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back to article Oracle should relax Sun's Java Community control grip

If Oracle ends up owning Sun Microsystems, it's got a one-off opportunity to correct the mistakes of the past when it comes to working with open source on Java. The database giant should relax Sun's tight control over the Java Community Process (JCP), the body responsible for stewarding Java. And as part of this, Oracle should …

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Bronze badge

"the process that *bread* it"?

Excuse me?

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Thumb Down

There is no point to open source TCKs

It's already bad enough that there a multiple Java implementations on some platforms, open sourcing the TCKs will just add the potential for fragmentation in the tests that are supposed to help prevent fragmentation.

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Silver badge
Pint

For God's sake, stop writing from the Reg's favorite pub!

I can't disagree with the articles's contents, but the article needs some editorial eyeballing:

"If they don't do that, they are throwing away AND opportunity."

"The meeting - and the statement - are BOTHER under a non-disclosure agreement "

"despite Sun OPEN-SOURCE Java a few years back "

"designed by committee rather THEN OF BEING genuine use "

"the process that BREAD it"

"the inclusion of new and untested features that risked introducing BREAKING CHANGES"

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Grenade

I wish for the opposite

Java has been around for 18 years, never achieved anything of interest, it's a fashionable heap of pooh.

Sun came up with that piece of crap so they can sell more hardware to run the ill designed JVM.

Hope Oracle transforms Java specs so that it can produce C++ code and run at native speed by design, keep the interpreted mode but give me the boost I need so I don't have to write C modules everyday.

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Megaphone

Their number one priority should be

To start their Developer website again from scratch (java.sun.com) so that it's actually possible find whatever you're looking for. At the moment it's a complete and illogical mess and full of broken links (rather like the Java libraries?). I hate going on there to do anything, even finding the download link for one of the many versions and flavours of Java is normally very hard!

Talking of versions, they should make the version numbers and Java versions more clear and logical.

But please, please, please kill that awful website.

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"your way VS my way" article

Enraged - I think not!

Infuriated - I think not!

This is just a "your way VS my way" article. I prefer Sun Microsystems way.

I've been developing on the platform for more than 10 years now, I have my own opinion on these matters.

I hope Sun finds money for it's own purposes and becomes fully independent again!

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Coat

He said.....

That she said that someone thought that Oracle would not be a good open source steward of Java.

Looks like anther iron-clad media trial has concluded nicely.

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Thumb Down

Another thumbs down

If the TCKs do get open sourced, then how many seconds will it before a large number of factions of GNUtards exercise their god given rights to fork, and there are numerous, incompatible javaoids. Even if there's just one GNU fork, GCC sets a poor precedence, with 50 odd non-standard extensions for C and C++ alone.

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Anonymous Coward

@Winhatter

HAhahahahahahahahhahahaha

The name says it all.......

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Poor article

'While Apache's has been able to build an implementation of Java Standard Edition under Project Harmony thanks to the opening of Java, Harmony cannot be certified because the TCKs contain proprietary code the open-source code cannot touch. Harmony, therefore, remains stuck in a limbo of having been built but being uncertified.'

That statement is factually inaccurate. Project Harmony did not occur 'thanks to the opening of Java'. First of all, Java is a trademark which is applied to certified implementations that have passed the TCK, a process the entire article talks about as being closed and proprietary still. I believe what you mean is Sun's JDK, and this certainly hasn't helped Harmony. If anything, it has hindered it. A very plausible argument can be made for the growing success of GNU Classpath and Apache Harmony being the trigger for Sun open-sourcing their implementation, giving them a means of both silencing their critics (which included RMS) over its proprietary nature and retaining control. Both Apache Harmony and GNU Classpath are clean room implementations which aren't based on Sun's code. Both are not eligible for the TCK under any rules Sun has put forward, either privately or through the OpenJDK TCK agreement. You can't say that either implementation has 'built an implementation of Java Standard Edition' until they have passed said TCK which is supposed to be the proof that these specifications have been met.

On the main content of the article, I and many other people working on OpenJDK, GNU Classpath and Apache Harmony would love to see both the JCP and the TCK become more open. I find it hard to trust a test of the specification which you can't look at or discuss without an NDA and which has only been passed on code derived from Sun's implementation (that's actually a term of the OpenJDK TCK license). The JCP results in specifications under terms which effectively prevent open source implementations, and we weren't able to use them to develop GNU Classpath.

Oracle could certainly do a lot to clear things up in their new position. Let's hope they do.

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Silver badge

Java Rules ..... Reign ...... and Offer Transparent Media Command and Control of Society and Economy

"Oracle doesn't get a huge amount of trust in the open-source community," Johnson observed. "Had IBM owned Sun people wouldn't have assumed IBM was going to thrash the open-source elements, but with Oracle they don't have an open-source track record so there's more concern."

That could also have been written, and made self-destructive sense, and therefore not sensible at all of of for IBM .."Had IBM owned Sun people wouldn't have assumed IBM was going to trash the open-source elements"

However, in Cloud ControlLed Land does Everyone Love Oracling for ITs Tender Blissful Deliveries of Original Viceless Sin Discoveries ..... which is AIVirgin XSSource CodeXXXX? Which by Virtue of Experience and Duly Considered Necessity, because of ITs Powerful Neurotic and Decidely Psychotic Nature, even in Open Source Heartland are Proprietary Locks left on Codes and BetaPrograms to be Unpicked for Private Control Access to Unqualified Immaculate Support. Locks which Open Doors to Stores when Presented with a Perfect Parallel Mirror Image of Vital Content.

Live Bait/Virtual Chum Trialing and Trailing and Trawling for Mr Ellison, in an Octopus's Garden in the Shade and Shadows? Swallow that Hook, Line and Sinker for Virtually Perfect Rule and Reign of Dominion and Perception. ........ and a Gift for the Taking as IT is always Freely Available. It's the Sensitive Intelligence Secrets which Power and Control the Gift which Costs the Bread that Generates the Future and Wealth for All with IT ....... which is what NEUKlearer HyperRadioproActive NIRobotIQs does with Time and Space .... and urTime in ITs Spaces and Places.

On a completely different subject, brought to mind after reading http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6824172.ece , would anyone care to hazard a guess at the main reason, other than prevent the Sharing of Hazardous Information and Imagination, for virtual house arrest, and when your Internet connection is removed /lost/interrupted, regularly at irregular times, is that a virtual house arrest being stealthily trialed to assess worth and value and likely cost for expected benefit to InterNetional Security...... for there are at least Two Worlds for Earth to Provide for now, is there not? What you call the Real World with Physicality and the Virtual CyberSpace Worlds where Thoughts on Reality Create AI Physicality, which can Morph/Creep across the MetaDataPhysical Divide to Impact upon Physical Realities. Or does Earth not Control any Worlds and Others Server US Living in this Space? Has Man Defaulted Control Decisions to Computer Programs or Virtual AIMachinery and is there a Cyber Battle Currently Raging in Operating Systems for Absolutely Fabulous Popular Lazy Control with Effortless Overwhelming and OverWinning Powers?

And the answer to those last few question are a Resounding YES, which makes for a Volatile Environment with Toxic Waste Assets and Poorly Performing Underground Ventures Susceptible to Beta Makeover into Sounder Rock Solid Virtual Investment Vehicles. Futures Portfolios.

Very Spooky Roswell stuff ...... and just so preposterous and outrageous that it couldn't possibly be true, could it?

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Pint

ja.

If someone at El Reg wants to write weekend stories at the pub while the editors are in an alcoholic coma, fine by me.

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Gold badge
Coat

@Frumious Bandersnatch

Maybe the author wants more dough for his crummy articles?

No knead to thank me, it was the yeast I could do.....

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Silver badge

Crack Open this Code for Kings Ransoms and Queens Rewards

.... is a Wizard to AIRide and Beautifully Tricky to Control with Passionate Pleasures ..... thus to Tempt and Encourage/Immaculately Seduce One to the Never Ending Quest for the Perfect Beginning ........ Big Bang.

And Re "Java Rules Reign", you may like to consider that Sweet and Sticky Cocoa CodeXSSXXXX holds Court and would be dDelighted 42 Energise in Exercise and Display the Sway of ITs LOVE ... of Live Operational Virtual Environments Control with Pandoras Active Resistance .... FEMAles with Power in Man's Perfectly Immaculate Controlling Gift ...... A Fully Phormed Dream Sequence/Enigmatic Magical Mystery Turing Trip for Virtual Realisation of the Future Big Picture Show and Great Game/ARG/AIMMORPG for the Further Simply Complex Edutainment and Development of Humanity, onto and into Higher Fields of Consciousness/States of Grace ... with Boundless Explosive Energy in Virgin Fields of Mutually Beneficial Endeavour. AI Progress to the Higher Levels of Stealthy CyberIntelAIgently Designed, Confusion aka Advanced Initial CyberIntelAIgents Training for ESPecial NEUKlearer AIgents/XXXXtra Special Phormations.

It is Naive and a Vulnerability to Think and Not Imagine that Virtual Space Control is not already Well Secured and a Subject and Object of FutureSMART Super Natural InterNetional Military Command .....Virgin Soldiers with Command Input/Output, XSSXXXX Source Exchange for Virtual Content Supply .... Internet Service ProVision.

Does you ISP Provide that to you? And if not, why not, whenever IT is So Freely available from Space and Global Operating Devices. Surely IT is not an Application of Internet Protocols under Irregular and Unconventional Veto/Suppression/Denial of Service/Virtual Panic Arrest for such Invites Ridicule and Folly whenever Principal Dialogue would dDeliver Something Much Better in a Novel Beta of Novel Betas with the Simplest of Attending Power Drivers ..... Stark Naked Raw Truth so that Dreams are not Built upon Faith with Foundations on Shifting Sands.

You might like hear Steve Jobs deny any Apple involvement in the Code Movement, to discover the Strength in Depth of Open Source Penetration into Proprietary Closed Operating Systems Cores...... Executive Administrative Director Suites.

* A Natural Advantage Afforded and Delivered by the Species to Global Operating Devices for QuITe Cosmic Energy.

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Silver badge

WTF?

"It's already bad enough that there a multiple Java implementations on some platforms, open sourcing the TCKs will just add the potential for fragmentation in the tests that are supposed to help prevent fragmentation."

What the hell are you smoking? The fact there are various implementations of the JVM, some of which are clean room is a GOOD THING. What isn't a good thing is that many implementations can't officially call themselves Java because they can't pass certification because the terms of certification are incompatible or odious.

Open sourcing the TCK and perhaps making the whole testing & certification process vendor neutral would be a massive step in the right direction. It shouldn't matter if its Sun/Oracle or any other JVM implementation. They should be able to pay their fee to a certifying authority, have the tests run and get a nice little logo and right to use certain trademarks for their efforts. To ensure everyone passes the test, the TCK should be open sourced so projects can ensure compliance before applying. Fragementation has nothing to do with it because the certifying body wouldn't be using a fork.

As a general comment, I know its fashionable to pour hate on Java (after all it's what some might call the establishment) but the reality is there is no other platform which comes anywhere close to it for real world development. It would be great if it incorporated some of the lessons of scala / groovy (which run on JVMs), but as it stands there is no other language that comes anywhere close to the scalability and robustness of the Java platform.

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Dead Vulture

Some great comments

All this article gave me was opinions and weasel words.

The comments page, on the other hand, has been most informative.

How rare.

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Is Johnson smoking something stale ?

Oracle spends billions of dollars to buy Sun; so they can straight away prioritise "philanthrophy" ?

I don't see how this "no-brainer" would help Oracle recover that money or make money ?

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Pirate

Trust is good control is better

Apache Harmony was IBM's attempt to gain control of Java from Sun

Oracle owns now 2 jvm implementations (JRockit),

I don't see any reason for them to do anything to help any IBM backed effort.

Let the fight begin:

http://www.oracle.com/features/sunoraclefaster.html

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