Judge orders Echostar to disable set-top DVR

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Existing subscribers not immediately impacted? #

Posted Wednesday 3rd June 2009 20:04 GMT

I note the use of the word "immediately" there. I wonder if now would be a good time to explore other television avenues?

Anonymous Coward

Not required last time I checked #

Posted Wednesday 3rd June 2009 21:26 GMT

What, now Tivo has a patent on recording streams on the hard drive? Paris, cause she knows streams

Simon Taylor

Tech savvy users will just hack it anyway. #

Posted Wednesday 3rd June 2009 21:26 GMT

The EchoStar box will just be hacked anyway eventually. I don't really know exactly how the TV systems work in the US, but this DVR box sounds very similar to the way Sky+ works in the UK.

What exactly is the patent for that Tivo has anyway? It seems to be the same as every other generic PVR/DVR box - I have a JVC DR-MX1 DVD/VHS/HDD PVR combo for example.

Austin Modine

Re: Not required last time I checked #

Posted Wednesday 3rd June 2009 21:35 GMT

The patent is question is # 6,233,389 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,233,389.PN.&OS=PN)

It describes a system that "allows the user to store selected television broadcast programs while the user is simultaneously watching or reviewing another program."

Michael Habel

So does this mean... #

Posted Wednesday 3rd June 2009 22:36 GMT

That, Linux based Open Source Software: MythTV and V-ideo D-isk R-ecorder (a.k.a. VDR), are also in violation of this Patent? What about Humax?

I suppose that this "Patent" only effects the 'Merikans, but IIRC Humax also does business there as well.

Oh well let's see them try to take down VDR!!

Tux, is in the HTPC and all is well with the World!!

MYOFB

I feel this is a dumb question . . . . #

Posted Wednesday 3rd June 2009 22:36 GMT

. . . . but as I say to anyone who asks . . . . "There's no such thing as a 'dumb question' unless you already know the answer!!".

So my question is . . .

"Is a TiVo PVR/DVR one and the same (or linked/manufactured/marketed/sold) in much the same way as a TVonics PVR/DVR piece of kit?

I only ask because my TVonics box . . .

"allows the user to store selected television broadcast programs while the user is simultaneously watching or reviewing another program."

If they are the same company then ignore my post . . . . otherwise . . . .Echostar may have a point!!

\Coat on before I posted . . . Tin foil hat donned already . . . Just firing up the fusion reactor to deflect/deter all and any "Tosser" responses!!!

Richard Jukes

Erm #

Posted Wednesday 3rd June 2009 22:36 GMT

Correct me if im wrong, but were we not all doing that with PCI TV Cards many many years ago?

Anonymous Coward

Hmmm, I wonder? #

Posted Wednesday 3rd June 2009 22:56 GMT

Ok, I'm not sure of the specifics but I was wondering along line of:

(a) USA patents can cover concepts or ideas

(b) UK patents do not directly cover ideas and are limited to things that are replicable

So, if a product is limited in USA by intellectual patent does it hold in the UK?

vincent himpe

detail #

Posted Wednesday 3rd June 2009 22:56 GMT

it has to do with the fact that a Tivo box can be simultaneously recording and paying back a stream. I can be watching a pre-recorded stream from disk while recording a new stream. Or i can be watching at point x in a stream while the recording is already at point y ( so called timeshifting . let's pause it for a minute and then watch it from where it was halted.)

That is patented. Any box that has such timeshifting capability and record while playing back is subject to this patent. Several companies have licenced this technology. Echostart did not ....

Petrea Mitchell

But wait... #

Posted Thursday 4th June 2009 00:18 GMT

...there's been a stay of execution!

http://tech.yahoo.com/news/nm/20090603/tc_nm/us_tivo_1

Anonymous Coward

Ring Buffers #

Posted Thursday 4th June 2009 09:19 GMT

I remember writing Ring Buffer code while at UNI (late 1980s), I am also confident I did not invent it.

A byte is a byte is a byte, wether vt100 esc codes, file transfer or video stream. Any one who started playing an mpg stream whilst it was still downloading provides prior art (and should sue TiVo).

spegru

@Austin Modine - I wonder #

Posted Thursday 4th June 2009 09:19 GMT

Thanks for posting that link Austin.

Geek mode on:

I had a quick browse and noted immediately that the patent (debateable whether it should have been allowed but anyway) makes several specific references to MPEG encoding.

I just happen to know due to alot of fiddling with these things, that PC based PVRs and Humax PVRs do not store programmes as MPEG but instead use the native over the air format for digital TV, called Transport Stream (TS) format.

End Geek Mode:

I wonder if that is the reason that Humax, Hauppauge et al are still in business? If so then this patent is full of holes.

PS.

Tip of the day: The multi-platform VLC player can convert between multiple media types including TS and MPEG

Micky

Ohhh can I make a claim! #

Posted Thursday 4th June 2009 09:19 GMT

Given that the company that eventually created Tivo started in 1997 and I was using exactly the same functionality in 1995 with two TV cards and "cheap" PC can I have my $200m please....

Citizen Kaned

v+ and sky+ #

Posted Thursday 4th June 2009 09:19 GMT

both these do the same as tivo but the V+ can record 2 things whilst watching another, and timeshifting.

as someone said this tech has been around for years before tivo.... is this just another case of yanks ripping off other people's ideas and patenting them?

James Prior

@ Citizen Kaned #

Posted Thursday 4th June 2009 10:45 GMT

You're right, V+ and Sky+ let you do this, and guess what? They've licenced the technology from TiVo.

A patent doesn't mean another company can't do it - it just means they need to ask permission first and pay a fee.

Hugh McIntyre

@spegru and @Richard Jukes #

Posted Thursday 4th June 2009 22:30 GMT

@spegru:

> ... do not store programmes as MPEG but instead use the native over the air format for digital TV, called Transport Stream (TS) format.

From Wikipedia: "TS is specified in MPEG-2 Part 1".

This should be your clue that most of these DTV systems (DirecTV at least, and I think the others) use MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 as the on-air format.

And from http://filext.com/file-extension/TS:

VOB files you find on a DVD are MPEG2-PS files. The PS format, however, is not adapted for streaming video through a network or by satellite. Another format called Transport Stream (TS) was designed for streaming MPEG videos through such channels. VideoLAN software can handle these streams.

@Richard Jukes :

> Correct me if im wrong, but were we not all doing that with PCI TV Cards many many years ago?

No , people were not "all" doing this in the past. And in any case, the patent (which I've not read) almost certainly does not claim the obvious "any scheme to record to a PC" but instead covers specific DVR features such as "watch while still recording" , "pause live TV", etc.

If you had a PCI card that did *all* of that before Tivo then you have a claim, but not otherwise.

Repo

Utter BS as usual with US Patents. #

Posted Tuesday 9th June 2009 19:25 GMT

I think I'll patent "A method of writing and/or drawing using an expendable graphite core enclosed in an inert sacrificial casing".

Pencil pushers of the world YOU ARE BELONG TO ME!!!

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