Much nicer.

The kicker is that she's turned a bunch of her aging friends on to Linux ... to them, it's "the version of windows that Martha's nephew gave me" ... I've tried explaining that it's not actually MSWindows, but they aren't really equipped to understand the distinction ... and frankly, it doesn't really matter, when you think about it.

When properly set up, Linux just works. When set up according to the manufacturer's suggestions, Windows is an accident waiting to happen.

Note that I'm no fanboi, I have Microsoft, Apple, IBM, HP, Sun, Linux, BSD, and etc. products running in my machine room as I speak (including archaic & obsolete stuff that I need to support my customer base ... DEC Tops-20, anyone? How about Tandem? Amdahl?). All of them have their uses, and they do what they do as well as can be expected.

None of them, not a one, combines the stability, ease of use, security, scriptable remote maintainability, and hardware compatibility of a properly setup Linux system. (Before you flame me, the keyword there is "properly", just in case you missed it.) The BSDs come close, and I could probably do the same with them, but I personally prefer Slackware (probably because I've been using it as my own desktop since late 1993 or thereabouts).

THAT is why. It's been over a third of a century since I started making money with computers & networking, and I'm more than ready for my "tech support for end-users" hat to go away. Linux has a shot at doing just that. Will it happen to any extent world-wide? I honestly don't know. But in my microcosm it is happening now, one machine at a time.

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