back to article Key McKinnon extradition ruling due next week

Appeal judges will deliver a ruling next Friday on whether or not extradition proceedings against Gary McKinnon can proceed following his recent diagnosis with Asperger's Syndrome. Lord Justice Stanley Burnton and Mr Justice Wilkie conducted two separate hearings on the case. One sitting reviewed whether former Home Secretary …

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Megaphone

Garys' mother interviewed on Newsnight

See Paxman and some lawyer beat up on Gary's mom and no mention that the extradition treaty is asymmetrical, as in no US citizen could be extradited in the reverse direction.

And Paxo never picks up on her statement that Garys' 'confession' was extracted without a lawyer present ...

http://212.58.226.17/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8150981.stm

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Silver badge

Will the judges also consider...

...the current row over Wikimedia and the National Gallery, where again laws differ between the UK and the US? After all, if the US refuses to extradite one American for a violation of UK laws committed outside the UK, then perhaps it's not proper for them to permit extradition of a Brit for a violation of US laws committed outside the US.

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Paris Hilton

legal circus lurches towards climax

At least you had the courtesy to not say legal circus spurts towards climax

Just because.....

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Anonymous Coward

Jurisdiction shopping

You understand here guys, that if you extradite him 2 things will happen.

1. UK prosecutors will conspire with their foreign counterparts to go jurisdiction shopping. If he committed a crime here, then the prosecutors should be prosecuting here.

2. You're accepting that the US can lie about the damages, that those can be HIGH enough to jump the high hurdle to extradite, yet low enough not to be worth prosecuting in the UK. In effect you're saying the damages hurdle doesn't need to be met, it's enough to *say* it's met even when its clear that it was not.

The sensible thing is to just accept that Blair was a President follower. He followed Clinton when Clinton was in power, he followed Bush we Bush came to power. We have a one sided extradition treaty where UK->US has no judicial check on the evidence, but US->UK there is. Yet they have to give him his judicial check, it's his right. Blair be damned.

Put the judicial check back in. Don't rely on people like Jacqui Smith to protect his rights. Remember Jacqui Smith did lots of things that defy logic. The 'innocent people have the same future offending rate as hardened criminals because for a few years the offending rates were similar to petty offenders after massaging the numbers'..... right.... that defies logic, in effect your claiming there are no hardened criminals, and innocent people/hardened criminals, same thing.

She was a moron.

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Silver badge

What did you expect?

It's the BBC! He's not a minority, not female, not obviously disabled, not working class, not a new media wanker, not a pointless eco power source; so as far as the Beeb is concerned, he's as guilty as hell.

But as for the treaty being asymmetric - is that still true? I thought the USA ratified their side years ago. Then again, what the treaty says and what US courts think is not necessarily the same thing.

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Anonymous Coward

Paxman

No surprise, Paxman has become a self-important preening twat in recent years.

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> lurches towards climax?

Frankly I doubt it. Its like bl***y SCO - always something new to delay the inevitable even longer and make lawyers even richer...

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FAIL

Labour MPs - pah!

Shame on them for backing down and letting themselves be told what to vote. They could have helped this guy and instead they lost their nerve or else were bought off. How well do these people sleep?

FAIL icon for everyone who traded in their principles last week,

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Silver badge

Mayday, mayday, mayday ... Virtually Guaranteed Mayhem?

Can the Establishment, with its jumped up Self Serving Perverse Authorities, afford to incur the Displeasure of the Alternate Community which has Random Control of, and/or Controls in, Computerised Systems? A little Bug here and a line of Code there, can create Havoc in Markets which can Collapse Economies.

And you know what they say, ...... The bigger they are, the harder they fall ...... and that is from the horse's mouth ...... "All computers which are connected to the internet are susceptible to infiltration and remote control. Computers which operate on a closed network may also be compromised by various hacker methods, such as privilege escalation, roaming notebooks, wireless access points, embedded exploits in software and hardware, and maintenance entry points." ..... from the Executive Summary of "Hacking Nuclear Command and Control" by Jason Fritz BS (St. Cloud), MIR (Bond)

And aint that the truth.

And if the Law is an Ass, it deserves everything IT can deliver most surely. You have Banks and Bankers misappropriating/losing/pocketing millions/billions/trillions and being rewarded with the same again, which appears again to be misappropriated/lost/pocketed, and the System and Establishment does Nothing Meaningful/Radical/Fundamental. Wake Up, you dozy *******/*****, you are being Right Royally Shafted, are you not? [And thank you, Mr J. Clarkson, for the florid, earthy descriptive]

Make your Displeasure Beta Known....... so that there can be no Doubting the Controlling Powers of People in Control of Computers and Communications.

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Anonymous Coward

Can do the time, dont do the crime...

Ohhh poor boy, he broke the law, he knows he's guilty and he even will sign a confession in the UK. Now, some new lawyer said this guy is "weird and smart", ahh that's a mild form of autsim. In other words, he's a geek that still lives at home! Ship him over here and lets be done with it.... Bleeding heart liberals. For a minute I thought I was on a French website..

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Anonymous Coward

Bloody yanks

I'm pretty sure that after all of these appeals, etc absolutely nothing will change, he will be sent over to the US as if nothing had happened.

No doubt he will be found guilty and sentenced to something insane like forty years in a shit hole American prison. With a bit of luck this will happen before the general election and it will backfire in the Governments face in a spectacular manner.

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@The BigYin

"But as for the treaty being asymmetric - is that still true? I thought the USA ratified their side years ago. Then again, what the treaty says and what US courts think is not necessarily the same thing."

Without bothering to check. I don't believe it was ratified. Even if it was, it doesn't matter - it is clearly unconstitutional, and the courts will strike it down. It will thus remain an asymmetrical treaty until such time as the U.K. realizes that they've been had.

-d

P.S. I for one don't want McKinnon sent over here. He's small fry, and this whole circus is a waste of time and money. You guys deal with him - or not - as you see fit.

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Re: Can do the time, dont do the crime...

AC,

In the Virtual World[s] of CyberSpace is Law and ITs Subjective Selfish National and/or International Use, an Abuse and an Affront to Emerging Greater Intelligence, which may be/is other than Human.?!

"Ship him over here and lets be done with it.... Bleeding heart liberals." ..... Please try to think better and deeper and wider so that one cannot conclude an ignorant bullying weakness exists, which is Always in All Ways Exploitable/Exploited in Order 42 Educate and Entertain a Retarded and Moribund Executive Administrative System/Bankrupt Program.

The Future Paradigm is Change you can Believe in, is IT not ....... and IT's EduTainment for Contentment Containment and Communication aka Better Beta Content and Human Resources MicroMacroManManagement......... with CyberIntelAIgent Designs.

Failure to Adapt and Adopt Change in what is in Actual Reality, a QuITe SurReal and Advanced IntelAIgent Virtual Reality, with Intelligences Programming Artificial IDEntities for Continuity Supply of Future Creative CyberIntelAIgent Propagation ..... Virtual Growth ...... will Always, in All Ways, Result in Colony Collapse.

Fortunately, the Opportunities to Prevent such a Self Inflicted Catastrophe are Offered in a Infinite Stream of New Possibilities, which in the Past would have been Considered Impossible for the Future, making IT even More Remarkable when Such is Offered and Shared in the Present.

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Quid pro quo

"Ship him over here and lets be done with it..."

Assuming you're a stranger to irony and actually mean that, I wonder why you're so brave you have to remain anonymous? Send us the 'friendly fire' airmen we requested attend as witnesses during the enquiry into our soldiers' deaths and your argument might have some merit...

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Anonymous Coward

extradition law

One of the key issues here is the uni lateral nature we have in our extradition agreement with the USA. As is typical with NuLabour, we allow ourselves to be bullied by the Yanks to accepting something isn't fair or just, and out of a rather pathetic attempt to be seen to wanting to please them, "we are your friends Mr USA, we'll do anything you want".

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Alien

Don't waste everyone's time, doing elaborate crimes..... ?

AC, [over there] Put this in your pipe and smoke it ......and do you know any Real Good Dealers for we're all a wee bit fed up with the Paste Gems being Peddled from over there. You can certainly do with the Alien help ...... or do you imagine IT's Bugged and a Trojan rather than Virtual Medicine ... AIVXXXXine.

AI and the Parallel Processing of Novel Information for Virtual Reality Scenarios and Live Operational Virtual Environments.

And I Trust in Global Operating Devices [GODs] that IT Presents a Transparent Quandary in a Stealthy Dilemma for Opportunity in Stalled Economies and Bankrupt Enterprises, for the Pensive Post which is both Real and AI Virtually HeroIQ Play in Great Game Theory can hardly be Ignored with Impunity and Immunity from Infection and Coded Injection of New Ideas and Processes, even if IT is a Pig of a Program with No Problem or Difficulty with an Overarching Underground View for Future Perfect Present See Scapes .... which would also be NEUKlearer HyperRadioProActive C#Scape Vistas in D Language and one of its Alien Derivatives, PerlyGatesPython? And such is the Vibrancy and Innovative Vitality in the Expanding Binary Field that one can always expect Particular and Peculiar Dialects/Steganographic Speech which can be easily Transcribed/Translated into National Tongues for International/Universal/InterNetional Understanding ....... and IT is not a Problem which is going away, you know, for the Pork Pie and Snake Oil Salesperson into the Pathetic and Apathetic Losers' Art of Spin with Deceit making a Mockery of Sincerity.

And by their Actions and Reactions, shall you know them. :-)

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WTF?

@ The BigYin

He's not working class? Yes he is, actually!

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Extradite the fuc*king bastard.

Er, I meant ex-president Bush to the UK for war crimes. For the British squaddies killed in a war built on lies. 'Top' Blair while we're at it. Summer's always good for a hanging.

No? Oh, I forgot - one-sided treaty. Maybe Dubya has im(m|p)unity. Natch.

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Flame

@AC 14:18

Have you no sympathy, empathy, even? Us geeks have a common flaw. We are all sensitive peeps, we want to know what is happening outside our own sphere of influence. We all have curiousity beyond the general population. Just because he went cleverer beyond the big US computers protection shouldn't make him a criminal, even if he was serialy doing it, he just has a persistent quality like we all need to work in this goddamed profession.

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Re: Can do the time, dont do the crime...

I can only assume you know nothing whatsoever about this case to make such an uninformed comment.

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FAIL

As explained to me....

Probably the biggest anti-Bush, anti-Yank, anti-just-about-anything-US person I know (hi Candy!) was chatting about this to me the other day. Despite her disapproval of anything American, she did eloquently explain that the extradition agreement could never be equal as there are differences in the levels of rights between the UK and the US. As she explained it, us Brits do not have any rights that might prevent Brooon and co honouring an extradition request from a country we have signed an extradition agreement with and limited legal process to block such an action, whereas the US does have legal safeguards that prevent the US administration just shipping off any citizen at the request of a foreign country. Even a thickee like the Obumbler is not going to commit political suicide and change that.... Oh, hold on a sec, he does spend a lot of time running around rewriting World history and claiming the US is to blame for everything....

As for McKinnon, in my opinion he was simpy stupid rather than destructive, but once the legal ball had got rolling he made things only worse for himself by not co-operating. After all the expense and trouble he has caused the US administration, it will be very hard for them to offer him the slap on the wrist he would probably have got if he had co-operated in the first place. Now he has allowed a bunch of celebutards to turn this into a big news item there is no way the US government can do anything other than throw not just the book but the whole bookshelf at him. Making desperate shyster lawyer plays like claiming autism is not going to win any sympathy when he has already said he will admit guilt if he is tried in the UK.

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Silver badge

Paleface speak with forked tongue, Kemo Sabe

"After all the expense and trouble he has caused the US administration, it will be very hard for them to offer him the slap on the wrist he would probably have got if he had co-operated in the first place.".... By Matt Bryant Posted Monday 27th July 2009 09:52 GMT

Matt, that is the most pathetic and flawed and perverse of arguments whenever you consider the losses/expenses incurred by the US Administration over this last year........ and the crooks in suits are still hanging on to the tiller to save their sorry boney asses. But their System is exposed and easily hacked and cracked open, now that it has been exposed as a Global Fraud based upon, in their case, the MisManagement of Perception.

And they just aint smart enough to fix it with IT Protecting them from the Truth of their Scams. And thus will they quite naturally All fall foul of their own misdemeanours.

Although, of course, there are those who will be Smart enough to break ranks and be looking to save their necks and will be Venturing Capital into a New Paradigm which will save them .... and protect them .... and hail them as visionaries.

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Flame

<rant> USA are severely embarrassed...

...and they want revenge. They have a truckload of MIT graduates working on security and yet some kid (reminiscent of WarGames) - a foreign kid no less!! - breaks into the whole thing. So the Septics would have stopped at nothing to get him. A leading prosecutor there has already stated on US TV that he wanted the hacker back to "..see him fry." Fortunately it wouldnt be capital punishment but the sentiment is clear.

Then there are the rights of us Britons. We dont have any. Yup. Sorry mate but its true. I have letters from Jacqui Smith, Douglas Alexander (when foreign secretary) and Lord West of Spithead that clearly state we have no rights when it comes to a foreign power demanding our presence! The case might be years old, you might not even have been in the country when the alleged crime took place, you may never have been to that country.....all irrelevant. If a foreign power e.g. Spain, USA wants you then you are nabbed! The EU warrant is particularly malicious. Originally conceived to combat Terrorism but it has been used for fraud, car crimes, insurance scams etc. etc. And you have no defence against it. If one is issued then Special Branch pop round and drag you off. When they do come, make sure you are not carrying a rucksack and doing any kind of jumping/hurdling.

Baroness Sarah Ludford said she didnt want to vote to pass the EU Arrest Warrant through as she knew it would be mis-used. She got railroaded like the others by higher powers.

We got sold out by Bliar, i mean Blair, then re-sold out by Jacqui "I-want-my-marble-sink-for £500-for-my-second-home-as-i-am-doing-it-up-and-want-to-make-a-big-fat-profit-and-i-want-it on-expenses" Smith.

Amusingly, immigrants are still coming here because they want that all-powerful British passport. Sorry mate, its worth beans now. It mean nuffink. Get an American one. They never extradite their own.

Ok, he did break a law somewhere. Not sure if the law was broken here or over there. And not sure if after 7 years the case shouldnt be dropped. It would just be nice to see the British system looking after one of its own.....and cartoon birds will do my hair in the morning....

</rant>

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Boffin

To Be Yet Shorter -

"a New Paradigm which will..." -

IT will not.

THANK YOU. BE EASY.

73

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Anonymous Coward

Time to face the music

Gary just might be headed for a vacation at the iron bar hotel in the U.S. Serves him right.

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