back to article Met shops self to IPCC over terror toddlers

The Met Police was today taking a firm line with, er, the Met Police as it referred itself to the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) over allegations of misuse of its powers. Today’s referral follows an incident claimed to have taken place on the morning of Wednesday 29 July 2009 when two men approached a 43-year- …

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Grenade

Ironic isn't it

How ironic that the powers that be have granted these powers to prevent "terrorism" and to "protect civilians" when overseas the UK and it's allies have managed to kill hundreds of civillians and they don't brand that "terrorism".

...and all it does is increase the chances that someone will get ultra-pissed-off and decide that revenge is on the cards. (It's most often not 6 year-old or 11 year-old girls!)

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FAIL

Fantastic

Brown family, were they perchance?

Another 2 children growing up prepared to carry backpacks of fertiliser?

Result.

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Stop

Vetted?

And have these two police officers been vetted to ensure that they're not paedophiles in disguise?

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uniform behaviour

Apart from the other obvious abuses, your article suggests that the S44 searches were carried out by officers in plain clothes. My understanding is that this is not legal. S44 allows only officers in uniform to perform searches.

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Flame

without showing reasonable cause

The fact that searches can be carried out on a whim and property seized without reasonable cause, is of itself outrageous. How did we let it get to this, that an unelected career officer can act as judge and jury?

As for searching the kids - if that happened to mine I'd be lodging a complaint of child molestation against the officer. I'm not having some cop sticking his hand down my daughter's top to "search for bombs". Yeah, right.

By the way, I presume that all police officers will need to be certified by the new ISA now since they undoubtedly come into contact with children more than three times a month. And since they're doing it officially, they'll have to pay £64 each. Or will the HO give itself an exemption to its own laws? I wonder...

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Big Brother

Little Hitler is alive & well...

"...This investigation will look at whether the use of these powers in this case was lawful, reasonable and correctly carried out."

Lawful? - possibly so, under NuLab's plethora of ill-thought out oppressive anti-personal freedom laws, although their precious Human Rights Act might be used to oppose this.

Reasonable? - never in a million years. This would only seem reasonable to a totally paranoid, power-crazed "official" - almost certainly as compensation for being under-endowed in the "appendage" department.

Correctly carried out? - something unreasonable cannot be correctly carried out since being unreasonable SHOULD preclude it from occurring.

How the hell did my country ever get into such a state?

Along similar lines, Johnson states that the recent pop-bottle bomber convictions "..prove that our presence in Afghanistan is necessary..."

Run that past me again - a plot carried out by people from East London (& probably Bradford), said plot being hatched/masterminded in Pakistan, said perpetrators being trained/briefed in Pakistan. So to prevent this, our troops are being killed in Afghanistan.

Either NuLab are lousy at geography, can't read maps, or are totally useless at everything. Even their sophistry is singularly unconvincing. A plague on their houses!

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WTF?

It all smells a bit fishy to me.

Do we even know for a fact that these were real coppers yet? Because this whole incident sounds to me a lot more like a mugging crossed with a con-trick than it does an actual genuine police stop-and-search. "stand in front of a CCTV camera in order to have his photograph taken"? That's just... I dunno, wrong somehow, it doesn't fit. Would set off all my subconscious alarm bells ringing, anyway.

(Of course that doesn't exclude the possibility that the people who robbed him actually were coppers, as well as thieves. It's not unheard-of.)

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Flame

ACAB

They continue to alienate themselves from the general public, more powder to the keg. It would be interesting to know why the person was stopped, where they "ethnics" Or is it just plod on a power trip? From what I can remember, only uniformed officers can undertake searches.

I sincerely look forward to the day when the general public has enough of this type of behaviour and starts to congregate around such officers when they are conducting these activities to remind them that they are outnumbered and best behave themselves. The day will come soon when these jerks overstep the mark with someone and get a good kicking, the public will just look on.

Getting fed up with this Government and its hired thugs! Roll on the revolution and republic!

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Grenade

2 men? Two young girls??

Searched? In the street? Plain-clothed coppers? Luckily, not in the woods. (Note to self: Print a couple of fake Met Police ID cards, so me and my mate can have a quick grope of some nippers whenever the urge takes us).

Bloody kiddie-fiddlers. Hope those "London's Finest" find their DNA on the sex-offenders database. Now, THAT would be justice...

Beggars belief! Are we sure they were Plods, and not a couple of crims just after nicking a few personal items? Has he checked his wallet?

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It's been niggling me

for a while now

I have no idea what an official police ID card looks like. How do I check the plain clothes officer is genuine?

If plain clothes police have the power to take away your things like this, then how easy would it be to impersonate a plain clothes police officer and basically mug people.

Same with unmarked cars, if I fail to stop because I believe I will be car jacked they would do their nut! But again, someone with criminal intent could fit some blue radiator lights and be able to stop you with very little risk of them ever being spotted or caught.

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plain clothed?

If these two officers were in plain clothes is it legal to use Section 44?

The link provided states quite clearly that Secion 44 authorises officers "in uniform" to perform a stop and search, it makes no reference to plain clothed officers...

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Gotta love 'em

The Met have got it right. Stop all young girls and frisk em. If you werent a copper, you'd be locked up for that!

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If they've stopped that many kids...

Isn't it about time we put the police on the "might be a peado" vetting list along with other adults who have similar levels of contact and are in a position of trust.

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Black Helicopters

Plain clothes "police".

I hope the plain-clothes "policeman" showed some form of ID that the stoppee was able to independently verify as legitimate.

I smell a nice mobile-phone and ID theft opportunity for people who could pass themselves off as plain-clothes "policemen".

And with an optional sideline in touching up young kids in the street.

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Stop

Pedo's on the Prowl

I hope these policemen have passed their CRB checks.

Searching a young child maybe less about fighting terrorism more about getting a thrill and a free grope!

The way the Police are driving the Public's opinion of them into the mud isn't right. Who am I supposed to tell my children to go to if they get lost or need help?

Anon. Obviously

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Big Brother

Police?

Have to consider the possibility he has just been conned and robbed...

Big brother just in case....

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Pint

were they really rozzers?

sounds like this guy just had his stuff nicked.....

beer. cause it's friday.

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Big Brother

IPCC ...hahaha

"There is little doubt that the police may use section 44 powers in this way."

There is plenty of doubt - to me at least; from your link to the act

"An authorisation under this subsection authorises any constable *in uniform* "

"The complainant claims that one of the men identified himself as a *plain clothes police officer* and carried out a stop and search of all three individuals,"

I have no doubt that the IPCC will take this *very* seriously - and if the officers are found to be breaking the law they will be reminded to think of a better excuse for harrasing people in the future.

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IT Angle

Hmmm

Not sure how The Daily Mail is going to report this.

a) "Paedophile Police given new powers to abuse!!!!!"

or

b) "Asylum seeking terrorists force children into terrorism is police search probe!!!!"

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WTF?

Filthy pigs

So the pigs are molesting children in the street now... The attack of the paedo-nazis!

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FAIL

Time for a coffee

I was wondering what toddlers had to do with climate change.

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Anonymous Coward

2,331 children, ZERO terrorists

Lots of tourists but no terrorists.

And that's just the abuse of the laws that we see. I bet nutter Smith gave them permission under RIPA to monitor all internet communications. Betcha. It's always easier to abuse powers in private, so if they're abusing powers in public then the abuse in private will be much bigger.

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Big Brother

Police State 2.0

Fair enough that coppers may have their suspicions raised and seek to settle the matter, but in the Good Old Days (TM), that used to involve a few quick questions and often an offensive and accusatory, "Okay, sir, on your way, but don't do it again", even when you'd done nothing wrong, but at least that was the end of it.

Nowadays an early opening line ( watch any of the 'police nicking people' TV shows ) is, "Got any ID ? No, that's not a good start is it". Even though ID is not compulsory its absence is often taken as a bad indicator. Guilty until proven innocent attitudes kick in from the start.

In the heyday of Suss Laws at least it was only harassment, these days it's far worse. Personal items can be seized for no real good reason and entirely innocent people put through no end of hassle and inconvenience.

Not all coppers are bastards, but the legislation leads to many coming over that way. The paranoia that everyone is a suspected terrorist, paedophile or ne'er do well is systemic and comes from the top. It suits authoritarian jobsworths who seemingly enjoy hassling people and treating all others as second class citizens, and that's becoming all-pervasive. Of course, it's all for our own good.

I'm torn though - On one hand, this has got to stop, on the other, wider application of such abuse of power ( no matter it's legally granted by Government Dictatorship ) would soon show those who think there isn't a problem, the 'I have nothing to hide, nothing to fear' groups who have their heads stuck up their arses, what the reality of an oppressive police state looks like. Most people only realise how bad things are when it happens to them and they need the wake-up call.

Unsatisfactory policing has been going on for years, only when Jean Charles de Menezes gets shot and the abuses at G20 get a public airing do the wider public get to realise. Most times it's hidden by police and government behind a smokescreen of 'anarchists', 'violent minority intent on causing trouble' ( old joke : 'yes, the police' ) and most people assume because it never affected them it's not a problem. The Met's referral to the IPCC in this case is as likely driven by reassuring the gullible public that there are 'checks and balances' to allow what they do to continue as much as anything else. The police want their abuses to be kept as quiet as a tree falling in a forest. While they can get away with it they will keep on doing it. When the public says 'it's all right by me' they are giving a green light for such behaviour to continue.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing", or not to realise that evil is slowly triumphing in the first place.

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Black Helicopters

Unlawful for all, and not just kids!

This must be dark comedy, the Police were forced to pay more respect to childrens' sovereignty, but conveniently ignore the fact that stop and search, without reasonable cause, is unlawful for any UK national, despite what this government says!

Blanket 'law' like this can easily become an instrument of dictatorship, and would rarely ever be useful for honest keeping of the Peace, if we had not allowed huge numbers of people, from less civilised populations, to get into this country, settle in this country, and disrespect our way of life!

This comment is not racism, or any other manipulative and deceptive Marxist label, it is plain common sense from one who want to live a free life without growing interference from a Socialist Corporatist state and aliens.

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Coat

Neighbours child with him?

In future the police would be justified to check that he had an ISA licence to be in charge of children. If not then they could fine him. He could have been a child kidnapping terrorists, you just don't know unless the person can present a valid licence to prove otherwise.

Jacked being searched for anything that could help incriminate the person.

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Big Brother

Like getting caught having sex with a bicycle

It may seem clever at the time, but it sure as hell doesn't look good with hindsight. The Met really seem to have outdone themselves on this one - it's hard to see how these stories can get any more embarrassing. Much as I feel for the guy who was harassed, these incidents only hasten the day some politician develops enough spine to give the police the political rogering they deserve.

Respect? I think not.

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Gestapo, Stasi or New Labour's police force?

What is the difference between the plain-clothes officer stopping this man and children and how it was done in true totalitarian states? It is a difference only of degree. The slippery slope we are now on to a fully blown police state gets steeper and steeper - we are sliding down it and cannot, apparently, help ourselves. We even still have people saying "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear". Finally, hopefully, voters are waking up and will throw out the New Labour authoritarians at the next opportunity. Thereafter, David Cameron has promised root and branch reform of the British police and this is well overdue, as too much power has gone to their heads, as suggested by a leading barrister yesterday.

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Anonymous Coward

err

how we know they were plain clothes police and not a pair of rather cunning and daring thieves?

However if they were members of the filth I'm little suprised, they just like to push people around, bunch of animals when they arn't actually working on solving crimes. leave the dogs to run wild and they will.

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Anonymous Coward

Citizens arrest?

I don't know if this exists in UK law, but what would happen if you perform a citizens arrest on a cop? Mutual handcuffing? An infinitive loop of Miranda rights reading?

:-)

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@AC 9:20

"By the way, I presume that all police officers will need to be certified by the new ISA now since they undoubtedly come into contact with children more than three times a month. And since they're doing it officially, they'll have to pay £64 each. Or will the HO give itself an exemption to its own laws? I wonder..."

The funniest thing about this is the revealation that "soft intelligence" (i.e. "gossip") MUST be taken into account when the ISA vetting is carried out.

So it's relatively trivial to anonymously suggest a police officer may have "inappropriate thoughts" about children, and they would FAIL an ISA check ...

Or an MP, come to that ... oh hang on, MPs are exempted ...

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Thumb Down

Hey, Where's the guy

who keeps saying 'if you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear' when these stories come up.

Come on man, we know you're out there

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Grenade

Re uniform behaviour #

Yup dead right, they have to be in uniform.

If they were real does the resulant assault and removel of property with the implied threat of violence constitute robbery, an arestable offence for which any person or groups of people may in some circumstances arrest them using reasonable force. Now there's an idea?

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FAIL

Dixon of Dock Green

..becomes Dixon in the dock. What's happened to England, my England. I weep when I read this kind of stuff. I loved my country, but not anymore. Glad I left.

Of course, if the '43-year-old' geezer has got his "I've passed my stop-and-search" police-issued boy scout certificate, as must be issued by the plods, then it'll probably pass muster as them being real plods (in every sense of the word).

Oh, yes, did the two lassies get a "girl guide" version, too?

But, no uniform? EPIC FAIL.

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Clear-up

Some interesting questions being raised on this thread. Here are some official answers (the first two confirmed by the HO: the third from past chats with the ISA).

1. Of course police can arrest in plain clothes...so long as they identify themselves. Just need to show a warrant card, and that's it. Otherwise, imagine the scene: two undercover cops watch a drugs shipment about to leave the warehouse forever. Waiting for the uniform branch, stuck in traffic ten minutes away. Ooops...better let them get away because we can't arrest. Nah!

2. Police also retain the powers of a police constable when off duty. Reason, therefore, not to wind up your police next door neighbour. That is significant when it comes to arrests, as a citizen's arrest is a very dangerous thing - for the arresting citizen. Get it wrong and you're facing a charge of false imprisonment. In one case, an individual who arrested a citizen's arrest and beat up the citizen was exonerated in court since it was held that an improper arrest was simple assault - and that to resist was self-defence.

Police powers of arrest are far wider and therefore very few let-outs.

3. Police will certainly be on the ISA base when it goes live...and possibly a few more besides. The ISA base is about regulating the activities of those working with "vulnerable" groups - not just children - and it makes sense, within the logic of the scheme, to include police in it.

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Anonymous Coward

In Ten Years What Will Britain Look Like?

Will the Tories roll back the emerging police state where criminals can run free, but ordinary members of public will fear to step out of the house because they'll be stopped by some officious little community support oik? I very much doubt it. The Tories make the right noises about the surveillance state, but there has been no large scale promise to restore the liberties of the British people. I don't know what the UK will look like in 10 years, but I'll bet you'll be CCTV with facial recognition as standard on every corner. I personally will never vote again for a mainstream party as they're all out of touch.

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Fake Cops?

It does seem quite possible, from the accounts, that these were fake cops.

Which is a pretty serious extra crime.

I've heard plenty of stories about fake social workers.

Is this going to end with our super-duper, all-solving, biometric ID cards having to change whenever we change employer? There's a huge amount of temporary employment out there.

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Anonymous Coward

RE: Clear-up

"1. Of course police can arrest in plain clothes...so long as they identify themselves. Just need to show a warrant card, and that's it"

Surely the question raised is actually:

Doody:

"An authorisation under this subsection authorises any constable *in uniform* "

Rented:

"Apart from the other obvious abuses, your article suggests that the S44 searches were carried out by officers in plain clothes. My understanding is that this is not legal. S44 allows only officers in uniform to perform searches."

J21

"The link provided states quite clearly that Section 44 authorises officers "in uniform" to perform a stop and search, it makes no reference to plain clothed officers..."

An assorted AC:

"Yup dead right, they have to be in uniform."

According to the link you provided it does indeed specify "in uniform".

I accept that I may have misread something here, but it seems to me that a number of people have questioned the legality of an s.44 S&S on the basis of the officers not being in uniform - as stated in the link provided. You appear to then be inferring we are a bit thick for assuming a non-uniform copper cannot make an arrest.

Please can you either clarify why we have all jumped to the wrong conclusion (a conclusion based on your article and your links) or I think you owe an apology

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Clear-up

"1. Of course police can arrest in plain clothes..."

Does this cover them using the S44 powers too? Section 44 uses the wording "...authorises any constable in uniform to stop a pedestrian..." which seems to be pretty specific.

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@Wayland Sothcott 1

"He could have been a child kidnapping terrorists"

I hate to niggle... OK no I don't

I assume you mean "child-kidnapping terrorist", a terrorist who kidnaps children, not a "child kidnapping terrorists", a child who is kidnapping terrorists.

also: @John Ozimek RE: "Of course police can arrest in plain clothes...so long as they identify themselves."

The comment above by doody relates SPECIFICALLY to Section 44 stop & search powers.

Quoting from Section 44 "(2) An authorisation under this subsection authorises any constable in uniform to stop a pedestrian in an area or at a place specified in the authorisation and to search..."

You note it specifically specifies "any constable ***in uniform***", so if a plain-clothes officer stopped them, it was not covered by Section 44. This is a wise part of this stupid law, as otherwise people could easily be robbed by people pretending to be cops. It needs to be publicised.

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Anonymous Coward

re Fake Cops?

It's actually quite an interesting idea, people have reached such a level of fear and paranoia that they are unwilling to confront someone they think maybe a police officer, let's face it how many of us could tell fake police id from real police id?

So infact the swell of new law, fear and, paranoia make it easy for criminals to impersonate an undercover police officer.

Exciting, I wonder how many people have been done over and not reported it? I wonder how many actual plain close police officers have used the trick to nick stuff? I recon there'll be more people done over by such acts then the new vetting of 11million people will find real peadophiles/dangerous people.

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FAIL

RE: Clear-up #

@John

1. They weren't arrested.

2. Nobody questioned powers of arrest.

3. What are you on?

4. Can I have some?

5. Cheers. :P

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@Lee (slightly off-tack, but...)

<<You appear to then be inferring we are a bit thick for assuming a non-uniform copper cannot make an arrest>>

Stop-and-seach isn't an arrest.* Therein lies the problem. stop 'n' search needs uniform, else it'd be easy to use that excuse for a series of muggings. However, a non-unifirmed copper _can_ make an arrest. I learnt that years ago from the Sweeny. Plus, from my Panda (union) Police pocket book, which stated:-

"A Constable is a citizen, locally appointed but having authority under the Crown for the protection of life and property, the prevention and detection of crime, the maintenance of order and the prosecution of offenders against the peace".

I learned that by heart, 35 years ago, as a trainee bobbie when even our whistles were inspected for being polished (Noo, Finbarr, Nooo!!!). Never forgotten it, BUT it puts the emphasis on Citizen, not uniform.

I believe, unless the law has changed, that anyone can make a citizens arrest, within guidelines - mainly common sense. It's stronger here in Finland, where it's illegal to ignore a threat, if you can reasonably deal with it. For example, driving, spot a fallen tree branch in the road, you absolutely MUST stop and move it if able. If not physically able, ensure the authorities are there before you leave. Another: See a drunk lying in the snow, you absolutely must offer assistance (even just call the cops) - it's not an option. You can't walk by. Nick his wallet first, natch. "Services Rendered".

(Still waiting delivery of the Feisty wife, Lee. Sadly no photos - Kodak don't make Kodachrome any more, and I never did get the hang of these digi - diga - battery operated pinhole cameras).

*From the Home Office site "if you’re carrying something illegal, such as a weapon, or the police believe you’ve committed a crime, you may be arrested". So, if you _may_ be arrested, then you haven't already been.

Site at http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/stop-and-search/

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FAIL

Un-Clear-up

John, this was NOT an arrest after witnessing a crime as in you example #1.

Try not to compare apples and oranges next time.

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Pint

Mairzy Doats

The reason for this is pretty obvious.

They need to prove they aren't racially profiling 'anyone' so stopping a guy with two kids is the best way to do that even if it is absolute horseshit.

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Black Helicopters

Never Mind the Bollocks

Never mind the arrest/didn't arrest issue - what about the seizure?!?

Supposing they were uniformed officers, and performed an 'authorised' stop and search under section 44. Can they seize items without arrest? Right there on the street? WTF??

The only thing more disturbing than the authoritarian powers NuLab have granted to the state to persecute citizens is the ignorance (and I include mine) about the limited rights they have deigned to leave us with.

So what is the law with regard to their powers of seizure? Come on Reg ...fill us in (before the pigs do).

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Flame

They wouldn't have got away

Had it been my daughter they'd have been pawing I suspect I would have left both their bodies laying on the walk. Can't even begin to expres the outrage at how out of line this all is.

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Joke

Re: Little Hitler is alive & well...

"A plague on their houses!"

That's incitement to commit acts of terrorism using biological weapons of mass destruction.

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Black Helicopters

Damn right

@AC - "Unlawful for all, and not just kids"

<quote>if we had not allowed huge numbers of people, from less civilised populations, to get into this country, settle in this country, and disrespect our way of life!</quote>

That's no way to talk about our Scottish overlords, is it? I, for one, welcome them....

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Alert

Paedo Plods?

"Concerns have been raised also at the way in which section 44 powers have been used against children. Official Met figures suggest 2,331 children aged 15 or under were stopped in 2008 – and of these, 58 were under 10."

How many?!?

"2,331" children molested by the Met?!?!?

Stopping and searching children, especially children under 10, in the name of anti-terror policing simply doesn't work. To say it's just not credible is to understate it. It's just an utterly blatant abuse of power.

But why even bother? Why stop and search children, including children under 10? Unless you're a paedophile...

Oh wait, I get it. So basically, the Met is one of the biggest paedophile rings in the country.

But seriously, what other reason would there be for abusing anti-terror powers to stop and search young children?

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Big Brother

Is it usual...

...to carry USB sticks and a CD when you're out for a stroll with the kids? Certainly undercover plod or the IPO mob (whichever, and comments here suggest the latter) must have *known* he had these things with him to stop and search him and the kids in the first place.

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