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back to article Police deny targeting kids for DNA

Police officers in Camden, north London, are deliberately targeting kids under-18 for arrest just so their DNA samples can be taken. The Met denies any such action has taken place, but an anonymous police officer told The Ham and High: "It is part of a long term crime prevention strategy. We are often told that we have just one …

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Ash
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Anonymous?

Chicken.

Put your neck on the line and stand up and be counted, or shut up like the rest of the sheeple. "Somebody said someone is doing something wrong!" means nothing unless the source is identified, and the evidence is credible.

As a police officer this asshat should know that.

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Unhappy

Megacity 1

How long before the UK is renamed Megacity 1, the police renamed "Judges", and DNA sampled at birth?

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I'm waiting for the retraction

It should only be a few days coming.

The police will then admit that they have been arresting people just to get their DNA. It was the person's fault for being arrested. The police did nothing wrong. In fact they arrested people to help them. And they'll do it again in the future.

One wonders how many of these arrests can be termed "false", in which case there should be criminal trials for the arresting officers.

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Linux

That'll be function creep then

The functions of creeps....

Nu Labia ...all your data belong to us...papers citizen!

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Backdoor politics

This is how this govt operates, it pushes everything through the back door (and I know the conotations of this sentence... it still applies which ever way you take it... and theres another pun in that too lol)

Anyway, the police will not admit it, but the more people they arrest, the more DNA on record, the easier for them in future. As you cannot object, or else they will force you, there is not much which can be done except try to get the rules changed. Untill they are, this will continue.

Once they have enough DNA on their database, of course, they will just say: "well we have most peoples DNA, so why should we not have yours. everyone is to submit for DNA sampling immediately, or you will be arrested"

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Am I reading that right?

"These proposals will still allow the storing of people's DNA for 12 years or six years for minor offences - that's assuming they are arrested but not charged."

So they've only been arrested, not charged, yet there's still a difference in the time the DNA is kept for depending on the severity of the crime you didn't commit? If that isn't "guilty until proven innocent," what is?

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And the obvious result

There will presumably be more and more individual plods whinging and whining about 'the public doesn't trust us'. All we did was arrest, terrify and traumatise a totally innocent child, and now years later that grown adult doesn't trust the police.

Beatings will continue until morale improves.

Oh, and there's the little detail about: For the rest of your life you will have major problems, expense and delay if you ever want to visit the US, because you have an arrest record.

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Black Helicopters

Re:Am I reading that right?

Oh yes, you are reading that right.

In the UK you are innocent until proven guilty, but some are more innocent than others.

Two homes good (particularly if one is on expenses), one home bad.

And Gordon will shortly be changing his name to Napoleon.

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RW
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"Police deny..."

They're lying.

What NuLabour's thugs in blue forget is that government is by consent of the governed, and don't you forget it.

They may think they've got the upper hand, but even the GDR eventually fell apart.

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Wordless

<weeps>

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Flame

FFS

It's not just parliament (yes with a small 'p' these days) that should be seeing resignations!

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Happy

The truth is out there

"...if we miss it that might mean a rape or a murder goes unsolved in the future."

If you missed the distinction here: "unsolved" means "we didn't find out who did it, so it doesn't add to our 'cleared' statistics", as opposed to "unconvicted" meaning "we found out who did it but were unable to build a strong enough case to convict the individual(s) and provide the victim some form of justice".

Welcome to the new focus of policing in Britain - statistical targets!

" If you know you have had your DNA taken and it is on a database then you will think twice about committing burglary for a living."

Seriously? DNA testing the scene of a burglary? In Camden? It took me three hours to get the police to attend the scene when my house was burgled in Shepperds Bush, and when they finally turned up, they took a look a the window, saw that there were no prints on it, and said "Without prints there really isn't much we can do. But we'll take the details and see if it is part of a pattern in the area."

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Anonymous Coward

Anyone in the least surprised any more?

I'm retired, from a professional lifetime in education. Years ago you wouldn't have found a more acquiescent pillar of middle-class society. Our police were wonderful - ask anyone - anyone who mattered, at least.

But over the last decade, I've been involved with police on several occasions. Once as a witness, once as a victim and more than once as a target for harassment (having had the temerity to complain). I won't detail here the gross examples of police corruption I've seen, or the influence of the 'Brethren' in police affairs. Suffice to say that - these days - if I found a police officer on fire, I wouldn't piss on him...

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EU ruling

What happened to the EU ruling about this?

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Victims have always been irrelevant

The criminal justice system is,and always has been about arresting and trying people who have offended against the rules of the state not the individual.This is probably a good thing - I for one don't want state-sponsored revenge.

The "victim" (and most "crimes" don't have a victim as such) is only relevant if they witnessed something - otherwise forget it. Where does anyone get the idea that it was ever about restitution?

The tabloid press I suppose.

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Black Helicopters

With the combined efforts...

...of law enforcement, database admins and the general public, we can hope that one bright and sunny day in the foreseeable future we are safe! Safe! Safe at last.

No more rape, no more burglary, no more fear in the eyes of children. For the first time in human history we will be safe.

I for one welcome our happy world, our joyful world, and the overlords that bringeth it to us.

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idiot.

>> If you know you have had your DNA taken and it is on a database then you will think twice about committing burglary for a living."

Yep, I'm sure that is exactly what through the typical smack addicted burglar's head just before putting someone's window in.

Having said that I, I do know one person who had their house broken into and the culprit was found and successfully prosecuted, with the help of DNA evidence. But that was a pretty unusual case as the police treated it fairly seriously, because every single thing in the house was stolen. Usually they wouldn't deem a burglary to be worth the expense of dusting for prints.

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@John

"Our police were wonderful - ask anyone - anyone who mattered, at least."

Haha, best laugh I've had all day.

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Lying Liars

Fibbing Fabricators

Prevaricating Police

Equivocating Evaders

Anybody see the pattern here?

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Unhappy

Now they've changed the rules...

you can be arrested for anything. Unlike in the past when you had to be suspected of a criminal offence (ie one with a custodial sentence).

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Unhappy

Unbeleivable

Does ANYBODY actually think this is OK?

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Black Helicopters

UK really does Sux

Rated "Utterly Terrible" , no reflection on the article, just the contents.

Is it not enough that the EU courts have already told the UK government that they are out of order... It wasn't enough that we were denied a referendum on the EU, but when they make a ruling they STILL choose to ignore it.

Oh well Brown & co. the election results are coming in nicely now. Tell me, will you LOT now LISTEN to the people?!

No, i didn't think so and that is why you lot will be OUT when we, the UK people can force a general election.

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Reducing future crime

"Whilst any DNA samples obtained following arrest can lead to more serious crimes being solved"

WHAT?! So, you are assuming that not ONLY is the little tike a threat to society today, right now, but if they really didn't do anything, they are BOUND to be a threat to society later?!

Is this guy _really_ saying that the innocent people he arrests today are the ones that will commit crimes tomorrow? What does that say for the state of affairs in Blighty? (Or Merika, for that matter?!)

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Anonymous Coward

Scrumping

When I was a kid we went scrumping. (Stealing apples from trees).

Nowadays it would be called theft of property, my DNA would be taken, a record would follow me through life, the details would be long gone, but my school, job, boss, etc would get a report an inch think showing how I'd been monitored since I was a bad kid. No doubt I couldn't be a doctor or work with children since I had a record.

F*cking NuLabour.

I hope it doesn't end with Jaqui leaving office. I hope her and her family eat the shit she's dished up and face a lifetime of stigma and abuse from the system she created.

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Terrorist

"Have we got targets for young people who have not been arrested yet? The answer is yes. But we are not just waiting outside schools to pick them up, we are acting on intelligence. If you know you have had your DNA taken and it is on a database then you will think twice about committing burglary for a living."

Is it just me, or did he just admit that the police are a terrorist organization? The definition of terrorist, according to dictionary.com, is "One who governs by terrorism or intimidation". That last quoted sentence certainly seems to fit that definition.

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Boffin

Conform or else

"If you know you have had your DNA taken and it is on a database then you will think twice about committing burglary for a living."

For those who aren't fluent in oligarchish or its formerly rare but becoming more popular dialect fascistese.

"You shall obey and conform to the rules we have laid and you will not complain. Just remember, we have your DNA and we can find it anywhere."

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Joke

Perhaps...

Alan Johnson will put a stop to these police state antics.

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Anonymous Coward

But the police

Don't investigate burglary (except in some cases of violence) and barely investigate sex crimes such as rape....

Assuming the police are honest and don't fabricate evidence anymore are they saying then that because they have the DNA DB info they'll start being a bit more diligent, as that is the only way having the info on the database will have any deterrent effect. If it is unlikely the crime will be investigated then it is unlikely you will be caught so start burgling boys and girls...

If they are targeting young then it can't be for the reasons offered unless the police are being really disingenuous - or stupid... or both.

Of course it could all be just an exercise in cowing the the more susceptible youths......

And we pay for this....... Mr. Johnson!!! so get it stopped.

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Linux

@Christoph - Not just visas

An arrest won't just cause problems obtaining visas.

Should you wish to enter the caring professions, or any job which demands an enhanced CRB check, an arrest is now counted as part of your 'criminal record' along with any unsubstantiated gossip or malicious accusation the police fancy putting on there.

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Anonymous Coward

What the quote should have said

"It is part of a long term crime prevention strategy. We are often told that we have just one chance to get that policeman in the cross hairs and if we miss it that might mean a civilian murdered by seven bullets to the head on the Tube goes unpunished in the future."

There fixed it for you.

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@ Catkins

Interesting. So if the police are determined to give every single child in their area an arrest record to carry through their lives, and those jobs will reject anyone with an arrest record, they are going to end up desperate for people who are not disqualified.

So the people in jobs caring for vulnerable people will be selected simply as being some of the very very few who are not disqualified. Since the available pool will be so tiny this will have to be the only criterion, regardless of whether they are actually suitable or qualified for the job.

They will probably also be able to demand extortionate pay levels.

What a wonderful way to protect the vulnerable members of society.

And won't the politicians boast about what a great job they are doing.

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Black Helicopters

A thought experiment

As DNA is based on cell samples, the more thoughtful (for lack of a better word) "criminal" would probably think ahead a little. There are two methods for negating, or nullifying DNA collection. One is by not leaving any DNA to collect, and the other is by contaminating the (again, for lack of a better word) "crime" site with others DNA.

It won't be long (possibly) before stealing trash from such places as (e.g.) hairdressers, or clinics becomes commonplace. Think about it for a moment...

>Take a bunch of DNA (human or otherwise) belonging to others, with you on your "CRIME".

>Strew said DNA around, thus making any sort of DNA collection/examination prohibitively expensive, not to mention slow & frustrating for the nazis^H^H^H^H^Hpolice:

>Ensure that you wear generic, throwaway clothes.

>Wear latex gloves (assuming that they don't become a restricted item. If so, find alternatives).

>Gel your hair inside a (generic) hat (with generic gel). Hell, a bit of vaseline(tm) over your exposed skin could be useful.

>Don't repeat the same offenses. If they (the rozzers) are annoyed enough, they could do a statistical analysis on the 100's of DNA samples obtained from the "CRIME SCENE" and possibly try to finger you that way.

... There is a lot to be said for no-name branded clothing ... It's huge dispersal within a population, for one.

All in all, if everybody who took to crime followed these ideas, they would probably be doing the rest the UK (& world... eventually) population a great service.

[posted anonymously & from another country for black helicopter-style reasons]

Remember, they govern by the consent of the governed. If enough people say enough, then it should mean ENOUGH!

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Stop

Hang on

This sort of thing NEVER happens on "The Bill", therefore I don't believe it.

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Linux

@ Christoph

Here's a good example of somone with no criminal convictions losing a job offer because of uncorroborated allegations on his enhanced CRB. Also look at all the comments after the article from unconvicted people whose careers have been totally blighted by allegations (not even charges) against them being counted as a criminal recrod.

http://richardbaum.mycouncillor.org.uk/2009/01/16/crb-check-hearsay-costs-innocent-man-job/

We've moved away from 'innocent unless proven guilty' to 'no smoke without fire', and a situation where we are excluding huge swathes of the population from entire sectors of employment.

Oh, and we now have a police force which happily admits that they are engineering false arrests so they can gather data, and sod the consequences for the innocent person involved.

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Stop

Wacky Jacqui's gone, yet still civil liberties are eroding...

(oops, typo corrected from previous post!!)

And I thought the cops here in Holland were tw4ts for setting up roadblocks everywhere so they could get their quotas or teach new recruits how to write their name on a ticket. But this??!!

I left the yUK 15 years ago - now there's even less chance of me coming back.

(and Camden was one of the very few parts of Lunnun vaguely worth setting foot in......)

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Please sign...

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/policedna/

No chance whatsoever of being accepted, of course - but the weasel words which will be trotted out to "justify" not doing it should be entertaining...

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Alien

"Teenagers are not arrested purely on the basis to obtain DNA samples."

No not 'purely' to get DNA but it's probably the top reason.

Icon: Testing for reptillian bloodlines.

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Re: Please sign...

There's always one.

If you really want anybody to do anything about it flood the police with your "suspicions" about police officers, MPs and Britain's Got Talent judges.

Disclaimer: I've never seen the latter but rather suspect that anybody involved with the show should have had extended CRB checks.

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Alien

If you tolerate this,,,, then your children will be next

Nice.... WAAHHHHHHH...... its a boy....... Book him Dan-O

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