The campaign to keep Gary McKinnon in the UK continues - this week sees the launch of petitions by both an autism charity and human rights campaigners Liberty. Staffordshire Adults Autistic Society's petition calls on the Queen or Home Secretary to intervene in the case of the Pentagon hacker, who suffers from Asperger's …
Is it me, or is anyone else sick of hearing Aspergers Syndrome.
Read this http://www.nas.org.uk/asperger
What the f*ck has that got to do with the 'crime'.
For the record, no, I don't think that he should be extradited, but we should have the gonads (are you listening, Brown) to say, look, he's a bit weird, looks a little weird, hell, he even acts a little weird, but there is no way we are shipping the poor fecker out there so you can f*ck him for 60 years.
He can serve his sentance here, probably showing HMG how to secure their systems and when he is finished, we'll send him over there to help you, becuase of course, you would have sacked the knobs that secured yours, right ?
"Fast track extradition allows US authorities to request the extradition of someone from the UK without presenting any evidence, but in the opposite case UK authorities hoping to extradite someone from the US would have to present probable cause."
Probable cause like, oh I don't know, the "accussed" admitting "it was me wot done it but I've got a syndrome so I can't help myself"
STOP - Thats what should happen now
I wonder how much effort the UK authorities would make to find/recover Mr McKinnon if he was kidnapped? (Obviously benevolently by people who would take good care of him)
The principle is virtuous enough but using MacKinnon to demonstrate the inequities of our extradition treaty is a fully loaded fail with the safety off. He's guilty, he confessed and his Aspergers should be no case for deciding the extradition as it'll be taken into consideration during his trial over there, just as it would here.
Top marks for attempting to change a policy that once again smacks of NuLab corwardice and incompetence but a gold plated uber fail for jumping on the MacKinnon bandwagon to do it. IMHO that's only going to obfuscate their cause.
Time to get real
McKinnon hacked, got caught and now will be prosecuted - as it should be.
It must be nice...
... to be able to afford those expensive lawyers who have made the entire trial into a media circus BEFORE it's even a trial. People are glossing over the fact whether or not he actually did what he was accused of in favour of "poor him, he's got Asperger's syndrome and is being bullied by the US"
this ain't going to happen folks
unless perhaps, as a nation, we tell the merkins to GO AWAY FOR EVER and leave us alone. And take Fillingdale, Mildenhall and Lakenheath with you. We've paid them back for helping out financially in two world wars, we ran away from our mandate over Palistine, as they (and their friends - pulling the strings) requested, we've been shafted twice by the Bush and Blair twins, so maybe it is time we said PHUK ORF! init, tore up any worthless treaties and pissed on the 'special' relationship we apparently have with them. They only use us as a very useful platform anchored off Europe. The very best of luck to president Obama.
>IF RANTOVER gosub END
Wait till he's in chokey, send him a really BIG paper plane, tell him to get on the roof......
@all the hang him he's guilty comments
As I understand it, his guilt has never been in doubt, although the damages caused by his misdeameanour are, as is the fairness of extraditing people to other countries without the need for evidence when the reverse is not the case.
The Aspergers is the last in an increasingly desperate series of attempts to block what is perceived as an unfair extradition to a country where the sentence is disproportionate compared to ours.
The primary defence is not that he has Aspergers, although latterly that is what has been said to try and legally defeat the extradition ruling.
surely if he was prosecuted in the UK he couldn't then be tried again for the same so-called offence (as far as the USA is concerned there was no offence, as they have no jurisdiction! but anyway...)
if the government refuses to prosecute, can he not just get someone to start a private prosecution against him? a prosecution is a prosecution whether the paperwork was filed by lawyers provided by the CPS or by someone else really makes no difference to the courts - the CPS are basically a government funded "we'll take them to court on your behalf" type organisation and is no different to any other lawyer, they don't have to be the ones that take the case to court (the only difference is they have the power to take over a prosecution from private lawyers if required... although they can not take over a case just to drop the charges and lose the case)
Substitute George Galloway for this guy
"Probable cause like, oh I don't know, the "accussed" admitting "it was me wot done it but I've got a syndrome so I can't help myself"
Did he? I don't think he did! He admitted accessing their computers. They claim he did MEGA damage, this is a lie needed to make the crime serious enough to extradite. He says he did zero damage. Their claim does not stack up, and since the court never sees their evidence, whether they can extradite under this process is never tested (also not in the US court, because the original reason for extradition can be changed later).
Think about it this way, imagine if George Galloway (labour MP hated by the Republicans, whom they made false allegations against) was wanted by Ashcroft for terrorism (the US Justice Dept chief who signed this).
They provide two pieces of information, the definition of the crime, showing it (Terrorism) is a serious crime, and details on how to identify George Galloway.
The piece missing is the evidence that George Galloway is a terrorist! The KEY PIECE OF EVIDENCE for an extradition is completely missing for the UK to US leg!
Now George's only protection is the Home Secretary, look at Alan Johnsons response to this. He's currently pretending that he cannot rescind Jacqui Smiths permission! Can George rely on Alan Johnson to protect him? Depends whether he's a friend or rival!
So you have no protection, and in fact this is NuLabour and even MPs have no protection from police raids with this lot in power. Nobody is safe under NuLabour, if this guy isn't safe.
Is it too friggin much to ask that you don't extradite people without evidence????
So many people and charities hark on about equality for those with disabilities. But treat them the same as a 'normal' person and all hell breaks loose!
Deport him and let the US pick up the tab.
McKinnon should move to Scotland
At least their Justice Minister had the balls to tell the US where to go over the Lockerbie bomber
be holding their own demo to protest at the sheer ecological waste of Liberty's campaign?
McKinnon should pay all costs of prosecution
in addition to normal fines and 50 or more years in prison for his crimes, McKinnon should pay for all costs of the circus act delay in extradition, prosecution and incarceration, as should all criminals.
If the US military were smart enough (I know, I know, bear with me) they'd not seek to prosecute but hire him as a white hat hacker. I mean, if he managed to hack into one of the (allegedly) most secure networks on the planet, through the internet, his skills have got to be worth something to someone.
I also have Aspergers and what a lot of 'normals' fail to realise is that we think in a different way to everyone else, which is why I can understand them using AS as part of the reason why he did what he did. No it's not an excuse but it should definitely be factored into the stuation.
@McKinnon should pay all costs of prosecution
"in addition to normal fines and 50 or more years in prison for his crimes, McKinnon should pay for all costs of the circus act delay in extradition, prosecution and incarceration, as should all criminals."
Well if it's a matter of cost, UK didn't think it was worth prosecuting it was such a trivial non damaging access to a computer. So on that basis he should pay nothing, perhaps petrol money for the rozzers that interview him and decided it was too petty to charge him?
As for the circus act, well we wouldn't have a circus act if the Home Secretary wasn't BoBo the Clown. They've put their US-Uk special relationship over their duty to protect UK citizens, and the sooner they are booted out the better. I'd like to see Blunkett pay for that treaty because he signed a treaty the US wouldn't sign without protection for it's citizens. What right to he have to hand protection of UK citizens over to a foreign power? None, so he's to blame and he should pay.
@John G Imrie
Wow! Has Anti Americanism really now reached the point where people are prepared to support any decision, even one so odious as freeing the convicted murderer of 270 souls, as long as it means they can stick 2 fingers up at the yanks?
As for McKinnon, he's admitted to the crime so I don't see what other evidence needs be presented. The myth that that the extradition treaty is a one way deal is also total nonsense, since 2004, 46 people have been sent from the UK to the US for trial, and 27 from US to UK. Considering the population difference between the 2 countries I'd say the US is more than honoring it's half of the bargain.
But hey lets not let facts get in the way of chance to bash American shall we. Oh and for the record I'm British.
My viewpoint on this whol debacle.
On the treaty (which I see as a separate issue): There needs to be probable cause on both sides.
What he did was a crime here, therefore he should be prosecuted here.
Generalised rationale for McKinnon stance:
Individual X resides in country A
Individual X commits act D which affects country B
If act D is illegal in country A he should be prosecuted under the laws of country A in country A.
If act D is legal in country A but illegal in country B he should be prosecuted under the laws of country B in country B.
The reasoning behind this is that any individual can be expected to know the laws for the country in which they reside, but cannot for another country - particularly where the laws are contradictory e.g. hand-drawn images of children in sexual positions.
This is called looking at the bigger picture, then applying it to McKinnon - so don't say that the reasoning doesn't apply as it's illegal in both places so the laws are consistent.
McKinnon is a lousy hacker
McKinnon ain't a great hacker so he's pretty worthless to anyone including society. The computers he hacked were not the most secure around. He dreamed up the arse-wipe syndrome long after he was caught so it's a non-issue and just a ruse to try and escape punishment for his crimes.
Re: My viewpoint on this whol debacle
So by your 'generalised rationale':
Bob lives in the US.
Bob emails a picture of a woman in a bikini to his friends Ahmed, Rashid and Hassan in Iran.
Iranian government believes that the good Islamic morality of the state has been corrupted by this picture being sent to its good citizens.
Iran demands Bob be extradited to stand trial under Sharia law.
And this would be OK by you?
46 vs 27
"since 2004, 46 people have been sent from the UK to the US for trial, and 27 from US to UK. Considering the population difference between the 2 countries I'd say the US is more than honoring it's half of the bargain."
Well no, the numbers of US crims would be 5x higher, so you'd expect 46 vs 200+. But the numbers aren't important. Even if they extradited 2 million, McKinnon is still entitled to judicial protection in his home country.
Just as the 27 US citizens got evidence of their crime sent to the US, so that reciprocal term should be included in the UK->US direction.
I see you present it as 'Anti-American' to dare suggest that the treaty should be balanced. BUT WE'RE NOT LESSER PEOPLE THAT AMERICANS, AND ENTITLED TO THE SAME PROTECTIONS.
Yeh we get it, Blair/Blunkett fawned over the US, negotiated an unbalanced treaty, and now nobody in NuLabour can admit their mistake for fear of losing face. So they have to be ejected from power.
Spot on. There is absolutely no reason to think that Asperger's Syndrome precludes understanding of right and wrong: all this desperate and wrong-headed campaign is doing is establishing in employers' minds the idea that people with AS are untrustworthy.
What's all this "paper aeroplane" stuff, by the way? Shouldn't they be making paper UFOs?
@ODFO and @John G Imrie
The issue isn't that he's admitted to hacking. The US have not asked for him to be extradited to face hacking charges, they have asked for him to be extradited for causing damage in the hundreds of thousands of $$ values (i can't remember the value exactly).
These values are clearly false as they happen to match exactly the figures required to bring someone to justice in the US.
The conversation will have gone something like:-
Lawer A:"how much damage would he have to have done for us to prosecute?"
Lawyer B: "at least $500000"
Lawer A to the UK: "We'd like to extradite him on the basis he's commited $500000 of damage".
They have provided no evidence that there was any damage other than to the Sysadmins reputation.
Anyway, how do you prove that your PC that's protected by the password "Password1" wasn't hacked and "damaged" by someone other than Gary? Just because he admitted he logged on, doesn't mean he was the first and last, and they can't prove otherwise (They arn't competant enough to change the password, they apparently had to pay $500000 to a consultants to come in and do that).