A Malaysian model faces six lashes of the cane for drinking beer at a beach resort in the mainly Muslim country. Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno, 32, was busted last year at a hotel nightclub at Cherating in Pahang state, during a raid by the state's religious department, The Telegraph reports. She 'fessed up to drinking beer, …
That is all.
So, if we go now to Malaysia, we could be offered to give six lashes to a 32-years old model's buttocks...
<get coat, run to the airport...>
Punish.. erm... him
"While always respectful of local customs, on this occasion your correspondent demurred, leaving the policeman to deal with the issue in the traditional manner"
Just as well it wasn't the Moderatrix that was travelling, she'd have probably had her own cane ready and waiting.
Why do we bother with countries like this?
I don't care WHY she is being caned (stupid laws, religious reasons or otherwise), but the fact she is being caned is wrong.
On the news this morning I heard woman aren't allowed to leave the house in the evening in Afghanistan. wtf?
The supposed civilised West should grow a pair, call out these backwards countries, and not tolerate/cooperate with them until they promise not to be a bunch of violent sexists stuck in the dark ages.
Same deal for China. I'd rather pay more for stuff than have some poor people in that cesspool of a country worked half to death to produce it as cheaply as possible. How can governments be so hypocritical and get away with it.
Caned for drinking beer?!
Which part of that is remotely compatible with humanity?
having trouble visualising
As the Vulture pilot and cabin staff are grounded (rubber band shortage, apparently), perhaps they'd get back to their bread and butter news illustration duties. 'How many was that, stewardess?' 'I believe that was 3 so far, Captain'. Teambuilding.
No ASBO's then
Like to see the little fuckers laugh when they are faced with a damn good thrashing. This is one aspect of shria law I think this country needs.
I was 'strapped' in school and it never done me any harm. In fact I would confidently said it probably done me a lot of good.
Caned model buttocks
I understand if one trawls the internet long enough, examples of models having their buttocks caned are available via this media. It doesn't seem to be exclusively Islamic countries that offer this kind of, erm, 'corrective' training either.
Mine's the one with the copy of Bare Bottom Spanking Monthly in the pocket.
"I was 'strapped' in school and it never done me any harm. In fact I would confidently said it probably done me a lot of good."
Didn't do much for your grammar... :-)
Just what I'm thinking reading the rest of this thread.
Leave it alone
The woman broke the law, it was a stupid law but she was aware of it's existence when she so publicly ignored it.
If you were caught anally invading a 14 year old Malaysian boy you may have countless defenses as to why it's a stupid law, doesn't change the opinion of the majority.
In their religous faith it is a sin to consume alcohol. Chrisitanity has its own crazy practices and you have no right to judge anyone elses.
*yawns* never did you any harm, chicken tasted better in your youth, men were real men, women cooked and washed up and Johnny Foreigner respected The Empire.
Yes, ASBOs are little deterrence, but meeting violence and anti-social behavior with more violence? Surely there's a better, more civilised way.
Ship the buggers off to the new territory? Iraqistan
... all the Daily Fail mindset El Reg readers applauding the idea of tying alleged perps to lamp posts so passers by can give them a good beating...
@ dunncha, AC11:31
"I was 'strapped' in school and it never done me any harm" -- Really? It seems to have taught you that violence is an acceptable way of solving problems. I call that harm.
@ AC 11:31
Agreed 100%. The EU should get together as a trading bloc and insist that no goods may be imported into any EU country unless they were manufactured under conditions that would be acceptable within the EU.
A very British legacy
Several forms of corporal punishment were introduced by the British when Malaya was a colony. I am not sure if caning was one of them but I am pretty certain that they still hang convicted murderers according to British procedures.
Such "barbaric" practices were in full use in the war against the Communist insurgents sometime between 1952 to 1960. Not so different to fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan today except we were defending our own colony, albeit giving Malaya her independence partway through the war.
As a Muslim country, Malaysia is nearly secular in practice and the application of caning as a punishment for "minor" offences does actually work as a deterrent. Perhaps we could now do with importing back a few practices so very much preserved and proven to work in ex-colonies around the world. Six lashes to the backside might dissuade the next drunken yob from using your local phone box as a urinal.
re: No ASBO's then
Bah, no country nor people deserve to be under Sharia law. Its a backward, uncivilized blue laws that oppress its people. The only people to benifit from Sharia law are the ones administrating it.
Just ban religion or blow the planet up now ffs
as per comment, seriously had enough of the religious muppets pushing there crap onto people.
Seriously if you get a religious text and put it on trial - would you be able to factualy prove any of it.
Seriously take scientology - thats more cridable than alot of them and for me that puts it all into perspective. Stop it now, show me a country that bans all religion and I'm there.
Let's not confuse one issue with another hey boss? That said, I'll bite...
First, at your school, I'll bet it was the same people every week who got lashed. If physical pain was an effective deterrent then Thailand would be drug free right now.
You can't just introduce corporal punishment into a liberal country whose penal system is designed around rehabilitation (yes, I know it does a piss poor job, another discussion for another day), it is the polar opposite of the current approach and the practical implications beggar belief (There are books written on this topic).
Lets just say we did decide to bring back the whip. Who would administer it? What crimes would be cause for a thrashing? Would children be exempt? Women? Old people? Ill people? Wouldn't some prefer a quick beating to years behind bars?
What form of man does institutionalized violence breed? What effect would the casm between what we teach to be moral and what the government teaches to be right have on the children? If Pavlov told us anything, it's that the message must be clear.
I've been as reserved as I can, but I dispair at your sort. You are reactionary and dangerous. Think about the implications of what you suggest.
I presume this is peninsular Malaysia and not Borneo? Whilst there I got the feeling they were fairly tolerant of such things. Certainly the area we were in was happy to provide drink to foreigners at least.
Bearing in mind that Malaysia is a mish mash of religeons, she was probably in a prodominantly Muslim area and should have known better. Not that I'm condoning it, but personally I'd choose the lashes over 3 year imprisonment.
At the end of the day, she was caught taking illegal substances. If you do that in this country you'd expect to be punished for it. The method may not be what we would find acceptable, but I personally fell that, in the UK at least, we spend far too much time worry about criminal's rights and not enough time questioning what is actually just.
If you're caught taking drugs in the uk (which you funded by stealing) you seem to get off with a warning and people queuing round the block to rehabilitate you. Kudos to a country prepared to enforce their law, no matter how barbaric it may seem to us. She'll recover quickly with no lasting damage and the point will have been made not only to her, but I would imagine most people who read Malaysian papers. 1 good example is better than 10 good laws.
Time for a bottom line. Don't agree with the punishment, but can't sympathise with someone who knew full well what the consequences of her action could be.
It's a dumb law, but it's also an inhumane law - lashes?? I mean - WTF?
That went out of English schools ages ago because it was deemed cruel and immoral, so why keep it in these backwards countries (no offense to any Malaysians, but you gotta admit, the punishment REALLY doesn't fit the crime)...
We have ASBOs, which, although laughed upon by the general poplace, and held-high with pride by the Chavs who they get awarded to, also carry a fine, which is a fair deterrant. But fining someone AND physically hurting them is not fair, all because you drank a beer which is outlawed in a religious law - to the best of my knowledge, and a bit of internet searching, it's not illegal by COUNTRY law to drink alcohol in Malaysia - it's just that the province in which this girl was caught drinking has a massive islamic population, and so it was more by popularity than anything else. I think religion should keep their F*CKING noses out of the countries business, and stop acting like archaic, inhumane dooches! And that goes for all religions, not just Islam (it's just that most people in the Islamic world pay attention to their religion, whereas most of us in "Christian" countries couldn't give a rat's arse about Christian laws and values).
Also, IT angle??
Conservative religious hypocrisy
I wonder who thought up the punishment? Spanking a naughty model's buttocks sounds a pretty good deal to me.
Re: A very British legacy
I suggest everyone expressing their approval of thrashing as a suitable deterrent for drunken yobbery bear in mind that this woman is being physically punished simply for *drinking alcohol*, not for drinking alcohol and subsequently smashing up a bus shelter and punching a policeman in the gob while singing 'you're going home in a fuckin ambulance'.
Not that anyone is explicitly condoning it - just that some of you don't seem inclined to condemn it. But that's up to you, of course.
Cause and effect
All legal systems are built around cause and effect, whether you follow a tradition of innocent until proven guilty, or guilty until proven innocent.
When the "effect" side of the balance is rendered impotent (i.e. ASBOs, stupidly short sentences, easily skippable bail) then the system fails.
The price we pay for lax laws in the Western world is that yobs soon learn they can do what they want and suffer little consequence. However, in many other civilised countries, such as Malaysia, people soon learn that small infringements lead to big consequences. It's the other side of the coin.
I'm not saying that stealing an apple should be dealt with by chopping limbs, but if you've had ratboy break into your house, nick your telly and s**t on your living room floor, you can probably understand the sentiment.
And rightly so
Give woman free reign and look what happens - you get Harriet Harman.
Mines a pint. Hers is a glass of water from the tap in the kitchen.
believe in whatever flavour god you like but respect your fellow man, if your religion prohibits this then it's just a regeime for controlling sheep and not a genuine religion (or a genuine god)
Malaysia is a fantastic country which I've been fortunate to visit 6 times. It is a minority of states in which the dictat of Islam is truly upheld (Terengganu, as I saw it, being the strictest) - if you pick your head out from your copy of the Daily Mail and actually go out and look at the world, starting with those which offend your ridiculous 'principles' so greatly, perhaps you'd take a different viewpoint.
As at least one person above pointed out she was surely aware of the law when she broke it. This is what angers me when Brits go abroad to countries like Dubai and break their laws but have the audacity to claim their behaviour was fine.
We have no right to interfere? Really?
Perhaps we should've let Hitler exterminate the jews then? Or allow millions to starve in Africa? Or do business with the scum-princes of Saudi (oh. wait. we do) or accept that 'extraodinary rendition' is acceptable? Or child abuse is the business of the parent and not of the state?
We have no right!? Nonsense! On the contrary I say we have a DUTY to interfere! Where suffering is inflicted upon the weak, we MUST take action. Put your mothers, wives and daughters in the place of this poor woman and then see if it's still funny, tittilating or irrelevant to your own lives.
That evil may triumph only requires that good men do nothing.
I hand a FAIL tag out to everyone who reduces these issues to acinine comments, comedy or self-centered utilitarian philosophy. Next time, think before you spout NIMBY/Daily Fail nonsense.
We never learn...
It's well past the point where any civilised person should be excusing the excesses of Islam with claims of cultural and religious privilege. It's barbarity - no more, no less.
But that said, Islam practices little more than most religions inflict where countries aren't at least partially secularised. I shudder to think what state the UK would be in if our more fundamentalist god-botherers got their way. Look at Israel - halfway to Fourth Reich status courtesy of religious self-righteousness - and half the world on fire because of them. The other half because of American Christian fundamentalists and their grip on the White House.
The problem is of course that eternal cancer of the human race - organised religion. Responsible for half the woes of mankind since the dawn of time. But we just never EVER seem to learn.
Breaks the skin
Just incase anyone is in doubt, the cane used is designed to break the skin and leave long-lasting scarring. Its not just a "spanking" as some here have described it as.
This punishment is inhumane, regardless of wether the law she broke was just or not. And it was not a just law - most countries ban various substances (the UK bans various drugs), but this law was discrimatory in that it only applied to women, which makes it unjust.
Violent punishments simply keep a country in fear, rather than safe.
"In their religous faith it is a sin to consume alcohol. Chrisitanity has its own crazy practices and you have no right to judge anyone elses."
I'd like to draw attention to this statement not as a means to berate the original poster, but to point out why I disagree with it. I belive I have the right to judge anyones religious faith and practices. Especially when they are counter to what humanity as a whole would consider acceptable. Few people here (I'd hope) would agree disciminating someone on their race would be acceptable. She may have broken a law and she clearly knew that (who supplyed the beer and why are they not being punished?), but it's also possible that she doesn't care about the religion (or at least only cares on a casual basis. How many people who would call themselves Christian actaully follow the Bible rather than just taking the bits that suit them) her state lives under, yet she is being punished for the ideaology of others who disagree with her personal choice and freedom to choose.
It's simple to say she broke a law and we may not like it, but it's their law and we should respect it. I disagree. Anything that curtails the personal freedoms of an individual is not deserving of respect. Tradition and beliefs are not an excuse when put next to the development of a civialisation as a whole. I respect your rights to belive what you want, but that doesn't mean you have the right to practice it if it is completey outmoded. Why should i respect the beliefs of someone when then are contray to what any intelligent sentient being would consider acceptable.
"Why do we bother with countries like this?"
What does that mean? Are you illiterate? Why do we bother? Bother what? You seem to be implying that we're somehow supporting them.
Question: upon committing a minor infringement of the law would you rather spend the next 6 months dragging your way slowly through our legal system and then spend the rest of your life on some Big Brother database or get an immediate 6 strokes and let go?
Btw, I hope none of the commentards using words like "barbarous" above come from a country that condones torture or any form of capital punishment.
That's religion for you...
If it was the Taliban she'd probably face the death penalty.
Dawkins for President of Earth!
@ AC 11:31
The trouble with boycotting countries for having corporal punishment is that logically you'd then have to also boycott countries which have the far more serious human rights problem of capital punishment, which means you'd have to boycott China, Japan and the USA, which would be rather difficult in practice.
Suggest you concentrate on getting your own house in order instead. There is no country in the world which couldn't be improved from a human rights perspective.
BAM! Godwin's law strikes again.
So, Steve, you're saying that YOUR moral framework is the correct one, and that if others don't adhere to it, they should be made to, by force if necessary? Perhaps you're not so unlike those you wish to change.
Ah the dichotomy of Good and Evil. I wonder how many lives have been lost in the name of the Good? Because after all, Steve, nobody fights for Evil.
@We never learn
Opiates are hard to kick.
So much for the "rule of thumb" then. Although I suppose it is worse as a smaller cane can be swung faster and deliver more energy on impact due to the whole velocity squared thing.
That said, this kind of thuggery should end. The police there should take a view of how it works here. One of the big reasons people don't trust gubbermint is the police doing things wrong and getting a pass for it. When cops can do wrong without consequences, the citizenry doesn't see much reason why they shouldn't also. When it escalates to using fear and intimidation through video surveillance, you know the police have lost everything resembling goodwill with the public.
Finally, in the interest of bridging this social injustice, I hereby open my home to all female models, Malaysian or not. Come one, come all, come multiple times if you like. That's right ladies, there are plenty of rooms, no need to shove. Yes, just like a bridge, no canes, no morals, just weight limits.
I'd like to say that it didn't do me any harm...
...but actually I couldn't walk properly for a week and a half.
@Anonymous Coward Posted Thursday 20th August 2009
On the news this morning I heard woman aren't allowed to leave the house in the evening in Afghanistan. wtf? The supposed civilised West should grow a pair, call out these backwards countries, and not tolerate/cooperate with them until they promise not to be a bunch of violent sexists stuck in the dark ages.
Would somebody enlighten this ignorant twat about the Taliban and why we are there.
If you can read, try something like "The Kite Flyer" a "good" little intro...if you can't rent the DVD.
PS The "Enlightened" US didn't allow Black people on the same bus or go to the same schools as whites until 50 years ago, South Africa even less, so maybe the "wonderful" west isn't all it's cracked up to it's be.
I think you misunderstand me. I have no objection to the people, state or culture of Malaysia. I do however object to bullies with sticks beating women. I call that behaviour primitive.
For those of you who seem to think that knowing the punishment for a certain behaviour is tantamount to having no right to object when you commit the 'crime' I suggest you look at some of the research into the psychology of those who abuse their children; often they set abitrary rules with extreme consequences as punishments; "If you touch anything blue today, I will beat you."
This punishment, delivered by a bully is an example of institutionalised abuse codifed and excused by religion, and that, will always be the behaviour of a primitive mind.
And, by the way, I never read the Daily Mail.
Re: "Why do we bother with countries like this?"
>>Btw, I hope none of the commentards using words like "barbarous" above come from a country that condones torture or any form of capital punishment.
Fair point on the 'why do we bother' issue, but I would think that any commenters condemning barbarity in other countries would also condemn it in their own if it occurs there. It's hardly their fault. You can't really suggest it makes them hypocrites. I don't endorse a lot of my own country's policies, do you?
@We never learn...By John 186 et al. similar
"The problem is of course that eternal cancer of the human race - organised religion. Responsible for half the woes of mankind since the dawn of time. But we just never EVER seem to learn."
What people's reaction would be if she were caught taking Heroin? If it is illegal to drink beer (which is a mind-altering substance, to a degree) then it's not much of a leap to Heroin.
Ok, it is really, but that would infringe upon the point I'm making.
My point? Oh, I've forgotten. Pass me a cold one.
I've been to Malaysia a couple of times actually - very interesting place. Every bloke (and most women, but obviously they weren't Muslim) I met seemed to spend most of the day and night drinking. So it's a bit off with "one law for them and another for us", but that's what you get with Sharia.
Retorting that other countries do dreadful things too with a 'let that be an end to it' tone is a completely bullshit non-argument. There isn't some list of 100 appalling practices off the end of which this particular incident falls. Nor does the fact that 'everyone does it' make it OK.
I think you'll find
that women who enjoy a thrashing (of whom there are many) will just drink more beer on the beach in Malaysia. How's that going to help Malaysia develop an orderly sexually segregated beach-beer-drinking society?
*bow* quite right, and well played...
...but I am left with the issue that someone somewhere is suffering because of the vicarious whims of another. How then can I justify my inaction? Because it's not happening to me or mine? Because it's on the other side of the planet? How close to home does it have to be before we take action? It's this desire for a peaceful life at all costs that is leading is to sleepwalk into barbarism, isn't it?
Surely, to accept that we cannot interfere with the morality of another nation, and thus by extension, the morality of any individual, we become paralysed in the face of those who DO committ such acts, such as these so-called 'religious authorities' who will carry out this terrible act?
Sometimes it has to be right to attack them... ...doesn't it?
for all the "barbaric" and "primitive" posts
so you've never seen the police squared up against a demonstration in britain, with batons out, then?
Just as barbaric, probably far less targeted and completely without any judicial process (or oversight) about who gets hit, with what and how many times or even if they were doing anything actually illegal.
Motes and eyes, anyone?
Remember that Mr Swann is always ready to intervene everywhere in the World where Justice is in danger. As long as he doesn't have to move from his armchair with a comfortable access to The Reg's comments, of course.
I don't remember seeing anyone like him at the demonstrations in Kuala Lumpur on August 1st against the Sedition Law, though. Truth to be told, I didn't see anybody like him at those supporting the same Law, either. Sedition Law that was introduced by the Brits, so if a Democracy did it, it must be a good Law.
That said, unlike those about which we hear often in The Reg, I could take pictures freely before and during those demonstrations (note that I was only a tourist enjoying the action, I had no idea which demonstration was which). I could even take pictures of the police forces getting ready for it. And that's considering I'm 6" tall!
Back to the topic, I do find the punishment rough. Keep in mind that this is a country where being convicted of drug trafficking has an automatic death sentence, as reminded (often) by the newspapers. That some politicians there are indeed trying to prohibit alcohol sale in the Muslim-majority areas. That is has been found that a secular court cannot overrule a decision made by a religious one.
Now, if they follow the same path that a beacon-of-democracy country, that tried alcohol prohibition about 100 year ago, we can conclude that Malaysia will be decadent and prone to obesity in just a few decades, with still quite a few pockets of religious extremists spread around and sometimes elected to government. No wonder their flag looks like the one of the USA, they're obviously followers.
Ah, I wish the world was black & white as seen through Mr Swann glasses. However, its infinite shades of grays, and complicated patterns, particularly in Malaysia and its long history, make it difficult for some to understand before judging.
The thing is Neil, is that it's only illegal according to the RELIGION'S laws, and not the COUNTRY'S laws.
If she was caught taking heroin, fair enough to punish her by sending her to prison (the cane is still inhumane) but if, for example, someone in the US, or England was caught not going to Church on a Sunday (a religious crime, since these two countries are Christian), they wouldn't be punished at all - it's another case of religion ruling the country, and not the country's laws and government. Sharia law sucks major arse, and to all those Muslims who practice it - stop being douches and following an out-dated, cruel, inhumane and sexist penal system...
Sharia law and all those who follow it = FAIL!
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