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back to article Torture case against Boeing subsidiary resuscitated

In a ruling sure to fan the flames of controversy over Bush-era torture policies, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals this week strongly repudiated the Bush and Obama administrations’ arguments of a broad reading of the so-called "state secrets" doctrine, which the Bush administration in particular had used to smother potentially …

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Torture connections

Jay Bybee, who signed off on some of the legal opinions used to justify torture, got the reward of an appointment to the 9th Circuit Appeals Bench.

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Sue 'em all!

So we are suing the company who provided the maps. Whoopee.

We need to sue the people who built the airplanes, the pilots and flight crews, the parents of the pilots and flight crews, the company which made the aluminum (or aluminium, as you prefer) the airplane was made out of, the companies that paved the runways, the people who trained the pilots and flight crews, Orville and Wilbur Wright who invented airplanes in the first place, Edison for his work on electricity and sound recording and anyone else even remotely connected with this situation, and anyone who enabled it to happen in the first place.

After all, the rights of these terrorist scumbag murderers are more important than ours, just ask the courts. I think we should fry them all, slowly, so it hurts a lot, and get serious and nuke the rest. I just don't understand why a group of religious maniacs whose stated purpose - and repeated actions - is to try to kill us all deserves anything better from us than instant nuclear obliteration.

Or is it better to let them kill us than for us to offend them in any way?

I say keep bombing the crap out of them until the situation improves, and the survivors (if there are any) not only promise to behave but actually DO behave - THEN we let them live.

If you don't hit back HARD when you are hit, you'll just get hit again. I'm tired of this namby-pamby PC bullshit - I want to darken the skies with the radioactive ashes of dead jihadi.

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Pirate

win/win

Maybe the executives involved in these decisions should be renditioned to someplace that is good at extracting confessions using torture? I'm sure there's a few countries out there who could bid on the contract. Seems to have worked for their backers, why shouldn't it be used for them?

They can even use their own flights and reduce costs.

Win/Win all around really.

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Happy

@Miami Mike

Hey! That was really funny - A most excellent imitation of your typical brainless, racist, scum-sucking, Bush-voting redneck. You got all the nuances just right. :-)

Oh! I just had a horrible thought...

Dear God! Please tell me you weren't actually SERIOUS!

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@Miami Mike

Is that a Yank stab at irony ?

sorry mate, you swallowed some horse shit there and it is making you talk like a proper turd.

I don't expect anything else from your side of the pond. You are an idiot and consequently more dangerous than a very dangerous thing. Or maybe it's OK for me to roast your family 'cos they're American an I don't like Americans very much today ?

Thanks to your war on Tourists, we in the UK have recently been flooded out with 1000's of kilos of very inexpensive but high quality Afghani hashish.

ALF

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@Miami Mike

You might be proud that your country tortures innocent people, but I'm fairly certain not many share your point of view.

Torture is illegal. There are no circumstances whatsoever that make it legal. It doesn't matter if the intelligence you were after saved lives, it's still illegal. Both US and International law admit no exceptions to the ban, no matter what the particular circumstances might be.

Torture is intrinsically wrong. It violates the physical and mental integrity of the person subjected to it, negates that individual's autonomy and deprives him or her of human dignity.

A categorical legal prohibition on torture not only reflects what decent people believe, but is also fundamental to the society we wish to live in and belong to. An absolute prohibition is also designed to prevent us from sliding down the slippery slope that would end in the use of torture in less than truly exceptional cases.

We should have enough pride in our moral values to stick by them no matter the risk to ourselves. It is cowardly to do otherwise.

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster."

-Friedrich Nietzsche

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@MMike - you're right

Bomb them terrorists all to hell if you want.... but they're in Afganistan and Pakistan.

Not in Iraq which is about 3000 miles away.

That's like bombing the Brits because you hate Ruskies....

- or-

Bombing the Canooks because the Mexicans gave you flu.

- or -

Bombing Noooooo Zealand because you don't like Fosters

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@ miami mickey taker

Well, I for one was not aware that every last person seized and tortured in these operations was subsequently found guilty in a court of law. In fact I was under the impression that the powers that be, did everything in their power and a few things that were not, to avoid any of these cases getting a normal fair trial.

And the beauty of it is, that while the innocents are getting tortured, your actual terrorist scumbags are still out there, still plotting, and still probably on the CIA's payroll.

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torture is such a bad idea

Here's why:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/torture-it-probably-killed-more-americans-than-911-1674396.html

The people responsible, all of them - from Cheney on down - need to be held accountable.

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Anyway ...

If what the US govt did was not shameful, why try to make a secret of it?

And secondly, doing bad things (and torturing people - or sending them off to be tortured by subcontractors - is pretty near as bad as it gets) cannot and should not be covered by state secrecy laws, because it will encourage the government to do other bad things.

The people that authorized this need to be brought to account. If they can present a defence, we should hear it and judge. But they can't just pass an executive order that it didn't happen.

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Boffin

American Irony...

"Is that a Yank stab at irony ?"

It must have been ironic - everybody knows that Orville and Wilbur Wright didn't invent airplanes; that was Sir George Cayley, in 1799....

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@Miame Mike

Your views and others like you will just make the situation worse as the whole point of the terrorists is to bring America down to their level. By ignoring the due process of law and proper moral and ethical standards America is basically acting like other less democratic countries - not a great way to go when you are the Greatest Country in the World according to God.

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@Miami Mike

Moron or Troll. Those are your only options.

'nuff said.

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Stop

The Wrong Targets?..

Drugs are a bigger threat to civilisation than terrorists, killing many more people and destroying many

more lives. We should be torturing those we suspect of drug dealing,

showing no mercy, rather than concentrating on terrorists.

Now, I've seen 'Miami Vice' and as Mike might, maybe, perhaps be from Miami he is obviously a violent, dangerous drug lord and

should be taken to a dark room by those decent, honest blokes in the CIA and as such

hit in the groin with a sledgehammer until he admits his crimes and tells us where

his speedboat full of crack is hidden. If he won't admit it then

obviously the sledge hammer is simply not big enough.

After all, why takes risks when our civilisation is at stake?

(Damn, it's so much easier to slay trolls in Baldur's Gate; with arrows of fire or acid)

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Coat

Outsourcing the Dept. of Data Retrieval

Anyone whose seen "Brazil" will know this is the most feared of government departments. It can leave you dead, brain damaged and bankrupt at the same time. They bill you for the electricity and staff time involved.

The data in question being the information inside the heads of suspected terrorists.

Obviously the owners of Jeppersen Dataplan have a sense of humour, or are merely ignorant of the connotations.

You can guess what DVD's in my pocket.

BTW IIRC 93% of all detainees at GBay were *not* picked up directly by US forces but most came though "Wanted" poster campaigns which offered c3 years local pay as a bounty for suspected terrorists. The thinking was that greed is a great human motivator.

I dunno, but if you were friendly with the local cops and had a neighbour you wanted to get rid of and pick up a big bag of cash for doing maybe you might be thinking about all those things you remember his saying.

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@Miami Mike

The kill count in this particular "war" rest rather heavily in favour of America. You are aware of that, right?

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Joke

@ Miami Mike

I think a career in the US diplomatic service beckons... Sheesh, where do they find them?

@Alfazed

> Thanks to your war on Tourists, we in the UK have recently been flooded out with 1000's of kilos of very inexpensive but high quality Afghani hashish.

It's certainly high quality, but not "Inexpensive". £100 an ounce down here! Nice to have a change from Rocky though. Reminds me of when the Ruskies invaded. Thanks George / Barack. ;o)

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@ Alfazed

"we in the UK have recently been flooded out with 1000's of kilos of very inexpensive but high quality Afghani hashish"

Now that IS good news. I loved that stuff in the seventies. Now all we need is for Lebanon to get its act back together. And Nepal.

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@Miami Mike

Wow. Really?

I'm glad you don't speak for most of us Americans, though it's bad enough you spoke at all.

If you didn't read Andy Brights post above, go back and read it again, and again, and again until it starts to sink in on you.

My family came to the Americas from England sometime in the early/mid-1700's. One of King Georges governors married a Southworth daughter. My family owned the first stagecoach stop on the coast to coast road in Michigan. We were some of the first pioneers to move West. I could go on and on, but the point is that my family has been here as long as just about anyone's, and I am big a patriot as you will find.

I am ashamed that anyone in this country thinks that torture is OK. I'm ashamed that my government instigated it, condoned it, and then covered it up. These people, no matter what their beliefs or what they have done, are human beings. They do deserve to be brought to justice IF they have done something wrong, but no one deserves to be locked away from public view and have their genitals mutilated.

You, sir, are an idiot. If yours is truly the prevailing thought in this country, maybe it's time to go back to England.

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Anonymous Coward

@Miami Mike

Works great in Isreal.

People like you (on both sides) are the caurse of such animosity and when I hear people like you prattle on I think that you're a cancer that should be seared from our society.

Of course you also sound like a troll so who knows.

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@Miami Mike

How about the UK bomb the hell out of the country funding terrorisum in the UK for the past 30 years? Pick up and tourture whoever we like because they "might" be terrorists? Violate international law and our own law to do this?

Itll probably never happen because I can bet there is a lockout on the Trident targeting system preventing them being fired at the US.

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Unhappy

@Miami Mike

Ok Troll, I'll bite...

"So we are suing the company who provided the maps. Whoopee."

RTFA - The CIA can't be sued directly, the only option is to go after one of the contractors.

"Or is it better to let them kill us than for us to offend them in any way?"

Well why might they be feeling offended? The illegal wars? The utter destruction of infrastructure? Dropping bombs on innocent civilians from 30,000 feet?

"If you don't hit back HARD when you are hit, you'll just get hit again."

I imagine Osama Bin Laden tells his followers exactly the same thing.

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sigh . . .

You guys are just tooooo easy.

Hook, line, sinker, half the boat as well (and unfortunately it isn't the crack-filled speedboat A/C refers to above - darn it.)

Next you'll probably want us to apologize to the Emperor over Pearl Harbor.

Oh, wait, we did. Twice.

ta!

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@miami Dunce

You're lucky the censorship on el reg has gotten way out of hand and my previous post was removed for some unknown reason.

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Black Helicopters

Third option

I don't wish to be overly negative, but aren't there three options for Miami Mike?

(a) moron

(b) troll

(c) moron AND troll

MIke the Moron Troll is peering east when he should be focused on west. Whether the tortured are terrorists and murderous bastards or not is utterly irrelevant (I suspect most probably are). What is relevant is the *other* set of murderous bastards claiming to be my government representatives and agents, and those who appear ready to do anything for a buck.

/black chopper because I feel a bit prescient today.

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@Torture is illegal

"Torture is illegal. There are no circumstances whatsoever that make it legal."

Not really. Not in the UK. Torture is routine and used by police services on a daily basis. Don't want to give a fingerprint on arrest, you'll be tortured until you do. It's much easier to inflict pain on a prisoner until they comply than it is to get sufficient officers involved to force them physically.

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@ People reacting to Miami Mike

Sense of humour bypass? I mean, some of you seemed to take it seriously!

What is wrong with you? An American picks up irony and whips your butts with it, then you complain about the look in his eye as he does it because he /might/ be a troll or half-serious. Hilarious!

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Torture is perfectly legal in the country in which it is allowed.

If these forms of interrogation were legal in the countries in which they were performed, then there is no case. If I, as a US citizen, go to such a country and I'm hired by that country to interrogate using their methods, that is perfectly legal both there and for me back in the US, because I didn't do anything on US soil.

If the offenders were not representing any country, then they don't even qualify for wartime treatment under the Geneva Convention, so they are really screwed and it is again, perfectly legal.

Remember, when Saddam and his sons were raping people and grinding them alive in huge trash compactors? Guess what, that was also perfectly legal for him and Saddam broke no US laws in grinding up as many people as he wanted. According to Iraq law, such things were perfectly okay and allowed prior to the US invasion.

By the way, that US invasion was also perfectly legal, as Saddam had signed a treaty saying that should there be any hostilities against the US others keeping the peace after the first Iraq war, that the war could be restarted and the US had the authority to take the country over. On an almost weekly basis, Saddam had his radar lock on our planes, a sign of hostility, according to the ceasefire.

So, you see, Saddam gave the US permission to take over his country however they saw fit. Hence, the latest Iraq war was perfectly legal under both US and Iraq law.

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re:Torture is perfectly legal in the country in which it is allowed.

What tosh!

If that was the case then why didn't GWB just tell the American people he'd have to invade because Saddam turned on his radar. Why did he have to fabricate the WMD crap?

GWB needed to do something that made it look like he was doing something. He had to find something to point the US military at. He needed a target and Saddam was good enough however he needed to make some vaguely credible reason beyond "he turned on his radar" or "he's a raghead".

Whether torture is legal or not is not really that important. in times of war when law is a bit flexible. What is important is that it generates really poor intelligence. The victim just says whatever makes the pain go away - truth or not.

Where are the great results that are supposedly provided by torture? Got Osama yet?

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@MiamiMike

For the love of crap I hope that was Ironic! If so to quote Stuart up there

"A most excellent imitation of your typical brainless, racist, scum-sucking, Bush-voting redneck. You got all the nuances just right. :-)"

If you are being serious, then... What can I say, you are the exact personification of what has gone wrong with America and the shocked, fearful western mindset that allowed the US's actions to be swallowed be the public in the name of 'National Security'.

Although you have the defence of not being in full control of your mental faculties, and of being brainwashed by the society you live in. There are still many who make the RIGHT choice despite this.

Jules.

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@MiamiMike

Hmm, looks like i have had a recent sense of humour bypass, must have done it last night, was drunk and can't remember much. Just listening to a repeating tape of funny jokes over and over and over again, until I grew to hate them. Phycosis I suppose.

Never mind, I guess this is truly an 'I'll get my coat moment'.

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Torture should be used...

... because it works, says the CIA.

A proof? They had to torture that Saddam croony 83 (or is that 183?) times. Now, if that doesn't prove the effectiveness of torture, I don't know what does.

Yeah I could also mention ethics and morality, but I doubt those thinking of favouring torture would bother reaching for the dictionary...

I could also mention the philosophical contradiction in wanting to enlighten of the world by stamping on all the lights you don't like, but hey, even my hamster didn't understand the concept, so how could they?

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@Charles Manning

"If that was the case then why didn't GWB just tell the American people he'd have to invade because Saddam turned on his radar. Why did he have to fabricate the WMD crap?"

Well, President Clinton pelted nearly 1,000 missiles into Iraq using the lock-ons and the failure to allow nuclear inspectors into Iraq as the justification. I would bet you didn't say anything negative to this severe action.

Intelligence that President Clinton had, which President Bush was given showed that Saddam had or would shortly have WMD. In fact, Saddam HAD chemical WMD over a decade earlier, which he used against his own people.

You liberals really need to get a clue.

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@Miami Mike

OK. Let's see. Grab one of Rumsfelt's kids. And waterboard them.

See "if a little water never hurt anyone".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/newzealand/5272771/Mother-drowned-during-Maori-exorcism.html

Fuckwitt, Dimwitt Mike. You're the best excuse for nuking america. Jeez? Need a better reason?

These yankee cunts are best for the world if they're off the face of this planet.

Israel? Nah. They're next.

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