back to article Scots and pilots brace against ID cards

The Home Office is seeking parliamentary approval to extend the scope of identity cards for non-European nationals, while opposition to the scheme increases. The UK Border Agency said on 13 February 2009 that Parliament will vote on secondary legislation which would mean that many foreign nationals who seek temporary leave to …

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Bronze badge

wtf?

"The UK Border Agency said that it has made three successful prosecutions for leave to remain by deception as a result of the cards" -

Of course their previous technique of taking fingerprints and comparing them to see if the applicant has made previous attempts to enter obviously didn't work. I notice also that although they have a whopping three successful prosecutions, it doesn't say the people involved were deported as they are probably being hosted at the taxpayers expense in HMP Hilton with three meals a day etc etc etc and then on release they will disappear into the 'grey' economy'.

Here's hoping that the current financial Circus Maximus brings down Mr Brown so we can have an election resulting in a new government which simply refuses to waste any more of our money on pipedreams. I believe that is scheduled to happen the day after I win the lottery jackpot two weeks in a row.

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lets see...

3 arrests in 3 months - lets extrapolate that to, for the sake of a nice round number, the next century.

1200 arrests per century. For 5 billion quid. What a bargain.

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Black Helicopters

And an ex MI5 chief....

Dame Stella Rimmington has now gone on record with the following:

"It would be better that the government recognised that there are risks, rather than frightening people in order to be able to pass laws which restrict civil liberties, precisely one of the objects of terrorism - that we live in fear and under a police state," - Dame Stella Rimmington

BBC Article : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7893890.stm

Lets see Wacqui Jacqui argue against *that* one.

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wow

3 prosecutions - and that is out of how many cardholders ?

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Black Helicopters

What a bargain!

"The UK Border Agency said that it has made three successful prosecutions for leave to remain by deception as a result of the cards, which were introduced in November last year."

So, at a cost of £310m (5.11bn - 4.8bn), they have prevented 3 illegals. Brilliant; stunningly good value for money.

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Well worth the money then

"The UK Border Agency said that it has made three successful prosecutions for leave to remain by deception as a result of the cards"

WOW! Three!!

Well that certainly makes it worth £5 billion.

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IT Angle

Huge Result

3 Successful prosecutions??

Oh ffs.

How much did it cost to catch these 3 offenders in total then?

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Bronze badge

even if people did actually get them

They would just leave it at home like they do with all other important documents

e.g. drivers license etc etc

its a british thing i guess

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Stop

First They Came for the Scots

First they came for the Scots

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Scot.

Then they came for the pilots

and I did not speak out

because I was not a pilot.

Then they came for the postgraduate doctors

and I did not speak out

because I was not a postgraduate doctors.

Then they came for me

and there was no one left

to speak out for me.

(many apologies to Martin_Niemöller)

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Hold on, just for a year

Look, we get the chance to vote out Wacky Jacqui, "Prudent" Gordon and the other deranged lunatics within the next 14 months or so. Neither of the other two realistic parties will keep the cards anyway.

Good on those who delay it just a little bit longer...

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Pirate

Oor Bill Wallace once seid:

.......tell oor enemies that they may take oor lives, but they'll na take... OOR FREEDOM!

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Anonymous Coward

Net loss vs net gain

Seems to me that the net loss caused by the ridiculous and oppressive border control cost Britain more than any net gain.

So you stopped 3 people illegally working, is that even a net gain? Even without the billion it will cost to make this border control system? Even with companies avoiding the UK because you treat their non-EU staff like crap? There's somehow a net gain to Britain to blocking 3 window cleaners from making 3 quid an hour with a billion dollar system employing tens of thousands of bureaucrats?

Seriously, you're reduced to printing money, like Zimbabwe does, you have leader that is not elected, like Zimbabwe, you ban people from entering the country like Zimbabwe. You arrest opposition MPs like Zimbabwe, you have a secret police like Zimbabwe.

You're the Zimbabwe of the Europe!

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Flame

o rly

3 prosecutions vs 4.8 - 5.1 BILLION POUNDS, congratu-freak-a-fucking-lations, talk about serious return on investment, clearly Nu-Lav aren't wasting our money at all, and of all the people that should be getting these abominations first it ought to be the fucking cunts who are trying to force this shit on the rest of us!

Nu-Lav FUCK OFF.

Anonymous, because soon this will be the only place we can be.

Fire, because that's where my ID card will be going the day it's issued.

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Flame

A few things

1) it is not, and it has never been, "the Scottish Government"; it is "the Scottish *Executive*". And until such times as they declare independence, that is how it will remain. They can call themselves "the High Poombas of the Hills" if they wish, but legally they remain "the Scottish Executive". El Reg - it is high time you brought some rigour to your reporting rather than just regurgitating everyone else's PR garbage.

2) The Scottish Executive has no authority in the matter, it is not devolved. It is a Westminster issue and unless Scotland declares independence, they will have to follow the law like everyone else.

3) It is exceedingly rich for the Scottish Executive to bemoan government spending, when they preside over a province that is wholly dependent on subsidy, has soaring unemployment and more that 50% of employed people working for the state. In fact, Scotland would probably benefit from the system as so much governmental work takes place up there, jobs having been shifted North to save money and try to get a few more scroungers off the dole.

As to ID cards themselves...they do not concern me. The whole "ID card" thing is just a distraction anyway, it is the database. Westminster will probably ditch the card at the 11th hour and while all the hair-shirt types dance in their socks, the database will come in anyway.

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Black Helicopters

Ah, the reek of desperation

Ah, the reek of desperation to get at least some of it implemented before it gets canned.

All those friends to please, all those promises to keep..

It's all getting rather pathetic, really...

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Black Helicopters

Getting worse....

This is actually getting quite scary.... The government is forcing these things onto people, it is becoming blatantly obvious that they are going to be compulsory (in a backdoor sneaky way) and yet the mainstream press seem to have totally ignored the issue......

At least the Reg is keeping us informed, NO2ID needs to get thier media arm in gear!!!!

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Happy

Yes ...

We will resist. Big time.

The idea of ID cards in Scotland are about as popular as a fart in a spacesuit and the populace is generally sick and tired of having cock-a-fucking-maimie social experiments foisted on them first as a test of how well it will/won't go down in England and Wales.

Up here, THIS SHIT WON'T FLY, ok?

Speaking of which, good for the Pilots!

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Boffin

And before the cards?

Presumably no-one was prosecuted for "leave to remain by deception".

$5bn seems a small price to pay for catching 10 people a year. Just imagine how many other burdens on society were prevented from receiving health care.

Citizens of the world rejoice!

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Pirate

Will Westminister call the SNP terrorists?

As an expatirate Scot with a strong dislike of the SNP, I am pleased to hear that they are doing something right - even if I suspect that the reason they are doing it is because they want to upset London!

Still, I suppose upsetting the government is actually a good idea. They work for us, not the other way round!

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Black Helicopters

Papua new guinea pig

I'm going into the depths of the Orwellian labyrinth that is the UK Border Agency on Thursday to renew my ancestral visa and I won't be suprised if they force this tab keeper on me. I'm already having to pay £595 for the pleasure so why not another £30, they'll say.

I'll say, "stick it in your grandma" and promptly be deported. Democracy at its best!

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Have I missed something?

"These successes demonstrate the effectiveness of biometric checks in tackling immigration abuses and reducing illegal working."

Somehow they managed this despite what we've been told recently that there are no card readers.

So who's telling the truth?

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Coat

rap talk or wat ?? :O)

well, like it or not wacky jacky smith is gonna have to start payin attention to objections to her (and the one eyed scotsman's) proposed orwellian state plans, these peeps and the likes of Dame Stella Rimington (ex head of MI5) exposing their plan for what it is, see here :- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7893890.stm where stella states :-

"It would be better that the government recognised that there are risks, rather than frightening people in order to be able to pass laws which restrict civil liberties, precisely one of the objects of terrorism - that we live in fear and under a police state,"

up to now its only been the unwashed masses that have been vocal in this area, these are the first volleys from any 'big guns' that our proposed police state has had to deal with, 'thunderbirds are go, go, go !!!!!!!!' WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT :O)

this is gonna be soooooooooooooooooooo good to watch, lets face it if these crazy notions can be delayed till the next election, the problem will die a natural and deserving death O_O

mines the one with the false nose and glasses and wig :O)

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Coat

yayyyyyyyyyyyyyy let battle commence :O)

well, like it or not wacky jacky smith is gonna have to start payin attention to objections to her (and the one eyed scotsman's) proposed orwellian state plans, these peeps and the likes of Dame Stella Rimington (ex head of MI5) exposing their plan for what it is, see here :- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7893890.stm where stella states :-

"It would be better that the government recognised that there are risks, rather than frightening people in order to be able to pass laws which restrict civil liberties, precisely one of the objects of terrorism - that we live in fear and under a police state,"

up to now its only been the unwashed masses that have been vocal in this area, these are the first volleys from any 'big guns' that our proposed police state has had to deal with, 'thunderbirds are go, go, go !!!!!!!!' WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT :O)

this is gonna be soooooooooooooooooooo good to watch, lets face it if these crazy notions can be delayed till the next election, the problem will die a natural and deserving death O_O

mines the one with the false nose and glasses and wig :O)

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Anonymous Coward

wow!!!!

three successful prosecutions!

for only an estimated £5.11 billion pounds!!

I defy anyone to prosecute three other foreign nationals for less!!!

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AC
Stop

I for one

will be in jail before I hold an ID card or pay any fines levied for not submitting my details to have said card.

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Three successful prosecutions

So let's see, £4.8bn divided by 3 = £1.6bn per successfully prosecuted illegal immigrant. If that is what government considers good economics then something tells me this country has more to worry about than three people living here and illegally paying taxes.

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Stop

Bye-bye ID cards

The more I read about the coverage of these hated things, the more I realise - and am reassured - that they will be this government's Poll Tax! And if they have any intelligence at all they'll realise it too, and either pull them, or be pulled down with them.

Move along people, nothing to worry about here...

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So...

... we have the Scots and the Pilots saying no. We have Dame Stella Rimington objecting to the Government's "culture of fear", we have the International Commission of Jurists condemning ill thought out, knee-jerk anti-terror laws and what is our Government's response?

Answer: "We don't give a toss what anyone else says, we're doing this anyway."

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Coat

A Wee bit of an embarrassment to El Gordo then?

As he is MP for a Scottish Constituency....

When will this shambles of a Government get it into their collective heads that WE DO NOT WANT THIS....

Roll on the next election

Mines the one with the rigged ballot box in the pocket as that is going to be the only way Nu Lab are going to remain in charge....

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Anonymous Coward

money for old rope

The ID card has cost 4.7 BILLION, although there are no card readers at present. Duh. It is claimed that three foreign nationals have been caught through the use of these cards, so far. Does the government, I use the word loosely, really believe that this is value for money? This will be StasiLabour's Poll Tax, although I suspect they are a doomed party already.

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Stop

WTF?

"people seeking private medical treatment, domestic workers and retired people who support themselves financially, plus their spouses and children"

WTF !!?!?!?!?!?!?

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Anonymous Coward

Eh?

"those who will be required to supply their fingerprints and apply for a card will include ..... people seeking private medical treatment"

Can somebody please explain why you should have to apply for a card if you want to seek private medical treatment.

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Stop

<Title></Title>

"What happens when the first airport worker refuses to register for an ID card?"

He'll be heralded as a hero by the people :)

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caught with the card

I would like an explanation of how they would have slipped thought the net before the card was introduced. or is this an example of "we caught him out side the bank cos of cctv instead of inside the bank when he puled the shotgun"

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Yes Minister

There is an episode of "Yes Minister" (Big Brother) worth watching about the ID card system. Hilarious, if not so utterly depressing, given it's almost identical in concept. And Yes Minister is 20yrs old, FFS.

C'mon Sir Humphrey, your country needs you!

Anon, while i still can.

PS - as a Scot, I'm hoping this goes the way of the poll tax. Ie the encumbent government gets its ass handed to it in comprehensive style at the next general election, and this dies a quick, horrible death. We scots like our FREEDOM!, ta very much.

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Anonymous Coward

@Hold on, just for a year

It's not enough to simply vote them out. After they've pissed all over democracy and rights, and we just vote them out and they leave for a fat job with the biometrics/surveillance industry? Personally, I'd like to see a nice witch hunt, like they did to Ted Stevens.

Look at Blair, he just received a $1 million 'prize' from an Israeli foundation. If they call it a prize then they have a ceremony and the gloss of respectability, if they just handed him the money, it would look like he'd taken an inappropriate bribe while supposedly being an impartial negotiator in a middle east conflict just after a major attack on the Palestinians by the Israelis.

Jacqui Smith will no doubt get some lucrative consultancies given the amount of government cash she's sloshed around. Perhaps they'll call it a prize for her services to democracy or something.

Blair wins prize:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jaozAGUCGPsTg4SpBGh1P_A13sTw

Dan David Foundations links to Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_David_Prize

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RE: A few things

Smoe other Anonymous Coward wrote: "1) it is not, and it has never been, "the Scottish Government"

Someone should maybe tell them that then. Look at the title of their home page: http://www.scotland.gov.uk

AC, you're about 2 years out of date!

We still don't want ID cards though and our Government is taking a pretty dim view of the idea. We're not daft here in Scotland (and we don't want to spend money unless we have to!)

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re:yes minister

pendent mode

actual the ep you mention did not have id cards it only had a big data base called the national integrated database there where id cards mentioned (ironical they where called Euro pass and where going to be European id cards) but it was in "the writing on the wall"

pendent mode cancel

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Boffin

Re: a few things

To the Rt. Hon. Mr Coward:

By all means call them the Scottish Executive, but since the BBC + other assorted media call them a government, the Scottish electorate call them a government (well, outside of a few rabid Tories), and why even the eerily Skeletoresque Jim Murphy, Scottish Secretary to Brown's own rebranded bandwagoning band of buffoons calls them a government -- you'll be the only one doing so.

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Crime and punishment.

Resistance is futile. Electoral punishment on an unprecedented scale is the only answer. Bury them for the next fifty years.

Just don't waste your time scanning the election manifesto of the incoming Tory administration for the the bit that states "we will revoke all the repressive measures inflicted on the British people by the previous government", because it ain't gonna happen.

But just think how good you are going to feel, having exercised your last remaining right to punish the greedy self-serving bastards who brought this country to its knees.

Total number of criminal offences created by NuLabour affecting private citizens = 3600

Total number of criminal offences created by NuLabour affecting businesses and financiers = 0

Do the math.

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Paris Hilton

@Kevin Johnston

"being hosted at the taxpayers expense in HMP Hilton "

Erm, that's not Her Majesty Paris, is it? I'll have a room if it's not occupied....

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Stop

Haha, no card for the jocks as they have a Government

11 Any move for production of an ID card to be a condition of a public service which is within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament would require authorisation by an Act of the Scottish Parliament.

The act says if the scots dont want it, they dont pass the act !

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/en/ukpgaen_20060015_en_1

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@ Eponymous Cowherd

Sadly the government's response to Stella Rimmington is all too predictable:

'Dame Stella is entitled to her opinion, but it is worth repeating that Parliament has repeatedly expressed its desire to uphold the government's manifesto commitment to the introduction of biometric identity cards.

'Since Dame Stella's tenure in the security services, the situation has changed dramatically and the government has had to adapt new strategies to deal with - no you must let me finish - we have secret evidence of illegal immigrant Taliban pilots who want to upload our childrens' copyright-free naughty bits on to the Interweb...'

After that Hazel Blears' eyes will start spinning and you'll doze off into a nice sleep.

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Anonymous Coward

@AC 13:09

> Can somebody please explain why you should have to apply for a card if you want to seek private medical treatment.

In case you want to make your nose bigger, or in case you want to make your nose smaller, etc, somebody needs to know.

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Re: A few things

@AC 16:11

"Scottish Government" is just a piece of PR branding, they are legally the "Scottish Executive" as they do not have the powers (nor the mandate from the people) to act as a government. There is only one Government in the UK, and it sits in Westminster. The fact you do not know thins speaks volumes about your understanding of politics in the UK.

If the Scottish Executive wish to call themselves a government, they should have the balls to declare independence and then my taxes can stop subsidising them and their over-spends.

"We still don't want ID cards though and our Government is taking a pretty dim view of the idea. "

Wrong. Your GOVERNMENT loves the idea. The GOVERNMENT revels in it. It is your GOVERNMENT'S baby. This is because your GOVERNMENT sits in Westminster. Your little Executive (in their over-priced gang-hut) does not like the idea and is trying to gain some PR points by blowing raspberries. It is a matter in which the Executive has no say, only the Government may decide on it.

@Gerhardt

Then I shall be the only one who is correct. Until such times as they declare independence of course and stop feeding off the UK's (read: England's) taxes.

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Re: yes minister

"Pendent mode"?

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Joke

for the want of three illegal emmigrants

.. the shipment was late.

For the want of a timely shipment,

repeat orders were lost.

For the want of repeat orders,

new plant investment was deferred.

For the want of new plant,

economies of scale were not forthcoming.

For the want of economies of scale,

business went abroad.

For the want of indigenous industry,

the economy went tits up

(traditional)

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I am retired and etc.

"The government's secondary legislation, if passed, will mean that from 31 March 2009 those who will be required to supply their fingerprints and apply for a card will include postgraduate doctors and dentists, academic visitors who are staying in the country for more than six months, people seeking private medical treatment, domestic workers and retired people who support themselves financially, plus their spouses and children."

What a mottley collection with no obvious thread of connection or particular risk to the citizens of this country or, indeed, the rest of the world. And exactly what do the government mean by retired people who support themseves financially?

What danger does an old fogey represent. However, he or she is a good catch all as his or her family is drawn into the system, which in my case will be a further ten people 'obligated'.

My reaction: What a load of bull. I got this far without blowing up the Houses of Parliament but it does increasing seems like a bloody good idea.

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Boffin

Re: a few things

Hang on, I thought calling it an executive was the PR move?

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Pirate

@ AC ranting about Scotlands taxes

We'll stop claiming what the UK Government say we can when we get the back payments due to us for raping our natural resources

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7890226.stm

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