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back to article Pirate Bay prosecutor argues for one year prison terms

The chief prosecutor in The Pirate Bay trial wants to see each of the four defendants spend a year in prison for running the BitTorrent tracker website. Håkan Roswall argued that the sentences should be handed to the four men accused in the case during a closing statement he made in the Stockholm district court this morning, …

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Paris Hilton

"A technical objection"

How can they define "technical objection" as not being relevant. Thsi is just saying that they cant sue the same to google because it index' torrent files because its too big and too powerfull. This is just picking on the little guys. Bullying tatics.

Paris loves TPB

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GAH hate title

he probably wouldnt car if they only spent a week in jail

It sets a precedent for the cases to follow

If PB win then all the sharers can keep on laughing at them

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Paris Hilton

First piracy now assault?

It's bad enough that facilitating the intention of considering the possibility of downloading copyrighted material is compared to Somali criminals hijacking cargo ships off the shore of Africa but worse that it should be compared to beating the crap out of someone. Next thing we know it will be worse than actually killing someone because we all know that when a movie/music/software producer can't get his daily fix of booger sugar the world stops turning.

Paris, 'cause right now she's the only thing standing between me and committing murder, or piracy or something

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Gates Horns

Sauce for the goose

umm, perhaps in the interest of fairness, if a firm of solicotors make an incorrect claim of file sharing piracy, they should also face a year in jail? seems a bit rich that they can make unsubstatiated allegations and effectively demand money with menaces, and get away with it.

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Coat

Wait....what?!

“The person who is holding a person’s coat while they assault someone else is complicit in the crime”

Huh? What?

*coat back please, i've finished beating up children while listening to my pirated music*

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Anonymous Coward

Excuse me?

"Danowsky also rejected the defendants' argument that people could download copyrighted material from other websites or search for torrent files using Google"

That's a wonderful demonstration of total halfwittedness right there.

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Bronze badge

@Captain Jamie (and zerofool2005)

What you appear to be suggesting is that it is sufficient defense to say "if I didn'tg do it then somebody else would". That may be true, but it doesn't make any illicit act etthically or legally acceptable.

The important thing here is the principle - either they were or were not intentionally involved in facilitating illegal activities. If they were (and that's for a court to decide) then it's surely no defense to say that they were just making it easier or more convenient.

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Nonsense

While I dislike the various record industry's tactics, what with suing 6 year old girls and grannies and such like, I really can't see how anyone can seriously consider the Pirate Bay as legit. It's not. Simple. It's purpose is to facilitate the copying of pirated stuff. Shit - they even call it "Pirate" Bay for goodness sake.

It reminds me of the interviews with The Shamen about their song 'Ebeneezer Goode'. In interview after interview they denied it had anything to do with drugs.

Of course, years later, when asked the same questions they answered "of course it was about drugs". And of course it was - EVERYONE KNEW it was. It was just convenient to deny it at the time (so that the BBC etc didn't take it off the air). Good song too :-)

The PIrate Bay is the same thing - everyone knows they're talking bollox when when they say "of course it's got nothing to do with piracy". Ask them all the same question in 20 years time when it's all long gone and all but forgotten about.

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Calculations

"He cited new calculations showing that the file sharing site brings in annual income of 10m kronor, after expenses had been deducted."

Translation: "I've made up two figures, one for advertising income per visitor, and one for number of visitors, and multiplied them together, then subtracted another made up sum for expenses. This proves they earned lots of money. Please jail them."

Classy.

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Black Helicopters

Of course the result is irrelevant

Once Wacqi Jaqui gets her way they will just send you a 'license demand' generated by PHORM.

Much in the same what they do with the TV Licence. Its all in the database. There is nowhere to hide!

Its a Win/Win solution. Media makers get PIratebay to distribute their works for free and then Phorm sponsored by Bank loving Labour will send you a monthly bill plus their Admin charge. That way you can download to your hearts content and never have to worry about a court summons. Just your monthly bill from PHORM./FoolLabour

Didn't I read somewere we aren't allowed to talk about (spy)PHORM. Is that a black Heli...............GULP

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Anonymous Coward

ISPs too

ISPs profit from selling higher bandwidth to people who pirate. I estimate it is measured in billions, so it follows that ISPs should be in prison for years.

Then there's the telecoms fibre providers, who profit from leasing fibre lines to those ISPs.

Then there's the CDR manufacturers, who profit from selling CDRs to customers who may go on to use them for piracy.

Then there's the cassette tape manufacturers like Sony vs RIAA.....

Oh wait, Sony are one of the movie studios behind this, erm, in that case, it's one rule for Sony when they're selling cassette tapes and one rule for Sony when they are selling movies.

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Anonymous Coward

searching for torrent files isn't illegal as far as I'm aware

so I have no idea what this moron is waffling about

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Google

The difference between google and TPB is that google actually does something useful. You don't prosecute Johnson & Johnson because some people use benilyn as a recreational drug. But you do prosecute crack dealers. Google aims to provide a legitimate service, TPB flaunts the law - apparently because it disagrees with it. Crack dealers doubtless feel the same way.

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Anonymous Coward

From the specific to the General

Grrr, I get wound up with high handed tossers taking a piece of legislation that's targeted at one unique crime and 10 seconds later it's used for everything, the worst was using anti-terrorism legislation to spy on dog owners to spot who wasn't picking up.

Either this needs to be stopped or each piece of legislation should have a "sanity check" where the stupidest imaginable uses of that bit of law are played out in a test case and the minutes submitted, the legislaton is then passed of rejected based on those test cases.

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Pirate

All pointless anyway

Doesn't matter what they do as once they stamp out the piracy they'll suddenly realise that everyone who does pirate actually would never have bought their damn products anyway!

This is what infuriates me. The made up figures by the industry about all the millions they "lose" to piracy, when in fact they have no evidence at all that if piracy was not an option, the consumer would actually have bought the product in the first place.

Worse than that, there is a likelyhood that in some cases some people do actually go out and buy the real thing or further products by the same artist, director, actor, etc. Especially in the case of pirated music which most of the time is so badly ripped anyway.

And then there's TV shows just broadcast.

What's the difference between using your VHS to record that TV show, or downloading it because you missed it? Hmm, yeah, adverts of course. Show me where in law it says you must watch the adverts.

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RE:ISPs too

That argument only works if Sony were selling DVDRW drives call "Pirate Drive" and came with a booklet showing the best car boot sales to sell fake DVDs.

The activitys of pirateb bay do not fall in to the same catogory as selling DVDRWs, no more than caliming that the government is at fault for someone speeding because they built the road, but equaly it is not in the same catogory as theft... Its a gray area, and I do wish people would stop using black and white anaogys to argue there case.

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Coat

Hey look at me

I'm holding someones coat while they assault a musician, er I mean, download music.

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Black Helicopters

@Rich

'I really can't see how anyone can seriously consider the Pirate Bay as legit'

Rich, that depends on your definition of 'legit'.

It is true that the pirate bay is used predominantely by people looking for torrents of copyrighted material.. But then king sized rizlas are bought almost exclusively by people that smoke canabis and I don't see Rizla in the dock for 'facilitating the taking of drugs'.

I studied law (although have been working in tech for a while now) and I really cannot understand how the prosecution thinks they can get a conviction here - As the law stands TPB have committed no crime so either they would need to change the law to specifically make linking to copyrighted material illegal (which means you are going to need a lot more lawyers as you will effectively be trying to criminalise Google, Yahoo, MSN etc) or they need to attempt to bullshit and make it seem as if the activities of TPB are somehow prohibited by an existing law, which is what they seem to be trying to do. Good luck with that lads.

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Andrew

The difference between google and TPB is that google actually does something useful. You don't prosecute Johnson & Johnson because some people use benilyn as a recreational drug.

No you make it harder to sell or tell J&J they cant sell it any more. Its happened to various asthma meds and now cold meds because they can be used to make meth.

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IT Angle

@ rich

Geared at Rich's comment:

Rich I believe your kind of missing the point which the Pirate Bay members are pointing out. Lets say there is a link on google which is indexed to an online MP3 file which is hosted somewhere else. Google linked me to the file and was the road map so to speak to allow me to find that file so why is the site which is hosting it the only one to be brought into court?

Convert that into this case....

Sure the piratebay's site may link to illegal content but so does google, yahoo!, MSN search and just about any other indexing search engine. The argument here is that the files and data are not housed on any pirate bay servers. You may personally see it as technical crap but at the end of the day it is a very big deal. A case like this sets the foundation for a lot of other cases in the court of law. The fact that the lawyers are dismissing the 4 main gentlemen in this cases' technical claims as just technical red tape is in it self as you put it a load of "bollox". The technical aspect of this case is above all the most important.

IT? angle....Simply because it seems it was lost somewhere along the lines with this case.

"Nonsense

By Rich Posted Monday 2nd March 2009 14:35 GMT

While I dislike the various record industry's tactics, what with suing 6 year old girls and grannies and such like, I really can't see how anyone can seriously consider the Pirate Bay as legit. It's not. Simple. It's purpose is to facilitate the copying of pirated stuff. Shit - they even call it "Pirate" Bay for goodness sake.

It reminds me of the interviews with The Shamen about their song 'Ebeneezer Goode'. In interview after interview they denied it had anything to do with drugs.

Of course, years later, when asked the same questions they answered "of course it was about drugs". And of course it was - EVERYONE KNEW it was. It was just convenient to deny it at the time (so that the BBC etc didn't take it off the air). Good song too :-)

The PIrate Bay is the same thing - everyone knows they're talking bollox when when they say "of course it's got nothing to do with piracy". Ask them all the same question in 20 years time when it's all long gone and all but forgotten about.

"

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Boffin

@Tony

There will be no conviction, and I'm pretty sure the prosecution know this.

What they will get instead is an international platform to protest at the current inadequacies of Swedish legislation, and show why it needs to be kicked into touch.

This isn't the end game.

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Thumb Down

Copyright extremists corrupting public morals.

There's a load of self-interested propaganda from the media brainwashing us every time we go to a concert or watch a film trying to tell us that stealing is like copying which anyone who has ever recorded a TV program knows is OK.

I bought a discounted DVD over the weekend . So what did I have to endure as a consequence of not downloading the thing for the first minute or 2 while it loaded ? Being on the receiving end of a load of propaganda and lies, that's what:

Spin: You wouldn't steal someone's car would you ?

Response: Never really thought about it. Now who gave me the idea that stealing cars was OK ?

Spin: You wouldn't break into someone's house would you ?

Response: don't give me ideas I never had.

Spin: It's the same as this if you download music or a movie.

Response: So breaking into people's houses and stealing their cars has become OK then ?

Stealing removes something from someone they had before it was stolen so they no longer have it afterwards. Copying is copying folks. It isn't stealing and it certainly isn't armed robbery on the high seas. It may technically be infringement in some situations and not in others depending upon the precise circumstances and where you live, but for that to hold up in the court of public opinion the lobbying described above is going to have to give a bit more credit to the intellectual capacity of its audience.

And since when did the commercial interests of those who benefit from copyright trump the privacy rights of those who don't ?

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Des

It's the end of the world as we know it

TPB is a torrent index, a torrent in itself is metadata, TPB doesn't host the shared files, so how can what they do be considered illegal?

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Bronze badge
Thumb Up

Should be good....

So when TPB gets screwed to the wall and the wonderful lawyers of the **AA finally get what they want, then the world will feel the frighteners and people will simply not bother with "da net" and will lower the amount they need from the ISPs, all they will need it for is email and looking up the weather.

What a crock, honestly! I know several mums round at my kid's school that all downloaded Bolt the day it appeared out there on the torrent boards! Normally they have no interest in "da net" other than email, bit of IM, some average browsing habits, but they soon perked up when they knew they could save £50 on cinema ticket prices, simply getting something for free!

This isn't just a bunch of geeks knocking off a few albums or the odd movie from some warez site anymore, this is absolutely enormous, the name torrent is duly deserved. Hell, I have lost count of the number times I have overheard people on the train talking openly about pulling down torrents to get movies and albums.

Sorry **AA, sympathies and all that, but the world is changing and you have better change with it, else you huge productions are going the way of T-Rex, it will be the rise of smal communities making art for art's sake.

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Stop

wait, did I miss the part

Where they actually settled on ONE charge against TPB? I thought they kept dropping and adding new charges (and how is that possible?).....

I'll have a little lie down now.

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Anonymous Coward

WHACK!

Mole. Mole. Mole. Mole.....

(*cough support filesharing & you are supporting the *ahem Nazi's)

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The technical objection

Unlike Gerhardt above, I fear there WILL be a conviction. Although it is clear to everyone here that the technical objection is actually the key point, it still falls to the defense to make the distinction and I suspect they haven't done so sufficiently well in words of one syllable for a non-technical judge to understand.

Time to invest in supplies of non-slip soap, lads.

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Silver badge

@ Rich and other "pirate" halfwits

I can search TPB for legit stuff. Actually I do quite often. The name has nothing to do with it. Stop being a moron please.

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Pirate

Exactly...

> This isn't just a bunch of geeks knocking off a few albums or the odd movie from some warez site anymore, this is absolutely enormous, the name torrent is duly deserved. Hell, I have lost count of the number times I have overheard people on the train talking openly about pulling down torrents to get movies and albums.

Recently when i've visited a shared house in London or a public hotspot and connected to wifi I've fired up WireShark and had a sniff of traffic flowing through the ether. Almost every network i've sampled has p2p traffic flowing through it - Gnutella, Bittorrent etc...

Floods of TCP packets representing music, movies, tv shows...

WHACK!

mole. mole. mole. mole. mole.....

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Coat

I hope they win!

I've been looking at the Pirate Bay's trial on www.local.se/piratebay on an almost daily basis (reading whilst eating lunch at work) - from what I can see this is a show trial and the prosecution have a poor case.

I personally think this trial should have been thrown out as the prosecutions evidence has been bad, they have dropped and added charges, etc.

I mean if I got arrested for shop lifting - would the police be able to change the charges in an english course on the fly like they have done in this case??

It would also be good if the Pirate Bay could get damages too but I maybe being a little too optimistic

Coat - cause I'm holding it for the Pirate Bay whilst they beat the prosecution to death with their torrent files...

Mike

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TPB

Just coincidence that the site is down at this moment (00:13, 03/03/2009)?

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Silver badge
Go

Ooh look, analysis!

http://torrentfreak.com/how-to-kill-the-music-industry-090227/

The real issue is whether it is reasonable to conclude that TBP can be held responsible for what the RIAA is accusing them of, whether it is actually prosecutable under Swedish law and whether the penalties are reasonable. If any of these are false, a jury would be quite right to let them walk.

Seriously, whatever your thoughts on snagging the latest game from sharers, if you are following "24" and you miss an episode, do you stop watching, accept you lost the plot or ask around at school/work to see if someone taped it? In many places, options 1 and 2 are legal, the third is "piracy". The problem for the RIAA/MPAA is that option 3 isn't unreasonable.

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Pirate

Made up Bank Figures!

If TPB is so illegal et all, why didnt the prosecution subpoena Pirate Bay's Bank Statements rather that come up with a piss poor revenue calculation based on advertisements served per click/user? WTF?

I could spend all night picking gaping holes in the prosecutions case. Its really really poor, shows gross misunderstanding in basic concepts of the Internet and generally lacking substance. Stuff they really shouldnt be getting wrong. Instead of the prosecutions strong torpedo attack we have a sequence of wet farts echoing the courtroom instead....

Lets face it, The prosecution have had A LONG TIME to do some homework, but the dog seems to have eaten it right before the trial ? These are supposedly Mega-Corps suing here...?

Its rather enjoyable following the sheer ineptitude of the prosecution.... Good for my 5 a day daily humour intake at least.

Do these 4 PB guys have actual day-jobs or are they dedicated to PB activities? I would guess they have average day jobs and judging by the html on the site its pretty basic, doesnt look like they spend an awful lot coding up stuff eh? Absolutely love the legal threat section. Quality!!!

Good Luck PB

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Happy

@Rich - Love the Ebeneezer Goode analogy - very apt

Very well put. (btw, Es are good - especially the very first one. Wow._

I can't see how they can be convicted. This trial is entertaning.

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Anonymous Coward

VCR?

"What's the difference between using your VHS to record that TV show, or downloading it because you missed it? Hmm, yeah, adverts of course. Show me where in law it says you must watch the adverts."

You mean the Digital cable PRV box that is controlled by the cable company that tells you what you can record, and how long you can keep it, and may even record stuff they think you might like? The box that can report back everything you watch?

It might be legal to record the show but you can't plug in a VCR...

Just like you can copy a movie to your portable player, but you can't break the DRM to do it.

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Wtf?

“The person who is holding a person’s coat while they assault someone else is complicit in the crime,”

Right I am suing FORD for every time a ford car has crashed, etc etc etc

I am suing GLOCK for every person shot using a GLOCK.

Utter rubbish, the same TORRENT files are available using the GOOGLE CACHE so are they being sued?

Wake up people, gone are the times when someone gets paid $30m for "Starring in a film" - Freetards forever!!

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Anonymous Coward

This is getting darker..

When I went to www.local.se this morning, all I got was a 'hacker' logo, which links to an 'ethical' hacking site. Yes, I concurr with Marc C above, TPB seems down (3/3/09 at 08:55 Swedish time). Judgement already? These Nordic countries don't mess aout. When I lost my driving licence sometime ago, the prosecutor demanded 3 months before the hearing, that I get a 7 months ban. Guess what? The hearing was set to PRECISELY 7 months after I lost it....Foregone conclusion, I guess.

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How are they breaking the law?

http://www.ukbumpkeys.com/cat_Lock-Picks_25_index.php

The above site sells lockpicking equipment, these tools allow burglars and thieves to break into houses, and carry out illegal acts. Yet they are not breaking the law. This is no different to PB.

PB does not contain on its site, or transport in any way shape or form, copyrighted material. The only illegality is on the part of the person owning the PC that makes the MP3/AVI available for download. If PB is illegal then Google has to be the biggest illegal download pirate/paedophile/terrorist/virus ditributing criminal on the planet, and when can we expect to see a criminal prosection.

Oh, and out of interest which is the best method for searching for torrent sites? I guess I'll google the answer

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TPB update

Site back up again, maybe maintainence

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@ the fuzzy wotnot

People talk about downloading movies/music openly because it is not wrong. The law and the system are wrong. The RIAA/MPAA know this, they are the wounded dog in the corner lashing out and scrambling to make something while they can, to hoodwink people that they are still needed.

Copyright and other intellectual protection is there to give artists/inovators a fair return but mostly to stimulate creativity. Not to profiteer and so some record company fatcat can buy another range rover.

We arn't just seeing illegal downloading, but things like mashups, individuals recutting movies to make them better, people making their own sequels, etc. All of this is illegal but good. Sharing and building on information is the future and the sooner the law realises this and catches up the better.

Unfortunately this world is run by greedy business executives and governments only interested in the addition to their GDP that it gives rather than the benifit to society that this blocks.

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Open Letter to the IPFI;

This just about covers my feelings on the matter;

The Pirate Bay Farce, I mean trial‏

From: Alan Fisher (xxxxx.xxxxx@.xxxxcom)

Sent: 03 March 2009 11:53:27

To: euroinfo@ifpi.org

Dear IFPI,

using a variety of sources, including your own website, I follow this debacle with an increasing mixture if interest and wide-mouthed disbelief. I do not download using the site in question but, like all IT professionals, have heard of them and am sure I know a number of people who avail of their services.

I find the IPFI's apparent desperation to bend the legislature in order to ensure they do not lose this trial (let's face it, if you do it does make your organisation a bit suplus to requirements) when it is clear to any other person following the case that there is not a case to be answered.

I can thus far see the following;

1). Håkan Roswall, your chief prosecutor, is playing the emotional aspect, as well as the layman's lack of technical details, up to his projected advantage. This reeks of deperation and is unpleasant to read about. Surely this is not the face your organisation wishes to present to the world? If we are to look to you for our copyright interests, I do not feel encouraged.

2) The Pirate Bay might have, slightly, indirectly, somehow, facilitated someone to provide someone with the possible, likely, potential means to maybe infringe copyright. Why the persuit of these men continues escapes me. Mr Roswall's reasoning again lapses into what I call "Law and Order Mode" or "Hollywood lawyer mode"; I feel he is going to seek the prosecution of knife manufacturers and gun manufacturers next? Afterall, their products are produced with the implicit purpose of the cause of harm are they not? One does not use a gun, or purchase such in order to prop up a shelf now does one? One purchases said firearm in order to discharge it. Therefore the blame is upon those who supply to the demand is it not? They profit from it also, considerably so. By your Organisation's reasoning, this is the path we should take. Can I quote you on that stance?

If I cannot I must ask why, should you be successful in this prosecution, why not? If the precendent applies for one, surely it must apply across the board? Will you be seeking manufacturers of recordable CD/DVD media next? They supply the means to copy the products of your members afterall. How about ripping/burning software? The list does go on so I would most humbly request the answers to the following questions;

1). Do the views Mr Roswall expressed in the media comply with those of the IFPI?

2). Does the IFPI, should they obtain a judgement in their favour in this case intend to expand the list of people they seek to prosecute?

3). Would the IFPI advocate full application of the precendent Mr Roswall seems to be putting forward?

4). Does this potential precendent meet with the aims of the IPFI as an organisation?

5). How far does the 'net' the IFPI wishes to cast go? What other activities will be classified as potential copyright infringements in the future?

6). Is providing the means an actual crime?

thank you in advance and I look forward to recieving a promt and well-considered response.

Regards

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I dont deny TPB isnt clean.

But surely its a case of whether theyve broken the law, not whether they have good morals or not.

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Coat

@VCR

Have you never heard of the PVR projects? I site as an example:

http://www.cadsoft.de/vdr/

I built one of these and marvelous they are too. I can pause 4 channels of live TV as soon as something I want to watch comes on. I NEVER watch live TV - I always record it. Then I can press the blue button when an advert comes on, jump 20 seconds, repeat until the advert is finished and continue to watch the program.

I don't think I am breaking any law doing this. I suppose technically I am missing the point (actually, I am missing the adverts) of commercial TV, but I don't choose my washing powder by some tosh Ainsly Harrison is advertising and Jonny Rotten pretending to be an English Gent teling me about butter is never going to change my mind (well, it might - I will switch to Lurpak in protest).

But I could miss adverts anyway - just switch to the Beeb when they come on and switch back 20 seconds later

My committment is to pay my TV license fee. It is not to watch adverts.

Now I finished being a TV Freetard, could I have my coat please? And no, I don't want all those advertising flyers you stuffed in the pocket, thanks.

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Re: VCR?

Your all singing and dancing latest technology PVR might DRM you out of recording, but the old school basic cable, freeview and satellite boxes don't have that problem, got a DVDR and VCR plugged in between the cable box and TV and both have no problems.

Isn't the advancement of technology wonderful.

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