back to article Euro project to arrest us for what they think we will do

Radical Think Tank Open Europe has this week exposed a study by the EU that could lead to the creation of a massive cross-Europe database, amassing vast amounts of personal data on every single citizen in the EU. The scope of this project also reveals a growing governmental preference for systems capable of locking people up …

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Big Brother

Minority report?

Do we get the benefit of having two of the three databases having to agree? or is it one fudge of a system which has no comebacks?

Missing: Liberty, last seen many years ago, presumed dead and buried.

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WTF?

Not Just Orwell

Well... smatterings of 1984 of course, but could we be on the verge of seeing the sort of society & law enforcement as portrayed in Minority Report ?

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Big Brother

Holy Minority Report, Batman

"...recognition of abnormal behaviour..."

Abnormal by what definition, exactly?

Screw this, I'm off to live in a cave and eat moss. Oh wait, that's a bit abnormal isn't it... I'm scared now.

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Flame

Soon

A revolution in this country is long overdue, and if it does not happen soon, it will not be possible at all. The governments' love of databases and control is frightening. It's like something out of "Brazil" So you all know what to do? The next time there is a mass protest in London or where ever, go to it if you agree with the point being made, otherwise you'll lose what took hundreds of years of struggle to get. Show these gangsters pretending to be politicians that they WILL go the same way as Ceauşescu. Hanging from a lamp post or up against a wall.

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Big Brother

Officially not funny anymore

You mention how mistakes will be handled - what mistakes? If the system says I haven't done anything, but it predicts that I will be a serial killer, that's not a mistake - I haven't done anything, and the future hasn't happened yet. The fact that I could be prevented to travelling/getting a particular job or whatever doesn't bother them.

you'd think the Poles would have a bit more memory to see the problems caused by surveillance states etc

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Black Helicopters

Where is my...

... minority report?

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FAIL

Chuck

"amassing vast amounts of personal data on every single citizen in the EU."

Having watched a few episodes of Chuck, I can confidently predict that this will lead to wacky-non-lethal-spy-based-shenanigans on a regular basis, with hilarious consequences for all involved.

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Black Helicopters

Woosh of rotors barely audible.....

Enough said..... Anon for obvious reasons. 1984 anyone?

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Black Helicopters

(KGB+SS)^2

I thought those institutions were scary. This proposed scheme would make Hitler and Stalin green with envy. I thought the Chinese or North Koreans would be the first to implement this, I guess not. I think I'll steer clear of Europe if this ever gets implemented.

Anonymous for obvious reasons...*looks over shoulder*...

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Unhappy

Minority Report?

Oh great. Minority Report, here we come.

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Stop

prediction

The problem with such systems is that all of them failed in the past. The system selects political activists and people working for non government organisations as possible ciminals or terrorists, but fails to identify the real ones, who act like normal people and then commit a crime or turn into terrorists. Profiling and predictions are only good for opressing free speech and establishing a dictatorship.

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Big Brother

Oh great, now Big Brother gets Precrime!

This is a big step towards Precrime. Do the relentless control freaks want a revolution to throw them out of power? ... or by saying this, have I just earned my place in Room 101.

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Minority Report?

OK, let me guess, they'll have all this data displayed on some kind of super-high-resolution holographic display and move it about randomly with extravagant gestures?

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Welcome

When will the revolution start?

Not that I am advocating one, oh no not me..... I think our overlords are wonderful. The man in Whitehall (or Brussels) really does know best.

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Big Brother

In the mean time...

All through history governments have, by their very nature, headed towards collapse because they get too oppressive. A power to the police here and a nod towards socialism there, those in charge will always try to expand their power to justify their existence and pay grade. Ultimately it will take a revolution, bloody or otherwise, to return us to a civilised state but that's not going to happen any time soon because there are too many well fed retards watching Poop Idol on a Saturday night and stuffing their chops with doritos and beer.

When the revolution comes that mass will rise up and demand freedom but in the mean time the smart folk should keep their heads down because it's always the students and the academics who are first on the train to the re-education centres.

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Black Helicopters

Thought crime

From looking at your media choices and travel patterns, we have detected that you are likely to cause behavior disruptive to the state and your fellow citizens.

Pleas log-off and await your transportation to the patriotism realignment facility.

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IT Angle

Worth it!

Locking away the millions of dubious characters will be totally worth IT. At least I, and the other 23 respectable members of society can then live in peace.

Finally a useful application for IT, lock them away already!

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Stop

Who's pushing it?

Now it looks like we might not get a national database after all, this pops up.

Coincidence?

Or just another example of our government using 'EU' to push through unpopular legislation?

Who are the main drivers of this? I rather imagine it is UK, or UK business at the very least.

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Black Helicopters

All that money

Why don't we just buy the US system ?

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euro oversight... don't make us laugh

... when ALL of our governments, but particularly the one we have in the UK, do not want us to have any say about treaties such as the lisbon treaty, we have absolutely no chance of having any say over anything like this.

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Unhappy

Do...

...the algorithms allow for innocent people becoming criminals to any degree because of constant harassment by system-dispatched law enforcement?

System-Dispatched Officer - walks into your office: "You're under arrest for portraying abnormal behavior which could potentially lead to criminal actions."

You: "No I'm not, I haven't done anything."

System-Dispatched Officer: "Actually Section 56768135 states it's a criminal offense to deny a system-produced prediction, you're coming with us."

I was trying to be funny, but I think I just scared myself :(

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gjw
Dead Vulture

Really...

OE is interested in seeing less formal integration across Europe, and a return to more issues being resolved at the national level.

Please guys, don't publish all looney so called investigations from all kinds of silly so called think tanks cum conspiracy theory-mongers that raise their stupid heads.

'Europe' guarantees and protects more civil liberties than most of its member states ever would.

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Big Brother

While I'm sure the article is not tongue in cheek

Who are the paymasters of these misguided souls?

When we know who they are we can cut off the money supply because, in truth, that is what it is about.

The internet may have been conceived to be a democratic tool for information exchange but what it has become is a glorified 'porn line'. The more effectively Ms/Mr Public can be sold/bought then the more attractive it will be for those in 'Authority' to access and control the process and find out about us.

If we don't want that to happen we have to stop them - they wont stop themselves, it is not in their nature...

To do so we must firstly control the money supply and then change the culture. The former is much easier than the latter and must happen first or the greedy blighters will keep at it like rabbits!

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Grenade

Factual correction...

When they re-branded the RUC, they changed it to "Police Service of Northern Ireland", not "Northern Ireland Police Service".

The originally-proposed name was quietly shelved when someone in power finally realised that people might take the mick (no joke intended) if they were called N.I.P.S.

And after all, it's the UK police that wear tits on their heads.

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Anonymous Coward

Russell's Paradox

".. aims to develop models for abnormal and threat behaviours and algorithms for automatic detection of such behaviours as well as deviations from normal behaviour in surveillance data ..."

Will this system be self-referential? I only ask because I consider this kind of surveillance to be a threat to human society.

One wonders: Will the barbers shave themselves, or shall we do it for them?

"it's always the students and the academics who are first on the train to the re-education centres"

No - it's the people who are considered socially undesirable and who are picked on mercilessly. The only class of people I can think of that fits this description across class barriers are paedophiles. Watch closely what happens to them because it's going to happen to you next.

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Flame

We'll all moan here - and do nothing...

...about it. Don't know about you, but until recently, I had never felt frightened in my own country. Ever. Whether it is technology or politics, those visionary sci fi and political writers were only wrong about one thing, the exact timing of their prophecies which tended to be about 20 years ahead of reality. Almost there now children, almost there.

We could support these guys: http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/

But some of what they stand for may not appeal to us all, so what do to?

There are about five El Reg emoticons appropriate to this article. Ah, which to choose?!

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Where's the ship to mars?

After listening to people denying that we're walking into Stalin's wet dream I'd love to sit back and watch some morons loose everything -- but, unfortunately, the morons wanted to drag us all down.

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Big Brother

See you

all at the re-education center

After all with the results of scanning what I get upto

1. Violent video games

2. knows howto make explosives

3. Involved with the manufacture of guns

4. Involved with the manufacture of surgical instruments(definetly a Jack the ripper candidate)

5. Uses Linux (very very very abnormal behaviour there... refuses to use the same OS as the other 99% of the population)

6 and finally, has been known to take pictures of policemen using his camera and being over 6' tall

Yupp I need to be locked up for people's* safety

Yours

Prisoner #65423 , Cell #234 , Block D

*People being the muppets in charge

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Unhappy

I've got a great idea

We could start sterilising those that the database chooses, a bit like Doctors doing a blind diagnosis. That's never happened before.

Doomed to repeat history..........

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Big Brother

Do potential criminals float?

Like little tiny rocks? If they do, BURN THEM!!! Witches!!!

If they don't float, no problem - CO2 emission target met.

This EU government - using the term loosely - gets more like a Python skit every day.

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Grenade

Terrorism is not a real threat!

Risk of being killed in a terrorist attack if you live in the USA or UK is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 in 9 million.

To protect you from that risk, we are letting out governments take away our rights and freedoms a little bit at a time, waste our tax dollars, fight questionable wars, divert law enforcement resources from REAL threats.

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Flame

How complex are the predictions?

"Evening all! The predict-o-tron says that you will go insane with rage at being arrested and kill the arresting officers then successfully lead a peasant's revolt. Are you going to come quietly?"

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You know...

...I can't think of anything more finely calculated to turn law-abiding citizens into criminals, terrorists, and revolutionaries, than for people to be punished for crimes they weren't even *thinking* of committing. After all, if you're going to be treated as though you've been convicted of a crime no matter what you do -- why not actually commit the crime? At least that way you stand a chance of getting a little good out of it.

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My God.

"This is a big step towards Precrime."

Did none of you nose-picking fools watch the fucking movie? The idea of "Precrime" in the movie was based on the precognitive capabilities of (presumably mutant) humans; the EU's latest plan involves statistical analysis of supposedly reliable behavioral indicators.

It's not that I expect people never to wear tin foil hats; while I consider it merely an enjoyable pastime, I realize that many people find it much more addictive than heroin, and behave as such. But if you're going to go dribbling off on some conspiracy theory nonsense, could you at least check to make sure that the few facts you have in common with reality are straight?

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Anonymous Coward

The Fourth Reich

off to find the little Gaulish Village with the Magic Potion.

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Silver badge

Re Soon

"The next time there is a mass protest in London or where ever, go to it if you agree with the point being made"

And spend several hours tightly jammed with a mass of other people into somewhere out of the way where nobody can see you? With no way to get out, no access to toilet facilities or medical services?

The police have made it entirely clear that they have abolished the 'right' to protest long ago.

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Silver badge
Flame

Government Announcement

Future contributors to this thread should note that voicing ANY opinion on future government plans for control of subjects is grounds for entry on our surveillance systems and a disciplinary mark on your state record. We assume that any positive comments are sarcastic.

People who have already contributed are hereby fined £1000, under the new Government Civil Penalty scheme, which enables fines to be levied without the tiresome inconvenience of going through the courts. It will be automatically docked from your next pay packet.

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Megaphone

Vote Lib Dem and UKIP!

Ditch the Tories and Labour, and replace them with UKIP and the Lib Dems. Then they can argue against each other, UKIP exposing the dangers of the EU as it currently exists, and the Lib Dems wanting to reform it, democratise it, make it more transparent and accountable, blah blah blah. What they'll agree on is that there are all sorts of problems with the way the EU currently is, since both parties can use those problems as arguments in support of their respective positions.

Okay, perhaps replacing the Tories with UKIP is a bit implausible at present, but the Lib Dems replacing Labour isn't quite so far fetched. And the Tories seem really quite Eurosceptic these days anyway.

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Black Helicopters

Ah!!--for the heady days of 10 years ago....

When we thought that information technology would usher in a new age of human freedom!! Maybe instead of technology I should have devoted my career to marketing mountaintop survivalist cabins, complete with weapons locker, off-grid power systems and home food preservation systems :(

Black stealthicopter--because now it carries a strike team from the Department of Public Security and it has been upgraded with a built in real-time link to the database of future enemies of the people.

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Black Helicopters

Fear

To those who are afraid, good.

To those who are not, you need to be.

I used (note past tense) to respect the Police/Law Enforcement, now I find I fear them more than I do a possible "Terrorist Attack".

Terrorism; "the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear"

Yep, sounds like what the governments are doing.

Not Anon because I know I'm already on some lists and if they think I'm that much of a threat for exercising my Right to Free Speech hiding wouldn't help me, hang on, someones at the doo

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Silver badge
Alien

v2.0 Novel Phormations ......21st Century Networking ... Brave Territories Style

Metadatamining is a razor-sharp two edged Sword of Damocles ........ for whenever you/a system would profess to know of everything that everyone was thinking and going to do, the question is asked why does the system not supply us with new thoughts ....... which is not at all difficult to do, is it. All IT needs are Advanced IntelAIgents Systems with ESPecial Servers for Media Production of Virtual Reality Projects.

For of course, there is an Abiding Colossal Flaw in such as would be Remote Iterative Thinking, because what a third party analyst thinks a first party subject/object is going to do, is merely a reflection of what they, the third party would/could/might be able to do, and could never be considered a valid interpretation of a remote first party choice, for a change of direction/mind, into an infinite number of alternative imaginative thoughts, is the truth instantly available to all and is always taken at such higher levels of Confusion ........ Progress ....... Evolution.

And the SMARTer System will always Virtually BetaTest itself to Discover Catastrophic Systemic Flaws for Correction rather than Permitting Vulnerabilities to Persist and Pervert and Subvert AIR&dDevelopments ........ Magical Mystery Turing Trips ...... ZerodDay Rides ..... which is what the Future holds in Store with ITs NEUKlearer HyperRadioProActive ProgramMINGs

And here is one such Virtualised BetaTest for Systems' Engagement towards Enlightened Resolution/Astute Handling/Proxy Marketing ...... http://tinyurl.com/BetaTest-XSSXXXX.

Oh, and just one more thing before we move on to greener pastures and other subjects, .... nowadays it is incredibly easy to communicate with anybody/anything on the planet, so rather than a third party falsely wild guessing and inventing a first party future thought, just cut out all the Middleman FUD, aka C.RAP, and Simply Ask. All you Lose is Ignorance and Arrogance and what you Gain is Knowledge Aforethought and Facts.

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Pirate

Dear governments of the world

FOAD!

>Future contributors to this thread should note that voicing ANY opinion on future government plans for control of subjects is grounds for entry on our surveillance systems and a disciplinary mark on your state record. We assume that any positive comments are sarcastic.<

Entropy is a wonderful thing.

The problem with defining abnormality (or 'Freedom defined is freedom denied.'), is that you have to have a baseline normality, and how thick that line is. Is S&M abnormal, or the guy who goes for a walk at 3am for quiet time, the group who hate Britain has <no> talent, people who hate Tom Cruise in Minority report and think he and the kids ruined 'War of the worlds'? Is murdering abnormal? governments appear to love doing it in the guise of freedom, oil or whatever.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Hassan i Sabbah, 10th century. Crap! I'm quoting a Middle East terrorist.

Iching: Things fall apart from the centre (or something).

The bankers (paranoid conspiracy coming up), think they can control the worlds population for their own use, chips in brains, global government etc etc etc, but this too shall pass.

Terry Pratchet insult: May you live in interesting times.

And finally: Rocky horror picture show: Don't dream it, be it.

Peace out. Don't try to be normal, be abnormal and fuck 'em!

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Fear of Life

"Abnormal" or "normal" are subjective descriptions of being - in the eye of the beholder. Those tasked with the challenge of establishing the boundaries of normality are the agents of the neo-fascism which is extant. Who, then, is to define the conception of "normality" which the history of philosophers, prophets or political theorists has established as non-existent? The eccentric, the "indie" or alternative culture, those in dialogues of dissent or perhaps those who still insist on using cash rather than cards, chips, security codes?

The essence of humanity is a diversity of being, of culture, of taking a risk on life. The corporate finds it simpler to deal with a monocultural market. To resist those who would have us deny our humanity requires a pan-national awareness at a popular level which is absent.

We needs must extend that awareness. Something of a challenge when the propaganda/PR fosters a culture of fear-of-the-other, regards those who hold strong personal faith, philosophy or engage in political action as some form of threat.

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Correcting the Fear of The Other?

"Abnormal" or "normal" are subjective descriptions of being - in the eye of the beholder. Those tasked with the challenge of establishing the boundaries of normality are the agents of the corpo-fascism which is extant. Who, then, is to define the conception of "normality" which the history of philosophers, prophets or political theorists has established as non-existent? Where is the room for the eccentric, the "indie" or alternative culture, those in dialogues of dissent or perhaps those who still insist on using cash rather than cards, chips, security codes?

The essence of humanity is a diversity of being, of culture, of taking risks on life. The corporate finds it simpler to deal with a monocultural market. To resist those who would have us deny our humanity requires a pan-national awareness at a popular level which is absent.

We needs must encourage that awareness. Something of a challenge when the propaganda/PR fosters a culture of fear-of-the-other, regards those who hold strong personal faith, philosophy or engage in political action as some form of threat.

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FAIL

@ Aaron Em

whoooooo! (holds handbag against chest).

I watched it. It is about so-called cognitives seeing things before they happen, but not necessarliy getting it right, and as a result of one getting it wrong (the aforementioned minority report) then this report is expunged from the system and the two assumed correct reports being taken as true.

I can't think of a better film to compare this ludircous proposal with, apart from the daft idea of cognitives.

Let's assume that the cognitives are actually 3 government held databases. Then let us also assume that some techy analyst with no real qualifications makes a massive assumption about behaviour based on never-before-seen data. Now let's have them apply this to the billions of perfect entries into the database and come up with a score.

Now, one of the databases doesnt agree, OK, wipe that entry as it is anomylous. Hold on, this bloke has a low score on two, but a high one on the third. Wipe it? No , store it indefinately.

Data protection shows an entry is wrong, correct it? Yes, that will take 12 years. This report says he will possibly do something we consider wrong before then.... arrest him.

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Gold badge
Alert

Re: (KGB+SS)^2

I don't know about Stalin, but I'm sure that Hitler would approve of a pan-European police state run by the Germans with the active collaboration of the French.

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Coat

Suspicious behaviour

Forms of suspicious behaviour (from David Mery's article "Innocent in London", GIYF if you haven't already got it bookmarked):

* I went into the station without looking at the police officers at the entrance or by the gates, i.e. I was ‘avoiding them’

* two other men entered the station at about the same time as me

* I am wearing a jacket ‘too warm for the season’

* I am carrying a bulky rucksack

* I kept my rucksack with me at all times (I had it on my back)

* I looked at people coming on the platform

* I played with my mobile phone and then took a paper from inside my jacket.

Let me guess, the database will be confidential and so they won't be allowed to give you this amount of information when they use the database as an excuse for arresting you?

I'm glad I emigrated from the UK. My next move will probably be non-EU, I hear (from a Chinese colleague) that day-to-day freedoms are much better in China as long as you don't want to vote, whereas here (Ireland) if you vote the wrong way (Lisbon) they just ask you to vote again, and both in Ireland and the UK the only parties with much chance of getting in aren't going to do anything significantly from each other.

Time for a massive souveillance database perhaps? Then we can correlate frequency of speeches with Hansard with the phase of the moon, and find out which MPs are actually werewolves ;-)

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Silver badge

Hiding in Full Sight Challenges to Intelligence Services ...... White Hat Active Testing ...

.... by Red Team SMART Players/Non-State Virtual Actors

Actually, you might like to consider that there is a much bigger problem for that which we presume to be the establishment/status quo, should it ignore thoughts which have been Openly and Transparently Shared for their Uptake and Communal Action, and which then, as they are further communicated into wider foreign fields for Consideration and Uptake, and embedded as future sleeper agents/steganographic code in Native Operating Systems, would cause them to rethink and react badly with the imposition of subjective sanction/arbitrary censure ..... for that would be akin to a criminal entrapment, should their thoughts be criminal in nature and unjust.

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Big Brother

Paranoia

Reminds me of an old RPG called Paranoia: "Trust the computer, the computer is your friend."

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Terminator

It needn't Work to Function!!!

@ Tony Paulazzo

"""

The problem with defining abnormality (or 'Freedom defined is freedom denied.'), is that you have to have a baseline normality,

"""

No you do not - Defined standards are an encumbrance, not a feature.

Assuming the system does not work At All - but is believed to work - you are completely free to pull anyone off the street, disappear people, prevent them from getting a job, whatever the situation merits.

The capriciousness will create more fear of sticking out in the plebes, thereby controlling them better because how can one even hope to game a system that does not have any discernible rules?

Every Western government's wet dream come true!

"If in doubt, Robo-Nanny is against it!" will be the law of the land

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