A Chinese engineer committed suicide after he was allegedly roughed-up by company security services when one of the iPhone 4G prototypes entrusted into his care went missing. Twenty-five-year-old Sun Danyong, a recent engineering graduate, was employed by Foxconn, manufacturer of Apple's iPhone and iPods. According to reports …
No phone is worth a life.
Foxconn doing the iPhone? lets hope it's not like thier mobo's.....shite to put it lightly :-)
Probably the iTouch Pro. They just had to say iPhone 4G to keep it a secret.
Fail on who's part?
Good security secures whatever without overly restricting best practices. Bad security blames people for the system they have to work with.
If the young man lost a phone, it might have been at work. What part did the system play in that?
It makes you think
What /would/ they have done if he lost the phone?
Death (even self -inflicted) does not fit the crime.
Any ideas for punishment that would fit the crime. Sadly not for this one as a young human life was taken.
Devil Steve Jobs for obvious reasons.
Suicide or not?
Did he fall or was he pushed?
Are we sure
Are we sure he jumped because of loosing the phone, and not in shame over having touched it?
In other news....
Steve Jobs just returned from a business trip to China.
This finalizes 2 things for me...
1. Dont buy Apple products.
2. Dont buy Foxconn's products.
End of story!
I dont believe Apple for a second when they say "We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect." Otherwise the headline would've read something like:
Apple terminates business business dealing with Foxconn after security forces beat an engineer , who later committed suicide, over lost prototype!
Anything less than that tells me that the only thing Apple values is their bottom line, something i will never contribute to, nor ever have...
Its a sad day in this industry, because technology is replaceable, human lives are not...
... once found a Windows Mobile phone, and almost killed myself.
Lessons to be learned
No phone is worth a life. Condolences etc.
On the other hand, those responsible for the loss of the personal details of millions of UK taxpayers on multiple occasions don't seem to think they need to be held accountable.
Somewhere in between those two...
I hate security/bouncers. The people that become them are short tempered wankers.
Yeah...like the Vendor is going to admin on beating one of their employees to the world + dog. I wonder what the all american Apple Inc will do if they find out that the bbeating actually took place. Will they revert their contract ? will they compensate the family ?
Sad but not surprising
With the levels of competition in the industry and with the attitude to business in China, its not surprising that the production of the iPhone really does make or break lives. Its like stock brokers leaping from windows after losing millions.
All the same, a sad state of affairs.
... just wrong, no matter whether he was pushed or jumped. Poor young fellow. Let's hope there really is a thorough investigation. Let's hope he did not have a family depending on him.
Not loosing, LOSING
That is all
Now thats what you call a Fanboi
I'm sure like him us other dedicated Apple fanbois would like nothing better than the grave if we broke or lost our Apple product.
Over at Daily Tech forums the Americans are getting hot and bothered over 1. Apple 2. Foreign workers 3. The young guy was a coward to commit suicide ... the final bit I just cannot get my head around, I can understand the US guys talking sh!te because thats what they are good at, but to completely lack any understanding of what the Chinese lad was going through to bring himself to commit suicide out of a window ...
Then I come to read these message boards and its full of sympathy and regret and good feeling.
Americans are a sad breed.
"Security cameras in Sun's apartment building taped him leaping from an open window"
Y'know, if my apartment building had cameras pointed at every window, I'd start to feel a little suicidal myself... At least they put in a 'building' qualifier: my first thought was that Foxconn had this guy wired right down to his underwear drawer.
Still, a tragedy - just how much is a bloody phone worth, anyway? (Although that leaves aside the price the fanbois and counterfeit merchants would pay for a early prototype...)
I think it was the invasive apartment search, the beating and the intimidation that caused him to jump... yeah sure I was tempted to mock him when I saw the title, but the story seems to be more about the bullshit corporates in China subject their employees to, rather than freakish fanboism.
"We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect."
Uhuh, that's why you pick a country well known for it's mistreatment of workers and people in general to get your cheap labour.
Reminds me ...
Of the scene in The Man Who Fell To Earth where the hired heavies hurl the accountant (and his b/f) through a plate glass window. He initially bounces off, they apologise and try again, successfully.
Jump, my foot. He probably got the same.
This is why you shouldn't install windows.
Taking the job seriously
Pity the MOD cannot take the same action for the missing Bowmans
Obviously the job is worth more than the hardware.
Did you forget to switch your brain on before writing your post? Or have you conveniently forgotten all the other companies Foxconn is *contracted* to make products for?
Apple—and any other company who works with Foxconn—is limited to reacting to events, not micromanaging a company they do not own and therefore have zero control over.
Dropping Foxconn and transferring all production to another (Chinese or Taiwanese) corporation isn't exactly something you can do overnight. Retooling a factory to build iPhones isn't something you can do in an afternoon. And most factories like these are fully booked for months in advance.
Yet you suggest dropping a major subcontractor over an *ALLEGED* beating which has NOT been proven in any way as yet? Just because a source makes an allegation, it doesn't mean it's true. Unless you are the kind of idiot who thinks that anything that's displayed in a web browser must be true.
Seconded. Though I generally dislike apple products and buy better, cheaper alternatives... and foxconn have generally made me believe nothing more than that their hardware is ****.
It is a sad situation to have encountered though. Losing poor quality hardware should not be something someone has to die over.
A sad indictment.
Yet again we see the sociopathic methods of the multi-nationals. Maintaining the secrecy of a new phone is more important than treating employees with even a modicum of respect? A crappy electronic device encased in plastic. Where's their sense of proportion?
Foxconn deny the beating and Apple assume the moral high-ground. They know nobody believes them, but they don't give a stuff.
Jumped, or was he pushed???
My money is on the latter. I think a security thug decided to send a message to the other slaves at Foxconn.
The beatings will continue until the morale improves! - Foxconn management.
I was looking for a Mao or Joe Stalin icon.
There is no such thing as an iTouch, and never has been.... so an iTouch Pro seems somewhat unlikely. An iPod Touch Pro on the other is possible... i guess, but surely that already exists, and is called an iPhone.
Apple PR at Risk
Foxconn is at the very best inept and at worst murderous in dealing with the alleged loss of the prototype by Sun Danyong. Apple should terminate (sorry for the unintentional pun) the agreement and deal with a competitor that won't handle affairs in a manner that kills employees. Part of my job is to recommend hardware. Apple's response makes me a little less likely to select an Apple product.
Known poor work environment. Free trade.
Mao or Joe Stalin icon
Fatman is right. This site needs both a Mao and a Stalin icon. It completes the group with Cheney.
Hope they switch to Quanta
The rumours are Apple is progressively switching away from Foxconn to other suppliers, such as Quanta. This can't come soon enough.
Foxconn are pretty good technically and they build (and sometimes design) a lot of stuff for multiple well known customers - not just Apple, but also Dell and several high profile others. Some stuff of mine has been built at the Shenzen facility and their quality is good, they are highly competent. Not shite at all.
As for this poor man's death, I suspect it's a combination of extreme pressure because of the high profile product, local values of responsibility and honour, and maybe pressures due to the totalitarian regime in mainland China. What a terrible shame.
How did foxconn react?
I can't really see why someone would kill themselves solely over a lost phone.
However I can envisage a scenario where he was told that loosing the prototype meant he is loosing his job and that they'll do their best to ensure he never works again... that could push someone over the edge.
A glimpse of the underbelly...
Lit in the cold LED light of an ipod.
This is yet another reason for me to avoid apple products. As others have said, if they had any ethics, they would be more proactive than "while it is sad that this lttle Chinese peon died, there are still a billion more of them".
.... No Apple product is worth a life.
>By Paul Crawford Posted Tuesday 21st July 2009 20:04 GMT
> No phone is worth a life
Culture+Youth+Intense Secret Requirements=Tragedy
Didn't this supposedly happen at a trade show ? Maybe I'm confusing this with another lost prototype.
Very unfortunate incident and tragic for the engineer and his family. With Apples over the top fetish for secrecy - they were no doubt leaning pretty hard on FoxConn. Possible future "contract issues" and Apple may have even had a secrecy breach statement in their contract(s) with FoxConn.
As a HW developer for Intel in the past I've done a lot of business with Taiwan/Chinese manufacturers and pride for ones position - company - professional life is a big deal. So no doubt from top management on down this was a big deal at FoxConn. As noted he was a young engineer which may have contributed to his brash choice - but FoxConn clearly over reacted and over stepped their bounds.
Maybe he got sloppy or careless (being so young) and the phone was stolen ... or being so small its sitting in the bottom of some desk or was tossed out with the trash.
Also noted in the article was that Apple has contracted with companies not paying employees properly. This would not happen in Europe or the US - but as long as the masses won't pay $10 - $30 for some tech trinket we'll all have to live with some collateral damage.
The Real Problem
Beating a scapegoat instead of trying to find the real culprit; this is hardly surprising. Look at the mess in Sinkiang, where a false rumor about a rape caused innocent men to be beaten at a toy factory; then the police brutally suppress a peaceful demonstration - releasing the pent-up rage of years of oppression, leading to innocent Chinese people being killed. Or the "black prisons" where local officials deal with people who come to Beijing to seek redress against them.
We really shouldn't be dealing with dictatorships. It's that simple.
A life for a phone
Although it is still not yet officially ascertained, Mr Sun Danyong may well have been "roughed up" by his company security services: such organizations are not reputed for employing subtle people!
And these days, a man's life is of little value, anyway!
A very sad affair, however detrimental the loss of a new hi-tech phone may have been to the company.
You may not be able to see why someone jumped because of a phone, but it's not unusual in China where train despatchers have been known to jump if they send a train off even a few seconds late.
Apologies to sensitive people
It's a sad case and all, I just hope he didn't remember where he left it on the way down.
I assume Apple will be carrying out their OWN investigation, not just waiting for Foxconn's to take place?
There is a very serious accusation that a supplier is beating its employees in China. Not a bad reason to just DROP the supplier, surely?!
The dead guy could have been involved in industrial espionage? He may have been coerced of course, or it could be about the money. I would imagine certain quarters would be quite prepared to go to extreme lengths to acquire an early prototype of an as yet unreleased version of what is an incredibly lucrative product.
He may well have been caught between a rock and a hard place so to speak.
On the BBC write up of this it adds that Foxconn has suspended its chief of security. That doesnt sound like the sort of thing one does if the beatings were a fabricated allegation (or even if they were just believed to be a fabrication).
£10 says they hang the chief of security out to dry, promote his deputy and nothing will change...
@Sean Timarco Baggaley
Perhaps Apple should have been prepared to retool an alternate supplier after the last time they had to whitewash Foxconn - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/19/mother_jones_goes_to_china/ - over the way that they were treating their staff. I'm pretty sure that I remember something like "We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect." then as well. Face it, Apple could get practically any supplier in the world to make their damn phone. They choose to have it made by a company with a documented history of working practices that are shoddy, bordering on evil, that just HAPPENS to be headquartered in a totalitarian regime where they still execute people after show trials. I'm sure there will be a "thorough investigation" by Apple (send some HR and PR bunnies over, have them asssured that everything's wonderful come home and then troto out another bunch of mealy-mouthed platitudes about dignity and respect. Rinse and repeat.).
@AC 22:39 GMT
This is why you shouldn't install windows.
how the hell does that make any sense in relation to this article ??
i smells a fanboi who needs to bash windows and just failed
Don't blame Apple
Apple are simply meeting the demands of consumers.
How many of us even consider the ethical behaviour of the electronic products we buy ?
I'm a weedy old liberal - and I don't to be honest. This sort of thing is a direct consequence of our demand for cheap gadgets and whizzy toys.
This poor bugger will be completely forgotten about when the new iphone launches.
sad about his death
Its a shame he felt he had to do this, corporate pressure over there is presumably a bitch and it did occur to me that he may have been assisted in his desicion to leave in such a unconventional manner, but thats probably because i have watched to many spy movies.
I love all the people on here who spout about never recommending buying apple/whoever products again to there massive conglomerate buying syndicate blah blah blah. I have a iPhone finally after many years of not giving a frog, i like it !, i also still like my old windows mobile phone, there phones, i make phone calls on them !, they both freeze occasionaly on non phoney functions i reset them and get on with my life.
The iphone has its good/bad points, so does my windows mobile phone.
My experience of recommending products based on personal predjudice is that the people paying the bills will go for the cheapest not on the political/cultural views of the manufacturer, a enlightened Director may sometimes indicate his preference not to deal with a certain supplier if they have been twats in the past but bottom line is generally been more important. I have never been asked if supplier A sources equipment in china etc or employs children at gunpoint.
Generally i have a laugh on here about some of the childish comments "They will never get my business again etc since they use supplier x ", yawn, everything is subcontracted all over, sourced everywhere, assembled everywhere else, shipped via godknows who by whichever dodgy company owned by whichever terrorist sponsored state. I could starve to death, freeze to death just standing up for the oppressed.
The ONLY people i will NOT buy from is Gypsys/Travellers thats it, i would SELL to them cos there money is as good as anyones and would only have slight qualms about where they got there money but i would still happily spend it.
A few comments
1. Wonder if this was just the hardware device, or whether it had any software loaded on it. Software being the real treasure, not the hardware.
2. We don't really think it was suicide do we, unless he did have a moment of madness and did purposely misplace one of the phones in an attempt to make a quick buck selling it to a competitor.
3. I bet the next guy given the task of taking phones from A to B won't make the same mistake.
Wow, you really have had a sense of humour failure, haven't you? Or are you such a desperate geek that you are unaware that there are non-IT uses for many words.?
Don't install windows because people can jump out of them. Lowest form of wit and all that, but you can't have a proper tragedy without a sick joke or two.
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